Grader Appeal Committee/Person

[Phil 5,010]

I don't really see the need for a committee for this. It's the Head Grader's job to be impartial. If he was being biased, there's always the blue team as well.

 

As for the graphic rubric, how is getting a 1/2 or a 2/3 for look any different? 

 

That's what I said!  

 

and

17% of the final grade versus 33% I suppose...

[sterling 1,990]

I'll be judge, jury and executioner

[AIM-11 134]

I've never understood why Grades even exist.  If you do a point task and it's not a blatant attempt to try and 'game the system' then you should receive the full marks as far as I am concerned.  This is a fun league and over the course of three players I've never once attempted a graphic because I know I won't get the full grade.

[Baozi 1,635]

I thought that's what the head grader was for?

[Mr. Grumpy Bear 347]

Yeah and nobody has ever came to me still

[Baozi 1,635]

Yeah and nobody has ever came to me still

Who the hell are you?

[Mr. Grumpy Bear 347]

Head Grader

[Fire Tortorella 2,653]

Yeah and nobody has ever came to me still

 

I mean to be fair you've been HG for like 2 weeks.

[CowboyinAmerica 2,705]

I've never understood why Grades even exist.  If you do a point task and it's not a blatant attempt to try and 'game the system' then you should receive the full marks as far as I am concerned.  This is a fun league and over the course of three players I've never once attempted a graphic because I know I won't get the full grade.

I find this argument much more interesting. I personally like grades because I think part of the appeal of PT leagues over non-PT leagues is the ability to hone a craft (writing, graphics, what have you) in a community of people who are interested doing the same thing and generating more interest by doing so. Grades provide a benchmark for growth to aspire to, in a perfect world. But that's definitely a personal view. Can see the counterargument, been in GM sims that operated that way.

[BOOM 8,401]

The first time I joined the VHL, I saw the GFX PT thread and it's quality(and grade harshness) and pretty much decided "Fuck that" and went back to SSL. I can't remember what my first graphic got but I imagine it would have maxed out at a 4 probably, but that grade plus feedback from the graders and other GFX guys made me determined to improve my stuff and learn techniques and try different stuff creatively. This is just a personal opinion and not worth the 0.77 US cents I'm getting right now, but easy grading simply for the purpose of leveling the playing field helps nobody.

[jack 496]

I don't know what I'd do without grading, the graphics forum isn't as active as it used to be, getting quality cnc is tough.

[DollarAndADream 3,356]

I've only been a media/podcast grader for a week or so but I have over 20 grades already. Maybe 30 I forget. I haven't had a complaint yet but for what it's worth I don't really dock unless it's ridiculous or if it's something that the person has made a mistake about over and over.

 

Like a huge number of grammar mistakes then I'll dock a little bit, but I give chances. I've said more than once in my grades that I'm giving a warning and if it's that bad next time I'll dock it. I haven't had a problem yet.

 

Besides, if the grade isn't full marks then another grader comes in to grade it as well, and it's averaged out. It's not like it's based on one person's grade if it's a harsh grade.

 

All that being said, I wouldn't really mind an Appeal Committee. Doesn't matter to me.

[DollarAndADream 3,356]

I've never understood why Grades even exist.  If you do a point task and it's not a blatant attempt to try and 'game the system' then you should receive the full marks as far as I am concerned.  This is a fun league and over the course of three players I've never once attempted a graphic because I know I won't get the full grade.

Yeah, I used to do sigs for myself on forums all the time. I haven't done them in years though since my old PC went to shit and I lost all my renders, fonts, etc and I know if I try now I'll be very rusty. If I did a graphic now I know for a fact I wouldn't get full marks here.

 

I'm fine with writing anyways, as I've gotten full marks every time except for once by Svoboda. Although the Svoboda grade I didn't agree with, but it averaged out to full marks anyways so I didn't lose anything.

[JardyB10 4,834]

There need not be a committee to appeal grades. If you have an issue with a grade, the process is to appeal to the head grader.

[Caillean 504]

I personally got a 2/6 on my first graphic here. I know for a fact that if it wasn't for the VHL and it's members I wouldn't know the vast majority of what I do right now. I didn't get my first 6 until I was here for a year and I was working on graphics at least one day a week over that time and usually more. I put in hard work learning how to improve to earn my six and right now I feel like you're telling me we should for-go graders and give everyone 6 for their play because they need it to improve and feel that their graphics warrant a 6. I can tell you that I felt many of my graphics warranted a 6 before I ever earned one. I can also tell you that grading here is far softer than it should be, there are a lot of 4's on here getting 5-5.5. One other thing I can tell you is that the people selected to grade graphics here know far more than the vast majority of people making them and never once in this league have I personally heard one complaint on the matter before today. I feel that the grading here is fair. I also feel that we are unbiased and that people need to put in more effort to earn their points. I would be willing to look at moving to a 3 effort, 3 looks system. I would take it to the blue team though if you want auto 6's for people because I'm not down.

See one thing I will say though- this isn't a site where I came to learn how to make great graphics. I came here to "play" sim hockey. I do understand your points, but honestly it's a little ridiculous that grading is so "harsh" when the point of the league isn't to make graphics, it's to boost your player. For example-

I got full marks for that on SHL. I made a very similar sig here this week and got a 5.25 as my first grade, because the text was bad  (which is something I've ALWAYS taken issue with, since text is TOTALLY subjective- if I'm making a sig for me and I like the text I don't understand why I get marked down just because the grader doesn't)and it apparently looked like I just put a render over a background.

Another PT over on SHL that I got full marks for that I KNOW I wouldn't have gotten full marks for here.

What people really need to get here is that we're not here to make graphics. We're here to make our players, graphics are just a stepping stone to that. The fact that some people like spending hours making a sig/graphic should not mean that if everyone doesn't enjoy that that they get docked. I personally spent at least an hour on almost all my sigs, tweaking the things I do to them based on cnc I get from some friends. Media grading is FAR less harsh than graphics grading, because with graphics it always comes down to "do the elite graphic makers feel that this is good by THEIR standards". Graphics grading is too harsh here for what it is (again, a means to an end), and it's a large part of why I've been so inactive around here lately. If it wasn't for the fact that writing tends to take me a lot longer than graphics do, I'd just do that. I enjoy these leagues for the conversation with the members. An hour or two of "work" a week isn't TERRIBLE, and I realize that. That said, I just don't have the desire to put in that kind of work for a sim league. If I was actively constantly say, actually playing my player I wouldn't mind putting in work. But when my grades come down to "do the pros think it's good enough", it compounds the lack of desire I already have to progress in graphics, because it's just something I'm not super interested in learning about. It was, but lack of major improvement in the 6 months I've been here combined with activity dying around here anyway has just made me feel very "meh" about the whole thing. It's part of why the quality of my graphics has gone down lately, I just don't have the desire to put in the effort when the grades come down to opinion. Something I think looks great looks like shit to people who are amazing at graphics, and like Jala said some of the graphics I've seen from these same pros look like absolute crap to me. *shrug*

[Mr. Grumpy Bear 347]

To sum it up you have no desire to put in the effort but you want full marks. Sounds fair. On another note, you say text is subjective. Sure I suppose it is but the fact you just slap it on with no thought to the flow of the graphic, no blending attempted. You got a 5 on your billboard, ok, so did everyone else. Mine took me 10 minutes. If you know how to use photoshop at all that's the effort that went into that pt. you got full marks on your graphics over there? 10/10? Weird, mine that I spent 6 hours making the other day were graded today and I got a 10, a 9 and 2 8's and I'm probably one of the higher rated graphic guys on that site from the work I see there. Comparably, most sigs on this site do earn a 6 and the odd one earns 5. I'm trying really hard here to be nice but this isn't the SHL, we reward effort and I know how much effort goes into making signatures. The people on this site with the best players are those that put in the most effort. You can petition the blue team for automatic 6 for every graphic and media spot but after 41 seasons of it working for everyone here and not hearing a peep about this before today I just don't see change coming. It seems to me that a lot of people have joined this site recently that feel it needs drastic changes but the fact is, the league is the longest running sim league ever for good reason and there already is an SHL, we don't need two of the same. I understand its not for everyone and sometimes the change is too much from what you're used to. I know when I joined SHL I didn't know what was going on. I quit twice because I didn't understand or was able to find all the different places you need to link the imaginary money around, what I could buy. But eventually I stuck it out long enough to enjoy it sometimes. This league is effort based, as in the more effort you put in the more reward you get out. Personally I love the league the way it is. I love that I got 2 when I first did graphics here and I've learned so much from so many helpful people. You feel it's unfair when you get a 5 on here because you put in as much effort as the people here. Well I find it unfair that my stuff over there gets an 8 when yours gets a 10. So I'll leave you with that and walk from this conversation because grading isn't changing on my watch. Blue team maybe though.

[Caillean 504]

To sum it up you have no desire to put in the effort but you want full marks. Sounds fair. On another note, you say text is subjective. Sure I suppose it is but the fact you just slap it on with no thought to the flow of the graphic, no blending attempted. You got a 5 on your billboard, ok, so did everyone else. Mine took me 10 minutes. If you know how to use photoshop at all that's the effort that went into that pt. you got full marks on your graphics over there? 10/10? Weird, mine that I spent 6 hours making the other day were graded today and I got a 10, a 9 and 2 8's and I'm probably one of the higher rated graphic guys on that site from the work I see there. Comparably, most sigs on this site do earn a 6 and the odd one earns 5. I'm trying really hard here to be nice but this isn't the SHL, we reward effort and I know how much effort goes into making signatures. The people on this site with the best players are those that put in the most effort. You can petition the blue team for automatic 6 for every graphic and media spot but after 41 seasons of it working for everyone here and not hearing a peep about this before today I just don't see change coming. It seems to me that a lot of people have joined this site recently that feel it needs drastic changes but the fact is, the league is the longest running sim league ever for good reason and there already is an SHL, we don't need two of the same. I understand its not for everyone and sometimes the change is too much from what you're used to. I know when I joined SHL I didn't know what was going on. I quit twice because I didn't understand or was able to find all the different places you need to link the imaginary money around, what I could buy. But eventually I stuck it out long enough to enjoy it sometimes. This league is effort based, as in the more effort you put in the more reward you get out. Personally I love the league the way it is. I love that I got 2 when I first did graphics here and I've learned so much from so many helpful people. You feel it's unfair when you get a 5 on here because you put in as much effort as the people here. Well I find it unfair that my stuff over there gets an 8 when yours gets a 10. So I'll leave you with that and walk from this conversation because grading isn't changing on my watch. Blue team maybe though.

Again, it's subjective. What looks off from the "flow of the graphic" to you doesn't look that way to me. And it's not that I don't have the desire to put in work. I don't have the desire to put in work that isn't graded objectively. Again, look at medias. The things that get graded are appearance, grammar and staying on topic- that's it. They don't get to give someone a lower grade just because they don't like what they wrote about, which is the equivalent of graphics graders marking down for thinking text doesn't flow well with a graphic, or not liking how a background/render looks together. THAT is my issue with it. I do blend when I think it makes the sig look good, sometimes I also like what it looks like sometimes when a render pops out and it doesn't just look like one layer. I still blend, but not quite as much and obviously not to your elite standards.

I also said that ONE got a 10/10 and because of the subjectivity of grading here, I found it amusing that a sig that looks VERY similar didn't get the same marks here- because different people were grading them. Back when 701 and Schneiderman were grading, it seemed WAY more fair. Several times both of them said to people "Hey I don't personally like it but I can see what you were doing and it doesn't look bad, just isn't my thing." I've never seen any other graders besides them do it. You're also full of it by saying "most earn a 6", because the only reason that's the case is because it's people who are great at graphics. The only time my graphics were getting 6s is when those 2 graders I was mentioning were around.

You don't reward effort, you reward what you see as effort. Because you know what you're doing and can make good graphics, you look at say a sig that I made and go "well I could have done that in 20 minutes so it's not my problem that it takes you an hour to do that, it doesn't count as effort".

If you REALLY think it's just as easy to get a 6 on a graphic as it is on a media spot, you're kidding yourself. The only way anyone ever gets below a 6 is if they've got terrible grammar (and even then I rarely see people get marked down for making a couple grammar mistakes unless it's blatant through the entire post) or didn't include any graphics/formatting.

You haven't heard a peep about this before today? Bullshit. I have PERSONALLY posted about this at least twice in my 6 months as a member.

All your logic would make sense (to me) if this was a GFX creating site. But it's not. It's a sim hockey site. I didn't come here to learn to make graphics, I came here to make a player. So the fact that my graphics are subject to some BS subjective grading by people who are leaps and bounds ahead of me and will basically laugh at anything I can make because they can do what I do in an hour in 30 minutes is just ridiculous to me.

The league may be the longest running, but it's dead as shit right now, and there's a reason for it. The elitist attitude in EVERY facet of the league is ridiculous. I'm putting in effort, or what I see as effort, so don't give me that crap about "we reward effort". Pardon me for not wanting to take 2 fucking hours of my life to make a sig that I'm just gonna get a 5 on anyway because it's not as good as yours or someone else's. It's nice that YOU enjoyed getting a 2 on your first graphic. Other people don't. If I wanted to learn to make graphics as nice as yours, I wouldn't be trying to do it on a sim hockey league.

I don't need to go watch hours of tutorials about writing media spots. But here, I need to do that just to get full marks on graphics. So fuck this, I'm doing medias from now on. At least if I spend an hour and a half writing something, I know it won't get marked down just because the grader doesn't like it or because they didn't feel I put enough effort into it so long as I hit the word count.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Caillean

[Frank 4,758]

Even the best of us started with 5s. The only guys who gets 6s on their sigs are people who were good at gfx before they came to the site. Those who put in the most work and effort get more tpe on their point tasks because this isn't the SHL and you can't just show up. Best members have the best players which is how it should be. 

[Caillean 504]

Even the best of us started with 5s. The only guys who gets 6s on their sigs are people who were good at gfx before they came to the site. Those who put in the most work and effort get more tpe on their point tasks because this isn't the SHL and you can't just show up. Best members have the best players which is how it should be. 

And like I said, this is why it's bullshit. This isn't a site for making graphics, it's a site for making a sim hockey player. It's dumb that my player is subpar because I'm not as good as some people who have years of experience in making graphics. And again, that work and effort is subjective. I've watched tons of youtube videos about making sigs, read those tutorials people have linked me, and none of it seems to be sticking with me. But by the logic i'm seeing here, because I'm not good at graphics it means I'm not putting in effort. There's also the fact that the people making the best sigs are technically putting in the LEAST effort at the moment, since as Bushito said he can bang things out quickly. You yourself told me your sigs take you about 20-30 minutes usually. How you can make cuts in 10 minutes, Mine on the other hand, are always upwards of an hour. Last time I made a cut, it took me almost 2 hours to make sure I didn't fuck it up. So technically, I'm putting in more work than BOTH of you if those times are indeed accurate, but because you guys know what you're doing and yours come out better you consider your effort more important or worthy than mine. If your definition of "best member" is people who can make really good graphics, then I don't even know if I want to remain a part of this league.

Keep telling yourself that it's "just people showing up", it's exactly the elitist attitude I'm referring to around here. Just because some people excel at graphics on a site that really has nothing to do with them other than being the method of gaining experience for your player doesn't mean that people who aren't as good should be getting less. Again, if this was a GFX site I would understand that logic. Not when it's a sim hockey site. Keep going on about how "hard work" should be rewarded but like I said, it's FAR easier to get a 6 on a media spot, because it's completely objective.

[Frank 4,758]

Even the best of us started with 5s. The only guys who gets 6s on their sigs are people who were good at gfx before they came to the site. Those who put in the most work and effort get more tpe on their point tasks because this isn't the SHL and you can't just show up. Best members have the best players which is how it should be. 

[AIM-11 134]

You guys are demonstrating why I've never once attempted a graphic PT. Zero interest in putting in 90 minutes of work (which is how long it would take me since I don't know anything about that stuff), just so my efforts could be torn apart and I get a 4 on the task.

 

I don't come here to join an art class, but to build a player and have fun. So, I do Articles.  In 20 minutes I can slam down an article and 100% of the time I have received a 6/6.  Now, if I knew I would receive a 6 on my graphic then I would totally give it a try and see if I could learn the process, but as it stands right now there is no way I even attempt it.

 

That being said, I'm not asking for a change to happen, but I "personally" never really understood the pressure to be a photoshop expert just to build your hockey player.

 

Allowing for a far bigger range of Point Task ideas would be an interesting way to support the less artsy/writer types, but that's a much bigger discussion.  For people who don't like the way graphics are judged in this league I'd probably just suggest you stick to articles.  The grading on them is incredibly light.

[Kendrick 4,714]

I think the reason why writing seems light or that it isn't graded the same might also be the fact that a large majority of people learn how to read and write in school and when they are younger. Whereas, with graphics you don't learn to use photoshop unless you go get the program or go take a course on it. On the surface it may look like media grading is light, but its just that writing almost comes second nature to some now. Even then though, the response you get from a writing grader will help you if they notice something.

 

I for one would consider myself average at graphics because I'm not familiar with the program as much as others. However the pointers that Frank and Boubabi (as much as I hound him) have given me do help me and I'm able to look at different things. In fact I think it was Boom who gave me tips on text and while back and it assisted me. I don't look at getting a 5 as a shot to my ability, but as a chance to get to a 6 by educating myself through Tuts and PSD's. If losing 1 TPE because I'm trying to progress is a worry, well than maybe I should talk to some guys who get 6's like Jackim and see what they would do. Or better yet share the PSD with them so can give pointers.

 

The league is fun, there is no doubt that's the goal set out. However if things are given away it just becomes a charity case. A 5/6 is a VHL Fan away from saving your week anyways.

[AIM-11 134]

Fair enough.  That's a different approach to the league.  We're all different I guess.  If I could do nothing and receive my 6 points I would.  I'm just here to build a mediocre player and have a good time. 

[Kendrick 4,714]

Fair enough.  That's a different approach to the league.  We're all different I guess.  If I could do nothing and receive my 6 points I would.  I'm just here to build a mediocre player and have a good time. 

Don't get me wrong, improving your player is obviously why we are here. Gaining an advantage through work and overall conclusion of a product though is how you create a tiny difference between players. If in the end two people go head to head and one gets 1 TPE less each week from graphics it won't be a huge difference. That being said I can see maybe a frustration portion of it if full marks aren't given for work you feel you've given 100% in. In the end then you'd eliminate graders completely and thats about 10 jobs out the window if I recall (not sure on that number).