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I have nothing but respect for the work done by both @Advantageand @InstantRockstar, but shouldn't these positions be used as an opportunity for those who haven't GM'd before? These are essentially "entry level jobs" that we're filling with individuals who have multiple years of experience.

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With @Hylands and @Ricer13 Leaving the M to go to the VHL we have two new positions open for Miami and Mexico City.    With out further ado,    Who is going to be GMing Mexico Ci

We've been having a fun discussion and looking back through history since the start of S75 to see if vets are actually taking opportunities from first-gens/newer members. From S75 (or whenever @Hex Un

I have nothing but respect for the work done by both @Advantageand @InstantRockstar, but shouldn't these positions be used as an opportunity for those who haven't GM'd before? These are essentially "e

1 minute ago, flyersfan1406 said:

I have nothing but respect for the work done by both @Advantageand @InstantRockstar, but shouldn't these positions be used as an opportunity for those who haven't GM'd before? These are essentially "entry level jobs" that we're filling with individuals who have multiple years of experience.

I can respect the mindset, 100% I do kinda feel the same way. That being said my goal *was* to get into the VHL and GM there, however after both times of unfortunately missing out on the opportunities, I couldn't resist trying to get to come back and this was the perfect opportunity to go back in. I likely wouldn't have even stepped down if I thought there was 0 possibility of me moving up, but I got proven wrong. 

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7 minutes ago, flyersfan1406 said:

I have nothing but respect for the work done by both @Advantageand @InstantRockstar, but shouldn't these positions be used as an opportunity for those who haven't GM'd before? These are essentially "entry level jobs" that we're filling with individuals who have multiple years of experience.

 

I think it's a tough line we are in with this. In principle your right and I agree with you. But we aren't in the old times where if you wanted a VHL GM slot you could just easily get one. EVERYONE wants one. So are experienced long time GM's just shit out of luck since they aren't meant for VHLM opportunities? I think you could probably make an argument on a case by case situation. 

Edited by Devise
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1 minute ago, Devise said:

 

I think it's a tough line we are in with this. In principle your right and I agree with you. But we aren't in the old times where if you wanted a VHL GM slot you could just easily get one. EVERYONE wants one. So are experienced long time GM's just shit out of luck since they aren't meant for VHLM opportunities? I think you could probably make an argument on a case by case situation. 

 

I mean, you already know my stance on this RE: the timeline on GM opportunities, and this is a large reason why.

Edited by flyersfan1406
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Just now, flyersfan1406 said:

 

I mean, you already know my stance on this RE: the timeline on GM opportunities.

 

Right but this is a specific instance where these cases make a lot of sense don't they? ADV was FISTED ANALLY BY A CIRCUS MONKEY a GM spot when we retracted Cologne and for personal reasons stepped down a season when he was given the Malmo expansion job. It wasn't his intention to never GM again. IR stepped down as VHLM GM directly because he wanted to pursue a VHL GM slot. With how competitive those applications have been, he's been waiting many seasons, so he has decided to scratch the GM itch and return to the VHLM. 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Devise said:

 

Right but this is a specific instance where these cases make a lot of sense don't they? ADV was FISTED ANALLY BY A CIRCUS MONKEY a GM spot when we retracted Cologne and for personal reasons stepped down a season when he was given the Malmo expansion job. It wasn't his intention to never GM again. IR stepped down as VHLM GM directly because he wanted to pursue a VHL GM slot. With how competitive those applications have been, he's been waiting many seasons, so he has decided to scratch the GM itch and return to the VHLM. 

 

 

 

 

I'm not going to publicly comment on the specific situations of each member out of respect for them (since they are definitely qualified), but just reiterate that these VHLM GM jobs (in my opinion) should primarily go to newer members who have not gotten the opportunity to do so.

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3 minutes ago, Devise said:

 

Right but this is a specific instance where these cases make a lot of sense don't they? ADV was FISTED ANALLY BY A CIRCUS MONKEY a GM spot when we retracted Cologne and for personal reasons stepped down a season when he was given the Malmo expansion job. It wasn't his intention to never GM again. IR stepped down as VHLM GM directly because he wanted to pursue a VHL GM slot. With how competitive those applications have been, he's been waiting many seasons, so he has decided to scratch the GM itch and return to the VHLM. 

 

 

 

This basically says it. We do like to give these to new guys - look at the past several hires. It's just that these two guys in particular were in a unique position and we've done this to alleviate that position. There were several new guys in the final rounds of the decision process, and many of them will get roles in the future, but these two were in situations where it was a bit different than "just hire the old guy"

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4 minutes ago, flyersfan1406 said:

 

I'm not going to publicly comment on the specific situations of each member out of respect for them (since they are definitely qualified), but just reiterate that these VHLM GM jobs (in my opinion) should primarily go to newer members who have not gotten the opportunity to do so.

 

So which is preferable for older members? VHLM jobs or VHL jobs? My understanding is that VHL jobs have been weighted toward newer members so we don't see the same people in the league GMing from Season 30, which is a refreshing change, but if you do that you can't keep things exactly as they were in the VHLM or there's nowhere for older members to get jobs ever? Having a blend of both in both leagues would probably make the most sense and that seems like what we've got going right now?

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5 hours ago, InstantRockstar said:

I likely wouldn't have even stepped down if I thought there was 0 possibility of me moving up, but I got proven wrong. 

This statement is frustrating to me because it echoes of the same issues with the "application" process that I've found with becoming a GM in this league. 

 

4 hours ago, Devise said:

 

I think it's a tough line we are in with this. In principle your right and I agree with you. But we aren't in the old times where if you wanted a VHL GM slot you could just easily get one. EVERYONE wants one. So are experienced long time GM's just shit out of luck since they aren't meant for VHLM opportunities? I think you could probably make an argument on a case by case situation. 

I get this argument on some level though to use a hockeyism for it, you make your own luck. It's kinda difficult to put out a thread for applications and speaking from experience I know who is getting the spot as soon as I read who has applied.

 

4 hours ago, diamond_ace said:

There were several new guys in the final rounds of the decision process, and many of them will get roles in the future, but these two were in situations where it was a bit different than "just hire the old guy"

Again, speaking from just my experiences in trying to get a GM position in this league, you feel like you're fighting an impossible battle and often it feels like the decision of who gets the spots are determined more by who people like than anything. I applied for everything and flat out wasn't even approached for a Q&A or anything. @Quikwas the only one with at least the common decency to message me to say I didn't make the shortlist. And while I can be upset that I wonder what exactly excluded me from a shortlist when I was never even approached about my inquiry, at least I got that. These other positions, basically I'm left feeling like I was left out entirely. I feel like an explanation of the "decision process" would be nice for those who feel they get left out of not only the VHLM but VHL GM spots regularly. Because to be honest, when you have a long tenured member who was/is a VHLM GM saying that they have no chance of being a VHL GM, that's a flawed process on a fundamental level.

 

 

I guess to close and I feel sick that once again I have to be that guy who "complains" about something, I'm happy for all who got positions both in the VHL and VHLM. I think at this point I'm looking for more explanation in general as to how these decisions are made.

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Huh, I must've missed the job posting thread. That's too bad, I was hoping to apply for the Miami job.

 

I love the ADV pick, and I love IR as a person, but quitting one job to go get another is a 'no going back' type of move to me. If I quit my job to go get a "better" one and then didn't get it - especially after they already hired my replacement - I know I'd get met with a "too bad, so sad, shouldn't have given up the good thing you had." Respect to Ricer for staying with Miami during the Calgary process, showing that he wasn't "VHL OR BUST" and still had respect for the M. After all, how much time does it take to 'pursue' a VHL job? Certainly not so much time that you have to quit your M job. Oh well, I trust the commies to make good decisions so I'm sure they had good reasons.

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11 hours ago, Jericho said:

 

So which is preferable for older members? VHLM jobs or VHL jobs? My understanding is that VHL jobs have been weighted toward newer members so we don't see the same people in the league GMing from Season 30, which is a refreshing change, but if you do that you can't keep things exactly as they were in the VHLM or there's nowhere for older members to get jobs ever?

 

I mean, I'm not going to get into specifics about who was hired for any of the recent GM openings in either league, and why people were/weren't hired, but this is abjectly false, and I lean far closer to Flyers' take that these M jobs should be going to newer members.

 

WRT the VHL jobs, there is no weighting of newer vs. older - that's a ridiculous take and a minimization of the process. At the end of the day, we're looking at members who are active and contributing to the league now, whether they've been here 10 months or 10 years is merely an afterthought. Member history is considered, sure, but that applies to everyone, not just long-term members, and something from long ago does little in the way of changing someone's chances, in either direction.

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2 hours ago, Quik said:

 

I mean, I'm not going to get into specifics about who was hired for any of the recent GM openings in either league, and why people were/weren't hired, but this is abjectly false, and I lean far closer to Flyers' take that these M jobs should be going to newer members.

 

WRT the VHL jobs, there is no weighting of newer vs. older - that's a ridiculous take and a minimization of the process. At the end of the day, we're looking at members who are active and contributing to the league now, whether they've been here 10 months or 10 years is merely an afterthought. Member history is considered, sure, but that applies to everyone, not just long-term members, and something from long ago does little in the way of changing someone's chances, in either direction.

 

That's funny because I've heard contradictory statements to both of those takes from several well established members. Wonder how ridiculous it really is...

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The "newer members should get M GM jobs over vets" take is an interesting one, one that I can kinda see both sides of. I think recent hiring history shows that the M has not shied away from hiring first-gens as GM's. Myself, Ricer, Hylands, Thad, Rory and Zetterberg are just a few of the first-gen hires that we've had recently (past 5-6 seasons). At the same time, I don't think a newer member should have some kind of priority over an M job than a veteran user. Being an M GM is not easy, because most of what we do has to retain folks and teach them as well. I don't think it's wise to just be setting M jobs for first-gens and VHL jobs for veterans, because both leagues have vastly different requirements and day to day tasks for the GM's. I don't know if I'd even call the VHLM GM position an entry level job because it's a massive undertaking that gets far less recognition than it does. But I digress.

 

With that being said, I think we should focus more on the AGM positions and getting new members into those positions so that they receive the exposure and experience they can then translate into going for a GM job at either level. I think that's the real entry-level job that we should actively be trying to give to newer users. AGM's directly learn and develop the skills needed to be a GM at the respective level, or even just get some experience in management.

 

At the end of the day though, IR and ADV are active and passionate users who will do very well at their jobs in the M, and I'm looking forward to working with them!

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5 minutes ago, Jericho said:

 

That's funny because I've heard contradictory statements to both of those takes from several well established members. Wonder how ridiculous it really is...

 

Define several.

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6 minutes ago, Jericho said:

 

That's funny because I've heard contradictory statements to both of those takes from several well established members. Wonder how ridiculous it really is...

 

I mean, unless that came from one of Bek, Beav or myself, those "well established members" are wrong.

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I mean there is definitely a move away from experienced GMs in the VHL, but with how many newer candidates we have, I understand it.

 

That being said, having experienced members bringing along and developing new members (the point of the league) I think isn't something that should be shamed either with so many AGM opportunities on top of the VHLM GM spots and International Opportunities like WJC.

Edited by Advantage
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At the end of the day--two members who have proven themselves more than capable of running a team and helping new players have been hired to run teams. That, by itself, is a good thing and something we shouldn't get upset over. I can feel the "you're taking a job away from new people" drama brewing already in VHLM GM chat, as dramas there tend to do, and I think that it's shameful if anyone tries to put down either person hired here based on that argument.

 

I do agree that VHLM GM hirings should see newer members at the very least prioritized. That does not mean that we should never hire anyone experienced; it just means that VHLM GMing is, for a lot of people, the first real running-a-team experience there is in a sim league. That's valuable and it shouldn't be overlooked. So, for that reason, if someone with a ton of experience were to apply with me as commish, I'd look at the pool of newer applicants and see if there was someone who I really want. In that case, new member gets the job, older member who I know will do a great job but might not be learning much becomes the person who I'll hire in the next one or two openings (not someone who I'll ignore altogether, fwiw).

 

That said, I don't know what the hiring process was, I don't know whether I agree with it or not, I don't know who else was considered, and I also recognize that it isn't my place to know all the information. I agree that it isn't the best look for new members to go 0/2 here, and I'll admit that I raised an eyebrow at that even though I'm confident both of these teams are in good hands. I just hope that those who weren't hired don't feel discouraged from continuing their interest in VHLM jobs, and that those who were don't see themselves alienated or guilt-tripped by people (other GMs included) who think they don't belong in their positions and should not be a part of the VHLM community.

Edited by GustavMattias
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7 minutes ago, GustavMattias said:

I can feel the "you're taking a job away from new people" drama brewing already in VHLM GM chat

We've been having a fun discussion and looking back through history since the start of S75 to see if vets are actually taking opportunities from first-gens/newer members. From S75 (or whenever @Hex Universe joined the league) to today, we've recorded 18 hirings to VHL/VHLM GM/AGM positions. We made a nice breakdown of how it shapes up:

 

VHL GM:

1 First-Gen - Hylands

1 Veteran - Ricer (2nd player about to get drafted)

 

VHL AGM:

5 First-Gens - MattyIce, Ledge, Brewins, Selsby, Domg

1 Vet - Poptart

 

VHL GM:

3 First-Gens: Rory, Zetterberg, Thad

2 Vets: ADV, IR

 

VHLM AGM:

6 First-Gens: Hex, Juice, Tina, Selsby x2 (yeesh this man be zooming around), Prout for a brief stint.

 

Total breakdown, from S75 onwards, 15 out of 19 GM/AGM hirings have been First-Gens. I really, really do not think this is cause for concern lol. 

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