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1 Week TPE Ban


Hogan
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WHY:

 

On November 20th, at 6 PM Atlantic time, I received a DM from @tfong. The DM was about a post I had made under an alt account during the S79 draft stream. The draft stream occurred on July 18th 2021, 124 days prior to the report. I had joined the stream on a twitch alt and started acting like I was somebody else (a non-existent member or player). I had then said a few small things like “have I been drafted” and “my player is Willy Langston” (made up name on the spot). My next two sentences were the ones that got me in trouble. I said “im in minors” “are you in to minors”. An obvious offensive and stupid joke that I made. 

 

After asking for an appeal for reasons I will later mention, it was denied.

 

MY THOUGHTS: 

Obviously I was wrong. It was a stupid joke that I shouldn’t have said. But why was the report made now? @Beketov stated “I believe what fong meant was that people didn’t quite grasp the reporting system beforehand. “. Anybody who has been in the league for any amount of time would know if they really cared or needed to report anything to just send it to Fong. It is my belief that I was reported not for the benefit of the league, but because somebody wanted me punished. I cannot go into heavy detail about this but from what I’ve heard it was a certain member. A certain member who doesn’t like me and has perfect reason to want to see me punished. It just seems like a big coincidence that I would have a dispute with a member and within 24 hours I am being reported for something that happened 4 months ago that hasn't been mentioned publicly since September 22nd of this year. Of course I cannot know if it was the member I think, but a lot of things line up.

 

In July, I was playing for @Esso2264 in New York with Tanky. When the incident happened I was not on my current max earning player. I truly believe my report was based purely on getting me punished and hurting my current player and my reputation instead of benefiting the league. Either a member has been sitting on this screenshot for months or looked for it purposefully. The chances of stumbling on the 2 month old conversations in VHL general are highly unlikely. The only way in which somebody could’ve found out is if it was casually mentioned, which is possible.

 

4 MONTHS:

 

Of course what I did was bad, but to be punished four months later is a stretch to me. In May 2021, I called for all posts containing slurs to be removed. Mod team agreed with my idea and said they’d get on it. When I went back to look if they had been deleted in July the majority of them hadn’t. I then went back and reported over 100 posts myself of members saying slurs. These members included current GM’s, former GM’s, staff and mods, as well as regular members. Are they to be punished for things they said however long ago it was? In May 2021, I was banned pending investigation. The reason I was banned was for posting real screenshots of current VHL members saying slurs in a server created by Penny in which he invited many VHL members. This prompted an investigation and me getting unbanned. 

 

A high ranking member said  “that was a secret discord server where everyone was purposely saying bannable shit. How dare you release it!” Now whether this was sarcastic or not I do not know. But they are clearly showing that they know for a fact what they said as well as the others was wrong at the time. 

 

If you join any VHL VC the likelihood of somebody dropping the R slur is there, I’ve heard it more than once myself. Members have been allowed to have inappropriate names in the past such as Keven Foreskin, many Penis’, Cum and more. Are these members to be punished? To me the answer is no, but it seems to others it is yes. 

 

I should have been punished at the time, the joke crossed a line that I attempt not to cross. I believe it should’ve been brought to my attention, issuing a warn and notice that if I do something again I will be punished harshly, but I do not believe in a late punishment such as this. 

 

Overall, I do not know what this post is about. I just wanted to make it clear to members that the situation happened long ago and promise that I won't do it again. And I also want to make it clear of my disagreement with the punishment, as well as the fact that I believe the report was issued maliciously. 

Edited by Hogan
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Reporting/banning someone for infractions that occurred multiple months prior does not seem proactive at all.  Clearly this is an example of someone having a personal vendetta against you, and grasping at straws to find anything you’ve done in the past to get you punished.


I hope that this doesn’t become a trend going forward for the mod team, and that situations can actually be reviewed properly and rationally.  This instance was far from relevant at this point nor was it dealt with timely.  If any ban can be appealed I’d like to believe that something like this falls under that jurisdiction.  Anyways great media spot and you laid out your case pretty well, and your writing here surprised me lol.  9/10

Edited by v.2
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These are my thoughts exactly. I don’t mean to sound biased, being one of the people who needed slur posts deleted, but if mods are going after old incidents, they’re going to become very busy very quickly. 
 

If old incidents are punishable, and that’s the precedent they want to set, that’s fine I suppose. But in that case, they shouldn’t single out members like this. Suspend me and every other old who used to post Fs and Rs and even Ns like it was nothing. Lord knows there’s much worse dormant offences than Hogan’s goofy baiting. 
 

If the mods aren’t going to suspend at least half a dozen olds, then they should reconsider your appeal. This suspension is a little too arbitrary as it is.

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I am usually not the one to come in to these conversations to say anything but here we are. 

Honestly, this ban is a complete disgrace to what the Code of Conduct should stand for, if this warrants anything, especially after 4 months, it is a warning and a message saying: "Stop acting weird lad, some might not understand you are are making stupid jokes". Minor offences should be used as a teaching ground rather than a punishment and that should be the case always because punishment leads to resentment that in the end doesn't improve the overall climate in the league but just makes everyone feel like they can't say anything. 
 

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  • Commissioner
55 minutes ago, JardyB10 said:

but if mods are going after old incidents

 

This was like 2 edit:4 months ago according to the report (S80 draft not S79 but regardless...). The CoC came out like 2 years ago, which established the same rules on baiting that we reiterated recently. Long story short, it's a false equivalence to state that you should be suspended for stuff that you did when rules weren't codified vs us needing to remove this tiny TPE ban.

 

Seriously, it's a TPE ban.

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1 minute ago, Josh said:

 

This was like 2 months ago according to the report (S80 draft not S79 but regardless...). The CoC came out like 2 years ago, which established the same rules on baiting that we reiterated recently. Long story short, it's a false equivalence to state that you should be suspended for stuff that you did when rules weren't codified vs us needing to remove this tiny TPE ban.

 

Seriously, it's a TPE ban.

Can we give him a real ban for posting a Media Spot then? ;) 

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  • Head Moderator
43 minutes ago, JardyB10 said:

These are my thoughts exactly. I don’t mean to sound biased, being one of the people who needed slur posts deleted, but if mods are going after old incidents, they’re going to become very busy very quickly. 
 

If old incidents are punishable, and that’s the precedent they want to set, that’s fine I suppose. But in that case, they shouldn’t single out members like this. Suspend me and every other old who used to post Fs and Rs and even Ns like it was nothing. Lord knows there’s much worse dormant offences than Hogan’s goofy baiting. 
 

If the mods aren’t going to suspend at least half a dozen olds, then they should reconsider your appeal. This suspension is a little too arbitrary as it is.

 

Its a a TPE ban. Its not an actual suspension.

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4 minutes ago, Josh said:

 

This was like 2 months ago according to the report (S80 draft not S79 but regardless...). The CoC came out like 2 years ago, which established the same rules on baiting that we reiterated recently. Long story short, it's a false equivalence to state that you should be suspended for stuff that you did when rules weren't codified vs us needing to remove this tiny TPE ban.

 

Seriously, it's a TPE ban.

Im pretty sure it was S79, Fong told me it was and I was busy during the S80 draft with my own stream

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1 minute ago, JardyB10 said:

Can we give him a real ban for posting a Media Spot then? ;) 

 

I see nothing wrong with this media spot. He's pointing out some real problems which hopefully our moderation overhaul will address over time. 

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1 minute ago, tfong said:

 

Its a a TPE ban. Its not an actual suspension.

My overall point is the same, I just can't read. I am soothed somewhat by Josh's post, knowing that there's at least some kind of chronological cutoff, BUT STILL

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2 minutes ago, Josh said:

 

I see nothing wrong with this media spot. He's pointing out some real problems which hopefully our moderation overhaul will address over time. 

Me neither, I was just joshing you, pun intended. He can only be banned if he tries to claim TPE for it, I understand.

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  • Commissioner
25 minutes ago, Beaviss said:

can we get an explanation on how far comments are the past are punishable? If so I gotta go deep diving for previous comments I probably have made. 

I’m not saying there’s a direct line but basically if it was against the rules at the time but squeaked past then it’s less than ideal. If the rules weren’t in place then we aren’t retroactively going back just to punish people for things that weren’t against the rules at the time.

 

Even if we ignore the CoC (which was in place at the time) there’s the old “quit being trolling dicks” rule from like 4 years ago.

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I think it's about time we find a new way to handle these bans. Let's bring something ineresting to these simulation leagues. Look what the Paul brothers are doing. They are great athletes who have lifted the status of boxing as a sport. Their fights bring millions of people in front of screens. Why can't VHL now use boxing as a marketing tool? The sport has never been as interesting, thanks to the Paul brothers. 

 

Hogan and whoever this anonymous reporter is should step into a ring and beat the shit out of each other. Stream it. Weeks and months of trash talking on social media before the fight. Create memes on social media. VHL logo into everything. Think about the number of new users VHL would have just from the hype alone. Then the fight.

 

I would pay good money to see the fight. Loser of the fight has to make winners point tasks for at least two weeks. Bans/suspensions will be lifted if they agree to take the fight.

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4 minutes ago, jRuutu said:

I think it's about time we find a new way to handle these bans. Let's bring something ineresting to these simulation leagues. Look what the Paul brothers are doing. They are great athletes who have lifted the status of boxing as a sport. Their fights bring millions of people in front of screens. Why can't VHL now use boxing as a marketing tool? The sport has never been as interesting, thanks to the Paul brothers. 

 

Hogan and whoever this anonymous reporter is should step into a ring and beat the shit out of each other. Stream it. Weeks and months of trash talking on social media before the fight. Create memes on social media. VHL logo into everything. Think about the number of new users VHL would have just from the hype alone. Then the fight.

 

I would pay good money to see the fight. Loser of the fight has to make winners point tasks for at least two weeks. Bans/suspensions will be lifted if they agree to take the fight.

yes and beaviss should be the referee that was paid off by the mob to not call penalties. I truly believe this is the best course of action for the entire VHL.

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1 hour ago, jRuutu said:

I think it's about time we find a new way to handle these bans. Let's bring something ineresting to these simulation leagues. Look what the Paul brothers are doing. They are great athletes who have lifted the status of boxing as a sport. Their fights bring millions of people in front of screens. Why can't VHL now use boxing as a marketing tool? The sport has never been as interesting, thanks to the Paul brothers. 

 

Hogan and whoever this anonymous reporter is should step into a ring and beat the shit out of each other. Stream it. Weeks and months of trash talking on social media before the fight. Create memes on social media. VHL logo into everything. Think about the number of new users VHL would have just from the hype alone. Then the fight.

 

I would pay good money to see the fight. Loser of the fight has to make winners point tasks for at least two weeks. Bans/suspensions will be lifted if they agree to take the fight.

Not to leak private conversations, but I was saying to @Horcrux earlier today that we could start resolving conflicts with Yu-Gi-Oh duels instead.

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TL;DR: Gustav talks about 1984 and whatnot.

 

Honestly this is the most civil "complaining about being punished" posts I've seen and the fact that (by admission of some higher-ups) it points out legitimate issues is good. Usually when someone is punished and wants to complain about it--even if they're right--it comes across terribly, and more often than not they're straight-up wrong. The couple posts made by Penny about this, for anyone who remembers those, are examples of this, where someone admits no wrongdoing and just makes themselves look worse.

 

This is not that. @Hogan is being civilized for once and tells a story far different from the outright misleading (we'll get to that later) post in the ban thread. And what's happened here sets a dangerous precedent that could get ridiculous if the mods and the member base don't check themselves.

 

Point 1: Yes, this was against the Code of Conduct at the time, and is now. I think this is already covered in this thread so I won't harp on it.

  • Point 1A: Yeah, but no. Things equally as bad are said frequently across the league without punishment. I genuinely have no idea what member is being talked about in the main post (and I'm not interested in finding out who or why), but regardless I'm inclined to believe that the report was made for reasons other than the nature of the comment. 
  • Point 1B: I'm also disappointed by the lack of transparency. I complained about this recently and I think I communicated part of my point somewhat poorly--that being that I'm not saying we need to know EXACTLY what happened, just that a fair balance should be struck between keeping things private for the sake of professionalism and privacy and being honest and informative for the benefit of the members who are subject to the rules being enforced. This is not the same as the recent punishments for harassment, which it does make sense to keep more private to protect those affected. It's a public comment and a teachable moment. Not only is there precedent for making things like this public--if you'd like to say there isn't, I invite you to explain what isn't OK about this or this or this, or quite frankly any other post in the ban thread. We weren't told "for offensive remarks made under an alternate account in the S80 draft stream, which are in violation of sections 1.3 and 1.5 of the Code of Conduct..."; we were just told that the CoC was violated with zero explanation. And the fact that the post received four positive reactions is similarly not something I understand, because knowing that someone was punished and celebrating it without having any idea why is a bit of a disturbing mindset.

Point 2: More about disturbing mindsets. This makes literally everyone in the league, mods and regular members alike, look bad and has the potential to create a shitstorm.

  • Point 2A: If someone in fact did decide to dig into old draft streams for dirt on somebody...why? Also...that's against the Code of Conduct too! I understand that a motive will not (and should not) be made public, and that even if it supposedly is I'd be skeptical. If, and I am specifying if, this is what happened, I'd invite anyone reading this to consider that making reports specifically intended to punish another member is something that's done out of spite against another member with negative consequences for that member--in other words, a personal attack, which is specifically discussed multiple times in the league's Code of ConductIf this truly is a case of someone trying to dig up dirt on someone else, that someone isn't innocent either.
  • Point 2B: Why have we decided that every single post made by anyone in the past 2-4 years is subject to retroactive review? The replies in this thread bug me a bit, because they seem to imply this. We've got this post, which all but states that posts made after rules were officially drawn up are punishable offenses...
8 hours ago, Josh said:

 

This was like 2 edit:4 months ago according to the report (S80 draft not S79 but regardless...). The CoC came out like 2 years ago, which established the same rules on baiting that we reiterated recently. Long story short, it's a false equivalence to state that you should be suspended for stuff that you did when rules weren't codified vs us needing to remove this tiny TPE ban.

 

Seriously, it's a TPE ban.

 

...as well as that the relative insignificance of this punishment somehow makes it not worth talking about. If someone decided to ban me for a week over this post (I'm not saying anyone will) and just broadly stated that I violated the Code of Conduct (I haven't), that doesn't make it OK because it's only a "tiny TPE ban". That would be an abuse of power as well as a hit to my own reputation with my name being put in the ban thread forever.

 

To respond to the other similar comment:

 

7 hours ago, Beketov said:

I’m not saying there’s a direct line but basically if it was against the rules at the time but squeaked past then it’s less than ideal. If the rules weren’t in place then we aren’t retroactively going back just to punish people for things that weren’t against the rules at the time.

 

Even if we ignore the CoC (which was in place at the time) there’s the old “quit being trolling dicks” rule from like 4 years ago.

 

For the record, I agree that it's "less than ideal" that something got by everyone at the time. But there has to be some sense of reasoning--if someone wants to go through every post made over the last 2 years and demand that everyone who said anything against the Code of Conduct over that time be punished for it, they now have a precedent to do so. Even if someone wanted to dig up a post from 4 years ago and used the rule you mentioned, they now have a precedent to do that. Of course, it would be ridiculous to give someone a punishment today for something they said once in 2017, and I think you can agree with me on that. But where do we draw the line between rational and ridiculous? I think reporting things, or even considering reports on things, from 2 (or 4? whichever it even is, I'm confused) months ago is ridiculous unless said things were legitimately ban-worthy--and this wasn't. Were this said on Discord, the most that would have happened is a tempmute, and I've seen things of equal disgusting-ness just met with a request to shut up. 

 

But yeah, I don't like to think about how we're going to go about things in the future if it's suddenly perfectly acceptable to say "hey, this person made this one comment, months ago, and I think you need to punish him for it". We can talk all we want about how our forum used to be different and how things said after the Code of Conduct was made aren't subject to it--but I'm sure most who have been in the league for the past 2 years, myself included, can think of things they've said in that time that they'd like to have back. I'm not defending the comment, but the response to it is irrational and it embodies some legitimate concerns I have about recent shifts in mod policies.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I understand that we want a "higher standard" of moderation. But a higher standard of moderation does not mean more moderation. It means being consistent, it means being transparent when possible, and it means being respectful and accessible to members of the community. And yes, it does mean catching things when they come up--but what's the point in punishing anyone retroactively, especially when the infraction is pretty minor (no pun intended)?

 

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks this is strange, and I'm glad to know that Hogan can respectfully tell his story without being shut down. And I do seriously appreciate anyone in a position of power with the patience to read through and consider this whole thing. Much love and respect ✌️

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