HOT TAKE: Secondary Simmers

[Motzaburger 1,590]

8 hours ago, Snussu said:

Okay so

@Dil @Beaviss @Devise @Beketov @Motzaburger @Josh @Quik

 

So. After reading with rest of page 2 and all of page 3 i propose this. 

 

We get 2 OFFICIAL Backup simmer who get paid 1 TPE per sims they do.

 

We make a sim schedule. If there isent a sim at 9pm Eastern Standard Time backup can swoop in and sim it. Regardless if the real simmer has said amything or not. This eliminates the "sudden life changes" and simmers don't have to stress about simming.

 

We also start streaming the sims. Weather its everyone or just backups I dont care.

 

Now. Before you say "this happens once or twice" yes. It does. With this we dont have to have it happen ever. And having the two OFFICIAL backup simmer dont have to work if Devise and Beke can do their job at 9pm EST or earlier. And they dont get paid.

 

Problem solved. Any other questions?

Easy solution. Fix the problem. 

 

And Bek and whoever else, yes it is an "inconsistent" pattern when it keeps happening and the revolving door of new members in the VHLM KEEP ASKING EACH SEASON. The pattern is each season. 

 

It is a problem whether you like it or not. And who cares if sims used to be weekly. New times. New technology. More people willing to help and want jobs. Licenses are cheap. Streaming is easy. Giving out 1 capped TPE twice per season isn't ruining TPE.

 

And Quik the issues you raise simply can be addressed when hiring official secondary simmers. Make sure they will have the access when they need to be used 'twice per season'. And worst case scenario, both official secondary simmers not there? Well then we will fall back the admins that know how to sim. 

 

Once again, not a the biggest issues, but not an issue that should be ignored. There are legitimate solutions being offered here that will relieve the simmers and take the stress off of them when they have real life comings and goings. Everyone is quick to say no, but at the end of the day, this is not going to fix itself if we ignore it and don't address it properly. 

 

Next time a sim is missed I'm sure one of Quik or Josh will be fast to do them because of this thread but beyond that, as we forget about this discussion, I'm sure the same problem will continue. So why not just fix it now? Why not consider the additional things too (i.e,. streaming sims, schedule/deadlines, making it an official position)?

[BigTittySmitty 172]

1 hour ago, Quik said:

As has been stated already, we do have backup simmers, and the issue on something like this is more of a communication issue than a having backup simmers. If we get a heads up that sims might be missed, Josh is usually available to cover, as am I. But without it, that means we could be caught in a situation where it's not feasible to cover.

 

My issue with having a deadline for sims and having the backup simmers take over is that it also means that those simmers need to check on the site at that time every day, or else it nullifies the strategy - something I don't feel is fair to tell people they need to be on at a certain time as a "just in case". Especially given the time for a deadline would likely be 9PM ET or later, that's a time where most here are likely going to be spending time with family, significant others, and/or out of the house in general. Not really a time where we can be dictating that people are not only checking the site, but also have their computer and internet access readily available.

 

For example, I got a ping yesterday asking if I could cover the sims, but did not see it until the early morning, at which point the games had already been simmed. It's not often that I don't check in on the boards/discord for extended periods, but it happens from time to time, as I do need to take keep my house in order, as does everyone else here. And even when I do, more often than not I'm not using the laptop that I use to sim.

 

For the most part, Josh and I are available when given a heads up, but if it's something we're not expecting, and this would be the same for any other member that would be named backup simmer, it's hard to implement a schedule for when you have to log in - it has always been, and will always be, the case that real life comes first. As a league, we do our best to accommodate everybody, and sim consistency is better now than it ever has been. I know it's not the answer everyone wants, but it is possible that there will be times when we go a day without sims.

 

The answer might fall right there, in that if there does go a full calendar day without sims, and there has been none by the time the backup logs on the following day, that we pickup from there - but even then, that requires not only knowing that a sim has been missed, but even something as minor as having the laptop/PC readily available to cover if it's not the access point you use for day to day VHLing.

 

Then make that part of the job requirement of backup simmer is at the time of expected sim to log in and check. As well, have deadline of hours before the expected sim time for current simmer to report to team to ask for relief. This way if league makes it 9pm expected sim time. By noon that day the primary will have to report they may need a backup and for everyone to keep their eyes open for that. 

[Beketov 8,642]

1. I’m not streaming my sims for the same reason I have mentioned countless times before. I sim from Work on my lunch break. It’s a pain in the ass enough to teamviewer into my sim computer to do it without also needing to set up and control a stream. I’ll do it in the playoffs when it’s more important but not on a daily basis. I don’t see how that is here or there to this conversation though.

 

2. No one is shutting it down. All we’re saying is that you are making it out to be an end of the world style situation when we’re perfectly consistent 97% of the time. That number by the way I’m not pulling out of my ass, that’s assuming 4 missed sims (so two per league per season which almost never happens) out of 84 (42 days for an average season, 2 leagues). We aren’t machines. 97% consistency is pretty damn good and far and away not a bloody pattern.

 

3. My issue from the get go in here hasn’t been the suggestion or the discussion it’s been the attitude you’re showcasing. Cool that and the discussion is going to go much better for you to be honest. I’m trying to be civil here but you’re basically coming in and saying we’re single handedly ruining retention by not being sim bots. Not originally but that’s what it’s starting to run into. People can disagree with you without it needing to get nasty.

 

4. We’ve already explained that it is an official position in that Quik and Josh already do it. I’m not seeing how we need more than that. Perhaps some more official structure but I don’t think brushing off Quik’s concerns, which are valid, does much to the discussion of that structure. I don’t see us needing more simmers, that’s just likely something gets stomped on that shouldn’t. Better communication maybe, I dare say probably, but not more simmers.

 

5. As I’ve already stated many times even before this thread but also a few times in here, we aren’t scheduling sims. This is a hobby for everyone, not a job. We try to be as consistent as we can do you guys can notify people if they ask but it’s not reasonable to say that anyone, be that main simmer, backup simmer, or whatever you want to call it should have to be on daily at a set time, 7 days a week, without fail. It is a hobby, not a job. There’s no reason we should treat it as a job. I get wanting more consistency but we’re people too and I want you to understand that.

[Quik 4,113]

1 minute ago, BigTittySmitty said:

 

Then make that part of the job requirement of backup simmer is at the time of expected sim to log in and check. As well, have deadline of hours before the expected sim time for current simmer to report to team to ask for relief. This way if league makes it 9pm expected sim time. By noon that day the primary will have to report they may need a backup and for everyone to keep their eyes open for that. 

 

23 minutes ago, Motzaburger said:

And Quik the issues you raise simply can be addressed when hiring official secondary simmers. Make sure they will have the access when they need to be used 'twice per season'. And worst case scenario, both official secondary simmers not there? Well then we will fall back the admins that know how to sim. 

 

Again, you are basically asking that official secondary simmers (which Josh and I both are) need to log on at a specified time AND have access to their simming computer - basically implying that every evening be dedicated to the VHL on the extremely off-chance that a sim is missed.

 

At the end of the day, we ALL do this for enjoyment, not a single one of us is making an income off of this league. We dedicate our free time for the enjoyment of others. Every single person here has responsibilities outside of the league that are a first-priority, and we will never fault anyone for that. If it was actually a consistent issue, where there were mulitple instances of 2+ days without sims in a season, then I would agree there is a problem. But when it happens maybe once or twice per season, adding such rigid rules is a great way to drive down member enjoyment and increase turnover in key positions in the league.

[BigTittySmitty 172]

1 minute ago, Quik said:

 

 

Again, you are basically asking that official secondary simmers (which Josh and I both are) need to log on at a specified time AND have access to their simming computer - basically implying that every evening be dedicated to the VHL on the extremely off-chance that a sim is missed.

 

At the end of the day, we ALL do this for enjoyment, not a single one of us is making an income off of this league. We dedicate our free time for the enjoyment of others. Every single person here has responsibilities outside of the league that are a first-priority, and we will never fault anyone for that. If it was actually a consistent issue, where there were mulitple instances of 2+ days without sims in a season, then I would agree there is a problem. But when it happens maybe once or twice per season, adding such rigid rules is a great way to drive down member enjoyment and increase turnover in key positions in the league.

 

So far it's already happened a bunch of times in the minors this season... hence the comments on it now. We've had it TWICE IN 10 DAYS and a few more times as well. This commentary about requesting to change is about the minors sims but we cannot make suggestion to fix one without including the others as sadly people would then think it would be pick on Devise central. With it becoming a growing issue now. We have a multiple running jokes about when sims are and if there will be sims in our own LR. That's a growing problem.  

The best way I can explain this is so far it's consistently... inconsistent. It's almost worth making a betting discord bot to see if and when sim will occur if this keeps up. What we are doing using the appropriate thread is trying to make things consistent. Deadlines are important so using my example of a noon or 4pm deadline for primary simmer to determine and report they cannot sim. Then the secondaries will see that and can do their thing with plenty of time to determine between said secondary. The force 9pm deadline to check in would be the in the ultimate in case shit happened scenario where they primary fell off the face of the earth and we cannot contact them.

[Motzaburger 1,590]

2 minutes ago, Quik said:

But when it happens maybe once or twice per season, adding such rigid rules is a great way to drive down member enjoyment and increase turnover in key positions in the league.

That's the opposite of what is happening. Missing sims is driving down member enjoyment, engagement, and retention - this coming from VHLM GMs and VHLM players.

 

What't the point of having the positions if we aren't following rigid rules? I have to follow the rules within my position. VHL GMs must follow the rules within their positions. There are rule books. So we can follow the rigid rules. If the back up simmers aren't able to follow the rigid rules then I'm sure there is other people in this community who can and are willing to do this around their real life.

 

And it is a consistent issues, season to season, and lately once every week for the past three weeks. It's not a non-issue by any means. 

 

We have offered very simple solutions that have arisen in this thread and it's not much to ask for when multiple members are raising concerns regarding engagement & enjoyment at the level if the most important league in this site. The M is where new members come in and see how this site works. One sim missed, one bad experience, that's it. They are done. We ask them to commit weekly and join the league and be a part of this community. The least we can do is try our best to make things run smoothly each day so they can see their player's progress and give them something to look forward to!

[Beketov 8,642]

3 minutes ago, Motzaburger said:

We have offered very simple solutions that have arisen in this thread and it's not much to ask for when multiple members are raising concerns regarding engagement & enjoyment at the level if the most important league in this site. The M is where new members come in and see how this site works. One sim missed, one bad experience, that's it. They are done. We ask them to commit weekly and join the league and be a part of this community. The least we can do is try our best to make things run smoothly each day so they can see their player's progress and give them something to look forward to!

You are exaggerating. To make your point for sure but still. If I’m not mistaken didn’t you join when Higgins was still simming the M and we’d get 3-4 days missed at a time? Yet you’re still here. I’m not saying it’s perfect but I think it’s a bit extreme to say if a single day is missed all retention efforts disappear. It’s just not a good faith kinda debate tactic since it basically comes off as you saying if simmers aren’t machines everyone leaves.

 

Personally I think there’s a compromise to be had here and it mostly starts with @Devise and I. Specifically that if a sim is going to be likely missed we simply ask someone else to cover it within a reasonable timeframe. I’m not saying a strict deadline or that backups must be ready every single night at 9PM sharp or what not just a simple request. “Hey, it’s a busy day. Could someone cover for me”. Worst case we find the time we didn’t think we’d have and we get it done anyway and no one needs to step in. 
 

This would be combined with 2 systems to make it easier. First, that lines get sent in a better manner. We’ve been working on this for a bit but there must be some way to make it work. Part of the issue of multiple email addresses is not knowing what’s been done and what hasn’t so lines and stuff can get missed; which we’ll also be given shit for but I digress. If we had a button to download any lines since the last sim we wouldn’t have the question. Second would be a more conscience effort to do things at the same time. We already try to be consistent and I will always argue against a set schedule but IN GENERAL if you guys would be able to say “sims are usually around 6 EST” (for example) then it would at least make you all look better. If we can’t get a sim done at our usual time at least what we can try to do is get on and post why. This would also be, worst case, when we ask for help.

[BigTittySmitty 172]

9 minutes ago, Beketov said:

This would be combined with 2 systems to make it easier. First, that lines get sent in a better manner. We’ve been working on this for a bit but there must be some way to make it work. Part of the issue of multiple email addresses is not knowing what’s been done and what hasn’t so lines and stuff can get missed; which we’ll also be given shit for but I digress. If we had a button to download any lines since the last sim we wouldn’t have the question. Second would be a more conscience effort to do things at the same time.

 

Not sure how it's done but could a simmer's google drive work where GMs upload lines to the google drive instead of emailing them in. So the changes to file name should update with appropriate date/time when re-uploaded? Then sim team can just download those from the google drive? I know in GOMHL we used to manually update players into a google sheet drive for statistics and the simmer put those in there. Could something like this work for lines?

 

9 minutes ago, Beketov said:

Second would be a more conscience effort to do things at the same time. We already try to be consistent and I will always argue against a set schedule but IN GENERAL if you guys would be able to say “sims are usually around 6 EST” (for example) then it would at least make you all look better. If we can’t get a sim done at our usual time at least what we can try to do is get on and post why. This would also be, worst case, when we ask for help.

 

Thank you  This is what we have been wanting and begging for.  That's why I used the word deadline as with any task we would have expectations of when something should be done by. We understand shit happens and people have lives. We just want the ability to say around "x to y" time and now.. 24 hours +/- from the last sim time. That doesn't make the league look good.

[Motzaburger 1,590]

7 minutes ago, Beketov said:

You are exaggerating. To make your point for sure but still. If I’m not mistaken didn’t you join when Higgins was still simming the M and we’d get 3-4 days missed at a time? Yet you’re still here. I’m not saying it’s perfect but I think it’s a bit extreme to say if a single day is missed all retention efforts disappear. It’s just not a good faith kinda debate tactic since it basically comes off as you saying if simmers aren’t machines everyone leaves.

 

Personally I think there’s a compromise to be had here and it mostly starts with @Devise and I. Specifically that if a sim is going to be likely missed we simply ask someone else to cover it within a reasonable timeframe. I’m not saying a strict deadline or that backups must be ready every single night at 9PM sharp or what not just a simple request. “Hey, it’s a busy day. Could someone cover for me”. Worst case we find the time we didn’t think we’d have and we get it done anyway and no one needs to step in. 
 

This would be combined with 2 systems to make it easier. First, that lines get sent in a better manner. We’ve been working on this for a bit but there must be some way to make it work. Part of the issue of multiple email addresses is not knowing what’s been done and what hasn’t so lines and stuff can get missed; which we’ll also be given shit for but I digress. If we had a button to download any lines since the last sim we wouldn’t have the question. Second would be a more conscience effort to do things at the same time. We already try to be consistent and I will always argue against a set schedule but IN GENERAL if you guys would be able to say “sims are usually around 6 EST” (for example) then it would at least make you all look better. If we can’t get a sim done at our usual time at least what we can try to do is get on and post why. This would also be, worst case, when we ask for help.

I'm not sure I am exaggerating because the simplest thing can make someone leave. For example, new member finds out it's not an NHL20 league, but we convince them to stay anyways. We tell them games are every 24 hours or so, they come back next day, no sims, and that's that. I don't think this is a reach or an exaggeration at all honestly. We already have a ton of users that join and peace out right away. Let's not make another reason for that. 

 

I think that is a good compromise. The deadline thing I am iffy with. I think regardless if we make the position official or not we need to see very good communication to make sure we get those sims out for people and give them something to come back for. Being able to tell them a time or a general window would be amazing on top of that. I personally still think we need to go with a stance of official back up simmers as well. 

 

As for lines, the early chat in this thread with Dil was actually productive in the sense we could have a hub for the league files (for the simmers) and a place where we can upload lines instead of emailing. For example, have a discord channel for VHL/M lines, not for chatting, just upload the lines file when you want your lines done. At every sim, the chat gets wiped so the simmer doesn't grab old lines - this way if a GM needs changes done and needs to upload twice for some reason, they can delete their OG upload for that sim. Also, the simmers could have their own private channel with the league files, etc. Would this be a practical solution?

[Josh 1,597]

1 minute ago, Motzaburger said:

1) in the sense we could have a hub for the league files (for the simmers)

2) and a place where we can upload lines instead of emailing.

 

1) Exists already

2) Working on it

[frescoelmo 1,218]

Thanks to everyone for expressing their concerns and opinions on the subject at hand.

 

Responsible parties will continue to review and, if necessary, will let the league know if/when any changes will be made.

 

At this point I think this topic has been exhausted and it is time to close the suggestion/complaint.