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Claimed: Franchise Cornerstone; S58 Most Valuable Player ? [1/2]


boubabi
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Franchise Cornerstone; Case for S58 Most Valuable Player (to his team)

 

As I’m not in the BoG no more, I get no vote at all for the incoming Award Ballot. However, I can still make this case public as I’ll show my arguments that might not be obvious at first, but has a weight in the argument in my opinion. At first, it’s important to think and consider what is the trophy itself: Most Valuable Player to his team. I think it’s honest to different it with the Most Outstanding Player, which is the reward for the Best Player in the VHL. I think the arguments toward the MVP is more toward his impact on his team and the relation to it. The argument of ‘’what would his team do without him’’ is kind of tricky considering the small VHL roster. Pretty sure you remove anyone over 500 tpe in a team, it makes a considerable difference.

To find a comparison, I’ll compare Franchise Cornerstone S58’s season with his 56’s season, where he got nearly all votes going to him, and see if it’s a comparable production and contribution to his team. Let’s begin.

 

In season 56, Cornerstone ended with 62 goals, 61 assists, 123 points, +71 rating and 11 game winning goals. His 62 goals were league leaders and finished 3rd in the scoring points race between Essian Ravenwing (RIG, 127 pts) and Lukas Muller (QC, 136 pts). If we look to at his goals ratio, finishing with 62, that number represents 29,6 % of all Titans’ goals scored that season. For his pts total (123), it represents 58,8% of all Titans’ goals scored. Yes, that means nearly 60% of the time, Franchise Cornerstone was on the score sheet. His 11 winning goals represents 28% of the GWG for the Titans, who ended that season with 44 wins (39 of them being in regulation or OT) and 91 pts. The stats that also matters is his faceoff %. As a center, physicality isn’t his focus, and it wouldn’t be fair to compare a winger physicality’ with a center. They don’t have the same job/tpe placement. With that in mind, Cornerstone finished 1st in face-off % with 63.65%. Stats like shot blocked, rating and hits taken shouldn’t really be considered in this award (or at all) as they aren’t significative of any the rating, more about a team’s general success.

 

Now, if we take a look at Cornerstone’s S58 season production, we might find comparable stats. He ended the season with 55 goals, 58 assists, 113 points, +52 rating and 13 game winning goals. His 55 goals were good for the 2nd best in the league (behind Locke’s 61 goals) and 3rd in points with 113 (behind John Locke (RIG) 121 and Krigars (RIG) 126). His 13 game winning goals were also 2nd in the league behind John Locke’s 16. Looking at the goal ratio, his 55 goals were 32,3% of every Titans’ goals scored this season. His 113 pts were good for 66,3% of any goals scored by the Titans during that season, who finished with 170 goals scored. The 13 game winning goals were also good for 44,8% of all games winning goals scored by the team (29 win in either regulation or OT). Like the previous comparison, Cornerstone finished 1st in faceoff % with 63,5%.

 

So if we compare the 2 seasons, it would look like this:

S56 : 72 GP, 62 goals (29,6%), 61 assists, 123 pts (58,8%) and 11 GWG (28%)

S58 : 72 GP, 55 goals (32,3%), 58 assists, 113 pts (66,3%) and 13 GWG (44,8%)

 

I think it’s interesting to see what would other players’ contribution to their team to compare the number as well

 

S58 :

Cornerstone: 72 GP, 55 goals (32,3%), 58 assists, 113 pts (66,3%) and 13 GWG (44,8%)

Krigars (RIG) : 72 GP, 50 goals (18,7%), 76 assists, 126 pts (47,1%) and 7 GWG (13,4%)

Locke (RIG) : 72 GP, 61 goals (22,8%), 60 assists, 121 pts (45,3%) and 16 GWG (30,7%)

Boeser (TOR) : 72 GP, 52 goals (21,4%), 57 assists, 109 pts (44,8%) and 11 GWG (22,4%)

Gretzky (SEA) : 72 GP, 49 goals (19,6%), 59 assists, 108 pts (43,3%) and 6 GWG (12,5%)

McAllister (SEA) : 72 GP, 51 goals (20,4%), 56 assists, 108 pts (43,3%) and 11 GWG (22,9%)

 

If we look at the teammates around the players, here’s what the team scoring looks like

 

Seattle :

Shawn Gretzky X                             72           49           59           108

Gabriel McAllister           X                             72           51           56           107

Mattias Forsberg             X                             72           37           60           97

Aleksei Federov                X             72           19           65           84

 

Toronto :

Bo Boeser           X                             72           52           57           109

Lee King Snatch X                             72           47           57           104

Pablo                    X             72           18           74           92

Marc-Alexandre Leblanc              X                             72           44           45           89

 

Riga:

Fredinamijs Krigars         X                             72           50           76           126

John Locke         X                             72           61           60           121

Lukas Muller      X                             72           35           68           103

Rusty Trombone              X                             72           40           39           79

 

Helsinki :

Franchise Cornerstone  X                             72           55           58           113

Rudolph Schmeckeldorf               X                             72           29           58           87

Ay Ay Ron                           X             72           16           58           74

Jack Shephard  X                             72           27           26           53

 

 

The numbers speak for themselves but I shall make a short resume of that. Seattle had a good trio of forwards compiling 312 pts together. Toronto had a good duo up front and a good puck moving D in Pablo. They had a combined 305 pts. Riga were dominant offensively. Their top 3 players had 350 pts. Finally, Helsinki’s top 3 had 274 pts combined.

 

Now, if we take a look inside Helsinki’s team, there might be an internal debate to know which player was most valuable. That’s a tricky question because it’s comparing GK stats with forwards stats. Astrid Moon had a bounce back season. He finished 2nd in save pct with .929 and 5th GAA at 2.28. GAA is tricky considering it’s pretty much a team stat, so I don’t think this needs to have much value in this award (maybe more in the top goaltender award). Moon had 10th shutouts, for the 2nd most in the league (tied with Von Axelberry). I think an interesting stat, and maybe under looked, is the times the goaltender was the 1st star in the game. Cornerstone finished 12 times the 1st star of the game, 10 times the 2nd star and 12 times the 3rd star. Moon was awarded 11times the 1st star, 6 times the 2nd star and 7 times the 3rd star. I think it could reflect their contribution to the game, but it’s up to debate.

 

For me, ballot should look like this.

 

1.Cornerstone

2.Moon

3. Locke.

 

In the end, it’s really about how much a player contributes to his team success and the interpretation of stats. I think it would be interesting to compare past winners to see what kind of numbers we are talking about. Establishing a standard and a method to vote is key to me, the keeps the awards honest and constant through the years. I think what I brought to the table is a good start to that. If Cornerstone received 8 votes out of 9 in S56 for those numbers, this season’s result should be the same if the voting stays consistent.

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3 minutes ago, boubabi said:

He ended with a .933 Sv% and a 2.88 GAA with a team that ended the season 15-46-11

 

Not quite sure how he should be considered over Moon or considered at all for this award 

 

 

Skye: 2887 shots against

Moon: 2109 shots against

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1 minute ago, jRuutu said:

Skye: 2887 shots against

Moon: 2109 shots against

Yes, that is written on the index

Mostly because QC never had the puck and Skye received 40+ shots a game (44,4 to be exact)

not quite sure what you are trying to say

Edited by boubabi
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Just now, boubabi said:

Yes, that is written on the index

Mostly because QC never had the puck and Skye received 40+ shots a game

not quite sure what you are trying to say

Better save percentage than Moon despite having to save over 750 shots more, at least puts Skye into the consideration

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1 minute ago, jRuutu said:

Better save percentage than Moon despite having to save over 750 shots more, at least puts Skye into the consideration

 

Playing in a non-playoff team automatically puts him outside from MVP ballot. No matter how good he was, his team didn't do much. He's more valid for the most outstanding award.

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What's the point of receiving more shots in losing causes ? It has been shown that weak teams receive more shots, and the goaltender (if he's decent enough) will have his save pct sky rock. 

 

It's like considering the shot taken for a forwards, it doesn't make much sense. The GAA and the save pct is already an average. If you consider the number of shots received, it would also be logical to consider the goals scored against skye (192) which is the 2nd league's worst. But again, I don't take that into consideration because we know he was in a team who sucked balls 

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1 minute ago, hedgehog337 said:

 

Playing in a non-playoff team automatically puts him outside from MVP ballot. No matter how good he was, his team didn't do much. He's more valid for the most outstanding award.

and not quite sure a 0.933 goaltender will stand a chance with a 126 and 121 pts player (in Krigars and Locke)

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Just now, hedgehog337 said:

 

Playing in a non-playoff team automatically puts him outside from MVP ballot. No matter how good he was, his team didn't do much. He's more valid for the most outstanding award.

That is fair,  playoffs and performance there is part of the whole thing

 

1 minute ago, boubabi said:

What's the point of receiving more shots in losing causes ? It has been shown that weak teams receive more shots, and the goaltender (if he's decent enough) will have his save pct sky rock. 

 

It's like considering the shot taken for a forwards, it doesn't make much sense. The GAA and the save pct is already an average. If you consider the number of shots received, it would also be logical to consider the goals scored against skye (192) which is the 2nd league's worst. But again, I don't take that into consideration because we know he was in a team who sucked balls 

Played on a team that sucked balls, still had better save percentage than Moon, at least shows he can save the puck?

 

2 minutes ago, boubabi said:

and not quite sure a 0.933 goaltender will stand a chance with a 126 and 121 pts player (in Krigars and Locke)

What is the point on looking at points when half of the teams are bots?

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3 minutes ago, jRuutu said:

Played on a team that sucked balls, still had better save percentage than Moon, at least shows he can save the puck?

Irrelevant argument

 

3 minutes ago, jRuutu said:

What is the point on looking at points when half of the teams are bots?

Also Irrelevant 

 

don't turn this thread into your own vendetta against cpu players and the 2 lines concept

Edited by boubabi
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1 minute ago, jRuutu said:

Played on a team that sucked balls, still had better save percentage than Moon, at least shows he can save the puck?

 

He had 93.1% in a second place team last season. Not a hell of a progress here.

 

5 minutes ago, boubabi said:

and not quite sure a 0.933 goaltender will stand a chance with a 126 and 121 pts player (in Krigars and Locke)

 

He may be on the vote list imo. But Moon should be the first goalie option, yes.

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2 minutes ago, hedgehog337 said:

He may be on the vote list imo. But Moon should be the first goalie option, yes.

I don't see the necessity of talking about  3rd or 4th place candidate when there's only 1 winner. I mean, everyone could be on the ballot, but in the end, there's only a 1st place vote we can give.

Edited by boubabi
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2 minutes ago, boubabi said:

I don't see the necessity of talking about  3rd or 4th place candidate when there's only 1 winner. I mean, everyone could be on the ballot, but in the end, there's only a 1st place vote we can give.

 

Uhmm...split first place option still exists.

Edited by hedgehog337
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3 minutes ago, boubabi said:

Irrelevant argument

 

Also Irrelevant 

 

don't turn this thread into your own vendetta against cpu players and the 2 lines concept

Surely it´s worth taking into consideration? If goalies get their stats analyzed by how their team is doing, should maybe take these 120 point seasons into similar treatment and see what kind of competition they face in the league? Is 120 points in a 50% bot league that much more impressive than 93 save percentage?

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Ye,s because we established that both candidate could deserve the 1st place. However, we don't name a 1st and 2nd place award winners. So why talking about Skye when he isn't superior to Cornerstone/Moon/Locke ?

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7 minutes ago, hedgehog337 said:

 

He had 93.1% in a second place team last season. Not a hell of a progress here.

 

 

He may be on the vote list imo. But Moon should be the first goalie option, yes.

Maybe not, but stood on top of his head while having to face a lot more shots than any other goalie

Edited by jRuutu
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2 minutes ago, boubabi said:

I don't see the necessity of talking about  3rd or 4th place candidate when there's only 1 winner. I mean, everyone could be on the ballot, but in the end, there's only a 1st place vote we can give.

The point of a ballot is to have multiple candidates be discussed. Only one movie wins the Oscar for Best Picture every year but that doesn’t stop them from nominating 9 different movies?

 

I do agree with you that Moon deserves the nomination over Skye (not sure I’d vote for either but still) but the argument of not bringing any more than 2 people into the discussion really would limit the amount of discussion that can be had and the amount of different ways people could potentially vote.

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Just now, Beketov said:

The point of a ballot is to have multiple candidates be discussed. Only one movie wins the Oscar for Best Picture every year but that doesn’t stop them from nominating 9 different movies?

 

I do agree with you that Moon deserves the nomination over Skye (not sure I’d vote for either but still) but the argument of not bringing any more than 2 people into the discussion really would limit the amount of discussion that can be had and the amount of different ways people could potentially vote.

The point is not restricting SKye on the ballot, it's understanding if he has a place. The ballot is there because we think those (3 players) have a chance to win it (1st place). I don't see in what world Skye could win the most valuable player with the current standard established. That'y my point 

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1 minute ago, boubabi said:

Ye,s because we established that both candidate could deserve the 1st place. However, we don't name a 1st and 2nd place award winners. So why talking about Skye when he isn't superior to Cornerstone/Moon/Locke ?

I´d take Skye into my team 10 times out of 10 over those 3 if we look this season and the performances each player put up.

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1 minute ago, jRuutu said:

Surely it´s worth taking into consideration? If goalies get their stats analyzed by how their team is doing, should maybe take these 120 point seasons into similar treatment and see what kind of competition they face in the league? Is 120 points in a 50% bot league that much more impressive than 93 save percentage?

 

The argument really comes down to the wins more than anything though. If Sky had single handedly brought them into the playoffs then yeah, he deserves to be on the ballot as he was vital to his team’s success. However that .930 S% didn’t help his team win; they still vastly lost the majority of their games. Sure he was Quebec’s most valuable player but does that make him more valuable than someone like Moon who won games for his team? Not really.

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Just now, jRuutu said:

I´d take Skye into my team 10 times out of 10 over those 3 if we look this season and the performances each player put up.

again, irrelevant to the argument. Awards are decided with arguments and numbers. I would take Auston Matthews in my team before Blake Wheeler, it doesn't mean Auston Matthews should win the hart over Wheelers

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  • DollarAndADream changed the title to Claimed: Franchise Cornerstone; S58 Most Valuable Player ? [1/2]

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