Can we have a constructive conversation about the BoG?

[dasboot 521]

I bet there’s a BoG thread telling all members to assemble in this thread to defend the board. Look forward to not reading that in the next update 

[Advantage 2,769]

1 minute ago, dasboot said:

I bet there’s a BoG thread telling all members to assemble in this thread to defend the board. Look forward to not reading that in the next update 

Classic.  Need a bigger tinfoil hat?

[Jericho 917]

3 minutes ago, dasboot said:

I bet there’s a BoG thread telling all members to assemble in this thread to defend the board. Look forward to not reading that in the next update 

[dasboot 521]

4 minutes ago, Advantage said:

Classic.  Need a bigger tinfoil hat?

Yes you just hired the guy that stole mine 

 

[Advantage 2,769]

3 minutes ago, dasboot said:

Yes you just hired the guy that stole mine 

 

Auditioning?

[dasboot 521]

Not interested 

[Gustav 6,081]

Fishy: asks for information

 

BoG: gives information

 

Community: oh look the BoG is posting in this thread, this must be a conspiracy!

 

 

I don't know when the BoG existing turned into a hot-button issue and it's become clear that way too much is going to be interpreted as some sort of plot to destroy everyone who isn't a part of it (I know this seems like I'm calling out Boot here in particular and I am to some extent but I'm speaking more in general terms than anything else, I like you boot). So when saying anything is going to be pointed out as an act of conspiracy, and so is not saying anything--can anyone understand why reading through things that criticize us in a non-constructive way might be a bit frustrating?

 

This is why I'm saying this debate is a two-way street--I want to help the community and so does everybody else. I want to listen to constructive criticism and so does everybody else. Points that aren't points at all but are rather just "lol stupid BoG is dumb and bad" accomplish neither of those things.

 

Sorry if my brain sounds a bit fried here, it just is at the moment.

[Rayzor_7 741]

Before I go on my little tangent/opinion piece I'll say it for y'all: Oh look a GM and Ex-BoG member who's part of that asshole Seattle crew

Okay with that out of the way

 

A lot of what I was going to or wanted to touch on was already done or touched by another great member in the likes of Beketov, Gustav, Devise and so forth but I'll go anyways.

 

"I think the BoG should be abolished or at least drastically downsized" ~Dmax

So I don't really get this. BoG is an advisory role. Blue Team has 100% power (unless somethings drastically changed) and can ignore BoG if wanted. That said the tendency was to find a middle ground. Size of BoG should be kept to sub 15 imo and it is as such atm (from my count).

 

"as a regular everyday user, can have even a tiny bit of input to be made into consideration" ~Jiggs

You can and do. What can be public is public. You could chime in on the BoG update threads or open up a suggestion thread. I'm sure you want to hear you can have more direct but it's nye impossible to open it up without giving the entire league an option. 

 

"we just got an update in February. And, well, quite a bit has happened since then" ~Fishy

Touched on by another member but I'll reiterate. Yeah we had 4 GM changes and a commish step down. Historically BoG had some ability to input suggestions but commissioners have the final shortlist and final say. I can't speak on anything else but doesn't seem like much else would be going on atm

 

"It's literally a group of individuals who are able to have focused discussions about possible changes to the league. Key word is "focused" - there's a reason that not all discussion or decisions is opened up to the league at large. It becomes much harder to stay on topic and keep a focused conversation about a single topic." ~Flyers(?)

To put it simply: Fucking Ditto

 

"I bet there’s a BoG thread telling all members to assemble in this thread to defend the board" ~Dasboot

Based on history there wouldn't be a thread but it would be mentioned/discussed. But never encouragement to to go *Defend the BoG from the public*. Just what can/should we do to understand/address what's going on

 

"This is why I'm saying this debate is a two-way street--I want to help the community and so does everybody else. I want to listen to constructive criticism and so does everybody else. Points that aren't points at all but are rather just "lol stupid BoG is dumb and bad" accomplish neither of those things." ~Gustav

Again just one I want to Ditto on and reinforce

 

So for my little TLDR:

BoG is not perfect and never will be. It's a conglomerate of minds who are used as opinions to help Blue Team make a final decision. They are advisers and had only have power on HOF and Awards really.

BoG isn't out to get you or anyone else

BoG's "We've discussed that before" is actually true almost every single time. I've been there and been through the entire history of what's accessible to BoG. There's not much that hasn't been suggested before. BUT, that's not to say that those suggestions should be dismissed. There are times in the past we had told someone it's been suggested before and then brought it up internally to run it through again in a new capacity to confirm it doesn't make sense now as did it then.

 

BoG get's shit on and thrashed far more than is needed and I don't understand where all of the hate sprouted from. They're good people and do their best to improve and help manage the league as a whole through their input.

[Josh 1,597]

4 hours ago, GustavMattias said:

so someone who's nominated for a BoG job will presumably be someone who's respected and well-liked

 

lmao how did I get in???

[Gustav 6,081]

2 minutes ago, Josh said:

lmao how did I get in???

 

Stop making me support the public candidate voting process smh

[dasboot 521]

I was just taking the piss I don’t care who’s in it or what the bog does 

[Dom 1,440]

I think there is issues with public votes as well, first one being the barely active members who don’t even know what they vote about.

 

second one being the followers, there would always have members who vote like their friends did.

 

third one being the trolls, do we really need meme votes?

 

forth one being that it would be unbalanced between players, GMs and staff. Yes its good to have voices who are not staff or GM but public vote is a clear majority for players.

 

fifth one being popularity votes. Some people would win awards that they don’t necessarily deserve just because they are the cool guys.

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Domg5

[Gustav 6,081]

41 minutes ago, dasboot said:

I was just taking the piss I don’t care who’s in it or what the bog does 

 

I kind of figured, glad I made the point in general anyway since there are people who would think what you said unironically. 

[Victor 10,525]

This is not a response to fishy, who I think has received good detailed responses already...

 

But for those who like to be more blunt, maybe stop and think how much shit you want to give unpaid volunteers who don't make any decisions. 

[BOOM 8,401]

 There's trillion dollar corporations with less board members

 

 

Such as? 

[bigAL 2,176]

21 minutes ago, BOOM said:

 There's trillion dollar corporations with less board members

 

 

Such as? 

[DMaximus 1,045]

I appreciate all the responses in this thread. I think the point of the greatest ambiguity for me was "what does the BoG decide on?"

Based on the responses here, it sounds like the correct answer is nothing. The BoG simply exists as a private discussion forum with the intention of suggesting ideas/decisions to the commissioners (or blue team? Is there a difference?).

To prevent this conversation cycle from reoccurring, that should be explicitly written out somewhere.

 

I think the BoG's primary focus should be on long term, big picture stuff. Things like, what does the ideal VHL look like if we had all the money and time in the world? What areas can be improved (mobile apps? discord bots? more automated TPE claiming? more forum integration with the portal? layout/design changes to the forum? ways to increase member engagement for new and old members?) Which of those things (or others) should be an immediate focus? Do we have what we need resource wise to accomplish those things? If not, what can we do?

The BoG should come up with some goals and lay out a road map to get there. Share that with the community and let everyone help get us there.

[DMaximus 1,045]

2 hours ago, BOOM said:

 There's trillion dollar corporations with less board members

 

 

Such as? 

Apple - 8 member board - https://www.apple.com/leadership/

Amazon - 10 member board - https://ir.aboutamazon.com/officers-and-directors/default.aspx

Microsoft - 15 member board - https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Investor/corporate-governance/board-of-directors.aspx

Alphabet - 11 member board - https://abc.xyz/investor/other/board/

 

VHL - 20 member board - https://vhlforum.com/topic/1069-vhl-board-of-governors

 

[bigAL 2,176]

Just now, DMaximus said:

Apple - 8 member board - https://www.apple.com/leadership/

Amazon - 10 member board - https://ir.aboutamazon.com/officers-and-directors/default.aspx

Microsoft - 15 member board - https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Investor/corporate-governance/board-of-directors.aspx

Alphabet - 11 member board - https://abc.xyz/investor/other/board/

 

VHL - 20 member board - https://vhlforum.com/topic/1069-vhl-board-of-governors

 

I think that’s an argument for less people on the board?

[Quik 4,113]

So yeah, not sure how much I can add that hasn't already been brought up, but here goes...

 

As several have alluded to, there is no strategy of keeping people in the dark just because. Most discussions in the BOG are about potential avenues of helping the league, and whether or not they're feasible/worth implementing. Some make sense and end up happening, others don't and aren't brought to light because there's no reason to have people be up in arms about something that isn't happening. Just as an anecdote, someone did find out about a discussion that was taking place, and messaged Bek and myself asking if it was true, because it could have negatively affected their enjoyment of the league. This is exactly what we're trying to avoid, because the issue they were asking about was brought up only in passing, and never really had a chance of being implemented - yet, this user still thought enough to ask about. Now amplify that to the entire league: it would form more negative opinions and anger, unnecessarily, all because it was discussed.

 

It isn't a paid job, so there's not always something to update: as Victor said, it's a group of people volunteering their time to the league in hopes of maintaining/improving it. Recently, the big talk has been how to deal with potential roster room issues, something that started before the whole live sim incident, and continues to be discussed today.

 

This entire league is meant to be a fun pastime, it is nobody's first priority in life or source of income. While we strive to do our best, there will never be a strict governance over the league with rigidly defined roles and bylaws, because, at that point, you're asking people to give more to the league than realistically possible, and even those who believe they can/will maintain that standard will burn out and lose interest. Ask anyone who has been commissioner, and they will tell you that they entered the role enthusiastically, but it isn't some glory role (heh) that is taken on because it's fun and makes things easier.

 

At the end of the day, whether the general populace of the league believes it or not, the Blue Team + BOG are doing their best to make sure things continue to run smoothly. We aren't ignoring people - the entire live sim incident, if not started on a fair or right footing, shows that - we aren't trying to fuck people over, we're doing our best to keep this place running without causing issues that can become catastrophes down the road. While people think they have the answers to all the league's problems, there is truth to the meme that the league has discussed most everything that is brought up, and there's a reason why most of it has not been implemented. If it's something that didn't happen because it wasn't possible in the past but is now feasible, of course we're open to it, but the key is it has to make sense.

 

As for the people who complain that BOG is in here defending themselves, that's what happens when people attack the BOG endlessly without reproach, which, I find interesting because the individual members in the BOG are widely respected members, as well as a mix of both newer and older members, so even the OBC memes don't make sense when I count 8 members who have joined the league since S60 (aka are on their 2nd, maybe 3rd, players in the league at most).

 

I agree, there needs to be a two-way street of respect, but it needs to start somewhere, and the amount of attacks on the BOG as a whole, and its integrity, are wholly unfair to the members in it, and start the entire discussion on the wrong footing. I think it's clear that, in some members' eyes, there is no correct path for the BOG that will maintain the integrity of the league. Open polls for BOG members will lead to meme inductions or members being hurt because the community doesn't want them for one reason or another. League-wide polls/discussions on league business will end up in massive shouting matches, ultimately going nowhere, or leading to a league that might work today, but down the road will end up collapsing and requiring more solutions to these "solutions".

 

Ultimately, the league has operated for nearly 14 years now, so while, yes, there needs to be adjustment to grow with the current generation and not strictly rely on the workings of the past, I think there also needs to be a bit of an understanding and trust that it's carried on for a reason, and those who are running it understand what works, and aren't just running it blindly.

[DMaximus 1,045]

5 minutes ago, bigAL said:

I think that’s an argument for less people on the board?

 

That is what I said should happen. The BoG should be drastically reduced in size. I'll rescind my call to have it abolished.

[Quik 4,113]

24 minutes ago, DMaximus said:

Based on the responses here, it sounds like the correct answer is nothing. The BoG simply exists as a private discussion forum with the intention of suggesting ideas/decisions to the commissioners (or blue team? Is there a difference?).

 

This is incorrect. The BOG discusses and ultimately decides as a group. Bek and I have final say on some things, but if the BOG is in full agreement, we aren't preventing any decisions from becoming official.

 

24 minutes ago, DMaximus said:

I think the BoG's primary focus should be on long term, big picture stuff. Things like, what does the ideal VHL look like if we had all the money and time in the world? What areas can be improved (mobile apps? discord bots? more automated TPE claiming? more forum integration with the portal? layout/design changes to the forum? ways to increase member engagement for new and old members?) Which of those things (or others) should be an immediate focus? Do we have what we need resource wise to accomplish those things? If not, what can we do?

 

Yes...this is how the BOG operates

[rory 1,759]

i think there should be more non-GM members  

[bigAL 2,176]

9 minutes ago, DMaximus said:

 

That is what I said should happen. The BoG should be drastically reduced in size. I'll rescind my call to have it abolished.

Yeah but everyone else on here is arguing for everyone to be on the governance committee (either by abolishing it or opening every BoG discussion to the public for unfettered input). 
 

Alphabet works because they have a handful of people with experience, ideas, and a strong understanding of what a board does and doesn’t do. Those 11 people shoulder the burden of future problems which allows the managers and engineers and project developers to do their jobs and solve the present problems. People love working at Google because of the work they do, and don’t stress too much about who should be the next CEO or what to do about an upcoming competitor. 
 

The same goes here! Let the GMs GM, let the commissioners commission, let the players play. Do what you get enjoyment from here. And when there’s a problem, especially one that negatively impacts enjoyment, we’ve seen that people are not afraid to write a media spot about it or post in the suggestions thread (hi rory and gorlab and bobabi and and and). That’s awesome! The board is made up of active members (just regular ol members like you and I). Because they’re active members, they read everything. When something gains traction out here, it gets discussed in there. 
 

7 minutes ago, rory said:

i think there should be more non-GM members  

I think it was Shawn Glade who raised this point earlier this year and it’s a good one.  

[FrostBeard 1,974]

So, I am going to chime in...

To me the league organization stuff has never been an issue, I have been here since the start of March, 2019. I saw the league grow, I saw so many changes from head scratches to amazing, game improving ones. I don't think we need more transparency for BoG as BoG is as transparent as they can be. WIth ADV producing BoG updates when there is stuff to talk about. 

Also, when it comes to the people in BoG, I don't see any need to get more or less people on it - people that are there deserve to be there for either their long terms contributions or amazing activity lately. Surely, there are more and more people willing to help the league and be there when any decision is made but I guess we all just have to show our best, give suggestions on forums and see what BoG can use out of all that. By making quality discussions we can create enough information for BoG to use to improve the league.