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S67 VHL Award Show Discussion Thread


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2 hours ago, Enorama said:

So what's the big controversy this year? Because I would love to defend any votes of mine.

 

Shane Mars over Jet Jaguar for ROTY.

 

Here is what you can defend your vote against.

Edited by gorlab
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17 minutes ago, gorlab said:

 

Shane Mars over Jet Jaguar for ROTY.

 

Here is what you can defend your vote against.

Agreed. I've been trying to push a bit for Jaguar in chat for the back third of the season, especially with regard to minutes comparison.

Mars has 94 points in 2,006 minutes, while Jet Jaguar has his 90 in <1,500 minutes. That's a huge difference and frankly, Mars doesn't hold a candle to Jaguar because of it. I would hope that efficiency, especially something this drastic in players with similar volume statistics, would be a consideration for ALL committee members.

 

This kind of selection is problematic for the future in the league, especially for rookies since we're going to be seeing much deeper teams. I'm not even entirely sure we can make a "first line vs. second line" argument, since nearly half of Mars's ice time was as a third liner.

Edited by Renomitsu
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1 hour ago, gorlab said:

 

Shane Mars over Jet Jaguar for ROTY.

 

Here is what you can defend your vote against.

 

Mars finished 3rd in goals ahead of stars like Louth, Preencarnacion, and Arroyo. Jaguar was 11th. The rest of their stats were similar enough that that (relatively) massive disparity in goals made a difference to me. Points/60 has never been a good sell to me because the best players are going to get exponentially more minutes, but not usually exponentially more points. For example, Jorgon Weyed had higher Points/60 than Peace, Dragomir, Dahlberg, etc. but is anyone really going to make the argument that he's the better player?

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9 minutes ago, Enorama said:

 

Mars finished 3rd in goals ahead of stars like Louth, Preencarnacion, and Arroyo. Jaguar was 11th. The rest of their stats were similar enough that that (relatively) massive disparity in goals made a difference to me. Points/60 has never been a good sell to me because the best players are going to get exponentially more minutes, but not usually exponentially more points. For example, Jorgon Weyed had higher Points/60 than Peace, Dragomir, Dahlberg, etc. but is anyone really going to make the argument that he's the better player?

 

You're a moron.

 

A 'relative massive disparity in goals' makes a difference to you, yet you disregard a massive disparity in minutes played in the same breath?

 

 

 

How did you feel about the guy going inactive and abandoning the team he GM'd and then getting replaced as a GM?

 

Oh wait, you probably don't weigh that into consideration when voting for "player awards" right? Why not? Don't answer, because the answer is you're a moron.

Edited by gorlab
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7 minutes ago, gorlab said:

 

You're a moron.

 

A 'relative massive disparity in goals' makes a difference to you, yet you disregard a massive disparity in minutes played in the same breath?

 

 

 

How did you feel about the guy going inactive and abandoning the team he GM'd and then getting replaced as a GM?

 

Oh wait, you probably don't weigh that into consideration when voting for "player awards" right? Why not? Don't answer, because the answer is you're a moron.

 

It's a subjective award, I can weigh the criteria how I please. And yeah, members don't come into consideration for me whatsoever for any of these awards. Would you rather I just voted on which member I liked most each time?

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9 minutes ago, Enorama said:

 

It's a subjective award, I can weigh the criteria how I please. And yeah, members don't come into consideration for me whatsoever for any of these awards. Would you rather I just voted on which member I liked most each time?

 

Seems like that's probably what you did, tbh.

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10 minutes ago, Enorama said:

 

It's a subjective award, I can weigh the criteria how I please. And yeah, members don't come into consideration for me whatsoever for any of these awards. Would you rather I just voted on which member I liked most each time?

 

Make yourself useful and let me know who the other 7 members of the Awards committee are though.

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2 hours ago, Enorama said:

 

Mars finished 3rd in goals ahead of stars like Louth, Preencarnacion, and Arroyo. Jaguar was 11th. The rest of their stats were similar enough that that (relatively) massive disparity in goals made a difference to me. Points/60 has never been a good sell to me because the best players are going to get exponentially more minutes, but not usually exponentially more points. For example, Jorgon Weyed had higher Points/60 than Peace, Dragomir, Dahlberg, etc. but is anyone really going to make the argument that he's the better player?

I'm not sure this is a fair argument, and it's also not the one @gorlab or myself is trying to make.

 

The argument is, among players with SIMILAR volume stats, there should be an additional consideration for efficiency. Jet Jaguar had 6 fewer goals than Shane Mars - a comparison of 40 to 46 for the season - and I'm not saying 6 goals is a terribly small amount. Their points were different by a total of 4 (90 vs. 94), which is very much into the grey area as far as whether efficiency is to blame here. For gorlab and myself, we're past the grey area - a 4-point difference (or 6 goal difference, take your pick) with a 500+ minute playing difference is too much to justify giving Mars the RotY.

 

To make the argument that comparing Jorgon Weyed to Peace/Dragomir/Dahlberg is even remotely the same type of comparison we're making, and it's dismissive of the point either of us were trying to make. Weyed has 58 points. Peace, Dragomir, and Dahlberg had 85, 72, and 70 - so the smallest of the differences you can make in terms of points for these players is a +/- 12 difference, while the largest is 27 (which is a ridiculously large difference). Obviously we understand efficiency stats are not the only number we take into consideration and you're correct - nobody would argue these three all-stars are similar to Jorgon Weyed, and we did not try to make that argument.

 

This type of singular-number argument/comparison is precisely what we are arguing against. We are using efficiency AND volume in parallel to suggest Jaguar had a better season than Mars.

Edited by Renomitsu
I'm just reining in my verbiage.
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9 minutes ago, Renomitsu said:

I'm not sure this is a fair argument, and it's also not the one @gorlab or myself is trying to make.

 

The argument is, among players with SIMILAR volume stats, there should be an additional consideration for efficiency. Jet Jaguar had 6 fewer goals than Shane Mars - a comparison of 40 to 46 for the season - and I'm not saying 6 goals is a terribly small amount. Their points were different by a total of 4 (90 vs. 94), which is very much into the grey area as far as whether efficiency is to blame here. For gorlab and myself, we're past the grey area - a 4-point difference (or 6 goal difference, take your pick) with a 500+ minute playing difference is too much to justify giving Mars the RotY.

 

To make the argument that comparing Jorgon Weyed to Peace/Dragomir/Dahlberg is even remotely the same type of comparison we're making, and it's dismissive of the point either of us were trying to make. Weyed has 58 points. Peace, Dragomir, and Dahlberg had 85, 72, and 70 - so the smallest of the differences you can make in terms of points for these players is a +/- 12 difference, while the largest is 27 (which is a ridiculously large difference). Obviously we understand efficiency stats are not the only number we take into consideration and you're correct - nobody would argue these three all-stars are similar to Jorgon Weyed, and we did NOT try to make that argument. Please do not suggest we were doing so.

 

This type of singular-number argument/comparison is precisely what we are arguing against. We are using efficiency AND volume in parallel to suggest Jaguar had a better season than Mars.

 

I appreciate you fam, but it really isn't worth it at this point. 

 

All 8 of these idiots voted for Mars, which tells me none of them care or even took a minute to look into anything but goals/assists/points. 

 

They aren't going to reverse shit, they aren't going to apologise. I just want to know who these 8 people are so I can go out of my way to not fuck with them, or fuck them over by any means I can, to satisfy my pettiness. 

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14 minutes ago, gorlab said:

 

I appreciate you fam, but it really isn't worth it at this point. 

 

All 8 of these idiots voted for Mars, which tells me none of them care or even took a minute to look into anything but goals/assists/points. 

 

They aren't going to reverse shit, they aren't going to apologise. I just want to know who these 8 people are so I can go out of my way to not fuck with them, or fuck them over by any means I can, to satisfy my pettiness. 

I get your frustration. I really do, and that's why I'm trying to argue on your side. I thought Jet Jaguar was the right choice, but we have to respect the opinions of the committee.

 

The important part we have to do now is at least get the committee thinking about these things now and see if they are willing to consider some of our points for future seasons. They voted by their criteria this time around, and I do not want them to reverse their choices.

 

And it's tempting to voice our frustrations in various ways, but the way we go about it can hurt or help our case. I just ask that you continue to feel strongly about it and fight for how you think this process should be changed in the future.

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18 minutes ago, gorlab said:

 

I appreciate you fam, but it really isn't worth it at this point. 

 

All 8 of these idiots voted for Mars, which tells me none of them care or even took a minute to look into anything but goals/assists/points. 

 

They aren't going to reverse shit, they aren't going to apologise. I just want to know who these 8 people are so I can go out of my way to not fuck with them, or fuck them over by any means I can, to satisfy my pettiness. 

 

To be fair, I did read your article and even actually linked it within the discussion thread. The votes were done blindly, so nobody knew what anyone else had voted when they voted. We all came to the conclusion of Mars individually.

 

@Renomitsu I appreciate what you're saying and I didn't mean to say that efficiency should either be the only thing considered or thrown out entirely, merely that I ranked it very low on my personal set of criteria. A big reason for this is that having someone taking on a bigger role and therefore more minutes is actually a big bonus in my mind, even if they didn't take on the linearly related amount of points.

 

For instance, take the NHL Calder race this year into consideration. Pettersson won, as he should have, but Andreas Johnsson actually finished 2nd place in points/60 among rookies, while being relatively close to people like Tkachuk, Dahlin, Heiskanen, etc in scoring, he finished something like 7th in voting for the Calder, in large part due to his reduced role on the team. Tkachuk and Dahlin received extra votes because of the amplified roles that they played on their team, resulting in lower efficiency but higher minutes played. Jaguar was very tight to Mars for me in my decision making, but in the end, I didn't think that the difference in minutes was enough to overturn the difference in goals for me, and the minutes played was actually a benefit to Mars' candidacy in my mind, because he obviously was required to take on a more important role on his team.

 

Please remember, the grand majority of these awards are subjective, so while you may disagree upon the criteria that someone used to evaluate other players, but it doesn't make them idiotic just because they don't think the same way you do.

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2 hours ago, gorlab said:

 

Seems like that's probably what you did, tbh.

 

I can't say I've ever talked to Spade tbh, he's never been my GM nor have we ever played together.

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  • Commissioner

@gorlab you know exactly who you sound like right now and I’m going to tell you the same things I told him:

 

1. Demanding names so you can shout at them isn’t really proper. Though in this case it’s a member group, it’s not entirely difficult to figure out who’s in it. Still though.

 

2. I get that you’re upset but there’s proper ways to voice that and then there’s calling people retarded. Let’s try to keep on the first option shall we?

 

Frankly I am surprised that one was an 8-0 and I think things were closer than the vote implies they were. You’re acting as if there’s no possible way anyone could have unbiasedly voted for Mars though which doesn’t make sense. We both know that you both had great seasons but ultimately it’s a subjective award and there’s a lot to consider. Cherry picking only the stats that work in your favour and pointing at them saying “look how dumb you were” doesn’t help your case any. Yes, your Points/60 was higher. However his overall points were higher, goals tend to rate higher than assists and he beat you there, had fewer PIM’s, more blocked shots, and more GWG. It’s easy to say “they just looked at x stats” but ultimately the ones they looked at are kinda major numbers.

 

Like I said, I expected a closer vote given the number so but let’s not pretend this should have been some kind of runaway for you either.

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Nobody on this committee even considered that the guy was so inactive he got force removed as a GM? This is reward worthy to VHL senior site members?

 

Miss me with the whole "real life stuff happens" and "oh these are just IN-SIM awards" garbage arguments, which even then I'd say a vast majority of VHLers, not on this awards committee, are going to give their vote to Jaguar based on the "in-sim" result. Mars was overplayed on a garbage underachieving team. The fact Moscow had a more successful season than Seattle alone is strength enough.

 

I'm done arguing about this, because obviously nothing is going to be done, or changed about this.  Still waiting on the 8 members of this committee, though. The fact nobody's willing to post it is comedy in and of itself.

 

 

 @Beketov free boubabi 

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