Breaking the 4th Wall: Season 97, VSN and Malmo, Trade Critiques, and Lovstrom for MVP

[sadie 1,045]

lovstrom was absolutely the best player in the league and that was reflected in the slobo vote; mvp does not always go to best player

 

why is this a lovstrom pity party? i think everyone is adequately appreciating his season

[LucyXpher 1,983]

  On 3/11/2025 at 3:26 AM, sadie said:

lovstrom was absolutely the best player in the league and that was reflected in the slobo vote; mvp does not always go to best player

 

why is this a lovstrom pity party? i think everyone is adequately appreciating his season

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Strange how the best player in the league isn't the most valuable to their team...

Maybe MVP shouldn't hold so much weight if the best player in the league can't win it and it's circumstantial around being on a mid team that needs to be carried.

[Pifferfish 777]

  On 3/11/2025 at 3:26 AM, sadie said:

Why is this a lovstrom pity party? i think everyone is adequately appreciating his season

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 I think when people down play his contributions to the 2nd best defensive season by a team EVER by saying shit like.. oh but their offense was pretty good, that's inadequate personally. All I ask, if for one person to give me a legitimate reason, ONE, and I won't care so much. But I've heard no such explanation other than "he contributed more to them making the playoffs" based on what? Explain this to me. And "Malmo's offense" which is magically not a consideration for Toronto when their Defense was more impactful than their offense to winning. 

[Spartan 4,727]

  On 3/11/2025 at 3:43 AM, LucyXpher said:

Strange how the best player in the league isn't the most valuable to their team...

Maybe MVP shouldn't hold so much weight if the best player in the league can't win it and it's circumstantial around being on a mid team that needs to be carried.

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Literally none of the recent MVPs in the last like 8 seasons (lazy to look through further) have been Slobo winners. If we wanted to combine the two, why have two awards? There's different criteria, that's why there's different winners and different rationale behind it.

[Pifferfish 777]

  On 3/11/2025 at 3:48 AM, Spartan said:

Literally none of the recent MVPs in the last like 8 seasons (lazy to look through further) have been Slobo winners. If we wanted to combine the two, why have two awards? There's different criteria, that's why there's different winners and different rationale behind it.

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Precedent: every Slobo winner who garnered over half the Slobo votes has won both awards, except 2 times. S58 and S78? (Could have the seasons wrong) but in 1 of those examples the Slobo was won by a player on the worst team in the league, and the other only 14 total votes for the Slobo we're cast, winner got 9 total votes.

 

And so we are denying even the possibility that the two should go to the same player? Can I choose to recuse myself from the Slobo voting in the future then?

[Pifferfish 777]

Also, that's a sample size of like 18 Slobo winners meeting that criteria, so it does happen, often.

[Spartan 4,727]

  On 3/11/2025 at 3:50 AM, Pifferfish said:

Precedent: every Slobo winner who garnered over half the Slobo votes has won both awards, except 2 times. S58 and S78? (Could have the seasons wrong) but in 1 of those examples the Slobo was won by a player on the worst team in the league, and the other only 14 total votes for the Slobo we're cast, winner got 9 total votes.

 

And so we are denying even the possibility that the two should go to the same player? Can I choose to recuse myself from the Slobo voting in the future then?

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You can't say precedent and then list situations where it doesn't fit lmao. Dude. You won individual awards. You didn't get MVP. Seems like you've asked a lot of people and gotten explanations that you just don't like. It's not new to us, someone complains every season about not winning. I've given you my personal thoughts, whether you care for it or not is up to you. I don't have anything new to provide to you though, so just gonna leave my contributions here. Cheers man, hope you have more success with your player.

[LucyXpher 1,983]

  On 3/11/2025 at 3:48 AM, Spartan said:

Literally none of the recent MVPs in the last like 8 seasons (lazy to look through further) have been Slobo winners. If we wanted to combine the two, why have two awards? There's different criteria, that's why there's different winners and different rationale behind it.

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So since he won the Slobo he therefore can't win the Campbell? 

He also received the most votes for the Slobo than any player since S81.
Daniel Janser in S86 was the last player to win both, and actually tied with a goalie for the Campbell.
I'm not saying every Slobo and Campbell winner should be the same player, not by any means, but I guess what I'm hearing is the Campbell winner can't be on a true top team since they're essentially expendable if there are other good players.  It kinda diminishes the meaning of MVP for me if that's the criteria...

[Spartan 4,727]

  On 3/11/2025 at 4:01 AM, LucyXpher said:

So since he won the Slobo he therefore can't win the Campbell? 

He also received the most votes for the Slobo than any player since S81.
Daniel Janser in S86 was the last player to win both, and actually tied with a goalie for the Campbell.
I'm not saying every Slobo and Campbell winner should be the same player, not by any means, but I guess what I'm hearing is the Campbell winner can't be on a true top team since they're essentially expendable if there are other good players.  It kinda diminishes the meaning of MVP for me if that's the criteria...

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I was just replying to your comment about best player in the league not being the MVP. I pointed out that Slobo =/= Campbell, that's all.

[Pifferfish 777]

  On 3/11/2025 at 3:57 AM, Spartan said:

You can't say precedent and then list situations where it doesn't fit lmao. Dude. You won individual awards. You didn't get MVP. Seems like you've asked a lot of people and gotten explanations that you just don't like. It's not new to us, someone complains every season about not winning. I've given you my personal thoughts, whether you care for it or not is up to you. I don't have anything new to provide to you though, so just gonna leave my contributions here. Cheers man, hope you have more success with your player.

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No I've received 1 explanation multiple times that is just some standard applied to me and my player but not to the other player voted against me. That's all.

[sadie 1,045]

 

  On 3/11/2025 at 3:43 AM, LucyXpher said:

Strange how the best player in the league isn't the most valuable to their team...

Maybe MVP shouldn't hold so much weight if the best player in the league can't win it and it's circumstantial around being on a mid team that needs to be carried.

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Having other amazing players on your team UNEQUIVOCALLY DIMINISHES EACH ONE'S VALUE TO THEIR TEAM (granted, by variable amounts). That's indisputable.

 

MVP doesn't hold much weight at all to me compared to the Slobo for that reason, but then again I have no idea how impactful each are on HOF chances because I've never been good enough to pay attention to HOF stuff Other than that idk why MVP would be better than MOP.

 

  On 3/10/2025 at 11:35 PM, LucyXpher said:

I think one of my main points of disagreement is that one of the most prestigious awards in the league is restricted to players who aren't on a top team.  Like okay, without Lovstrom does Malmo still make the playoffs?  Sure, but I doubt we win the Victory Cup by 9 points and have the lowest GA in the league, not to mention 3 separate winning streaks over 12 games.  Some of the most valuable players are on the top teams, why should star players on mid teams be prioritized for the award?  That's the logic that got Taylor Hall the Hart Trophy and it's kinda goofy.  It just becomes an award for the best player on a mid team then. 

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Yeah I truly believe the MVP is an award for players on mid teams and I think that's ok. It's in the fundamental nature of MVP awards for me and I don't think it should carry anywhere near the prestige of an MOP.

 

  On 3/11/2025 at 3:47 AM, Pifferfish said:

 I think when people down play his contributions to the 2nd best defensive season by a team EVER by saying shit like.. oh but their offense was pretty good, that's inadequate personally. All I ask, if for one person to give me a legitimate reason, ONE, and I won't care so much. But I've heard no such explanation other than "he contributed more to them making the playoffs" based on what? Explain this to me. And "Malmo's offense" which is magically not a consideration for Toronto when their Defense was more impactful than their offense to winning. 

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Listen I really don't wanna downplay Lovstrom's contributions he was so so so good. I'm not saying I think Callahan did contribute to his team making the playoffs whereas Lovstrom didn't have to. Toronto slipping down 13 points is a hell of a lot more likely than *checks notes*  the 68 points Malmo would have needed to drop. I think it's genuinely just unfortunate for you because of flaws inherent in the nature of the award, I don't think it's a knock on you. I just really do think losing Callahan would have had more consequences for Toronto than losing you would have had for Malmo
 

  On 3/11/2025 at 3:48 AM, Spartan said:

There's different criteria, that's why there's different winners and different rationale behind it.

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we're never gonna have harmony and sing kumbaya together when it comes to it either.

[LucyXpher 1,983]

  On 3/11/2025 at 4:08 AM, sadie said:

Listen I really don't wanna downplay Lovstrom's contributions he was so so so good. I'm not saying I think Callahan did contribute to his team making the playoffs whereas Lovstrom didn't have to. Toronto slipping down 13 points is a hell of a lot more likely than *checks notes*  the 68 points Malmo would have needed to drop.

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Making the playoffs > winning Victory Cup?  I'm being somewhat facetious, but it seems we award more value to a player for helping their team be less mid than we give to a player for helping their team be more elite.  Not having Lovstrom probably means no Victory Cup for Malmo.

I suppose we could put it in money terms lol.  Lovstrom as the most outstanding player in the league is worth $5 and Callahan is worth $4. Because Malmo as a team has $50 and Toronto has $38, losing Lovstrom hurts Malmo less than Toronto losing Callahan.  (Money values are totally arbitrary to make a point)

The issue seems to be deciding where the value is.  Do we take the player at face value ($5 vs $4) or on percentage value relative to overall team value (Lovstrom 10% or Callahan 10.5%).

 

I'd rather have the $5 than the $4, though it would seem the MVP award is more interested in the percentage value.  $5 is still $5 tho...

[Pifferfish 777]

  On 3/11/2025 at 4:29 AM, LucyXpher said:

$5 is still $5 tho...

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Screenshot out of context

[sadie 1,045]

  On 3/11/2025 at 4:29 AM, LucyXpher said:

I suppose we could put it in money terms lol.  Lovstrom as the most outstanding player in the league is worth $5 and Callahan is worth $4. Because Malmo as a team has $50 and Toronto has $38, losing Lovstrom hurts Malmo less than Toronto losing Callahan.  (Money values are totally arbitrary to make a point)

The issue seems to be deciding where the value is.  Do we take the player at face value ($5 vs $4) or on percentage value relative to overall team value (Lovstrom 10% or Callahan 10.5%).

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I mean it's exactly this right? Losing Lovstrom hurts Malmo less than losing Callahan. People see the Campbell as going to the person most valuable to their team's success. I totally think it's a flawed award but I think that presuming that the Campbell would ever be an award for 'face value' when that's what the Slobo is, is silly. Again there literally isn't more that Lovstrom could have realistically done, but that's just how the award goes for me.

[Pifferfish 777]

  On 3/11/2025 at 4:36 AM, sadie said:

I mean it's exactly this right? Losing Lovstrom hurts Malmo less than losing Callahan. People see the Campbell as going to the person most valuable to their team's success. I totally think it's a flawed award but I think that presuming that the Campbell would ever be an award for 'face value' when that's what the Slobo is, is silly. Again there literally isn't more that Lovstrom could have realistically done, but that's just how the award goes for me.

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My larger overall contention is less Callahan vs Løvstrøm and more so the fact that Callahan vs Vidarsson is a debate, one that personally, based on the numbers I think is actually lean Vidarsson.

[LucyXpher 1,983]

  On 3/11/2025 at 4:36 AM, sadie said:

I mean it's exactly this right? Losing Lovstrom hurts Malmo less than losing Callahan. People see the Campbell as going to the person most valuable to their team's success. I totally think it's a flawed award but I think that presuming that the Campbell would ever be an award for 'face value' when that's what the Slobo is, is silly. Again there literally isn't more that Lovstrom could have realistically done, but that's just how the award goes for me.

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Right, except trying to argue that $4 is more valuable than $5 is also silly 

That's kinda my point. 

The award description doesn't say "most valuable to their team", it just says "most valuable in the regular season", whatever that means... (but that could be getting overly semantic)

Edited Tuesday at 04:41 AM by LucyXpher

[Pifferfish 777]

  On 3/11/2025 at 4:36 AM, sadie said:

I mean it's exactly this right? Losing Lovstrom hurts Malmo less than losing Callahan. People see the Campbell as going to the person most valuable to their team's success. I totally think it's a flawed award but I think that presuming that the Campbell would ever be an award for 'face value' when that's what the Slobo is, is silly. Again there literally isn't more that Lovstrom could have realistically done, but that's just how the award goes for me.

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Like if Toronto has a Harold Benson instead of Vidarsson, they probably miss the playoffs too, so how do we say Callahan is definitively more valuable than him, hell, if they lose Machado for like Bret Weier, they still probably miss the playoffs. Skilton for Joseph Dubois, and they miss the playoffs.

[sadie 1,045]

  On 3/11/2025 at 4:39 AM, LucyXpher said:

Right, except trying to argue that $4 is more valuable than $5 is also silly 

That's kinda my point. 

The award description doesn't say "most valuable to their team", it just says "most valuable in the regular season", whatever that means... (but that could be getting overly semantic)

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40 dollars to a poor man is more valuable than 50 to a rich man... there's many ways to look at valuable.

 

Regarding description, I think there was plenty of that back-and-forth around the VHLM awards regarding wording as well and I do agree it's objectively unclear, but I 100% interpret it as most valuable to the team and I think it's a fundamental understanding around MVP awards in the world at large. I'd imagine the BOG saw it the same way.
 

  On 3/11/2025 at 4:40 AM, Pifferfish said:

Like if Toronto has a Harold Benson instead of Vidarsson, they probably miss the playoffs too, so how do we say Callahan is definitively more valuable than him, hell, if they lose Machado for like Bret Weier, they still probably miss the playoffs. Skilton for Joseph Dubois, and they miss the playoffs.

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This is a very good point to bring up, and I don't think anyone can definitively say anything about it. I assume the whole being the league's points leader thing is what made him stick out to them when deciding. I still feel like Callahan beats out the other nominees for it but it's interesting to ponder. I'm also not gonna claim to be incredibly knowledgeable compared to y'all about this lmao and I will honestly say I don't know how to quantify that situation.

[Daniel Janser 2,301]

  On 3/11/2025 at 4:01 AM, LucyXpher said:

I'm not saying every Slobo and Campbell winner should be the same player

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Yeah you kind of did when you said 'Strange how the best player in the league isn't the most valuable to their team...'

 

I really have no horse in this race at all, I just wonder why people can get so upset about something that should be fun. And is not that Piffer got completely shunned and was not considered (or has won) any trophy at all. 

 

I think under the circumstances, Malmo would have made the playoffs and maybe even won the VC with a bot in the net. And I am not shitting on Lovstrom's performance (which was amazing) it has more to do with the fact, that half of Europe struggled to field a full line let alone two.

 

I doubt that Toronto would have made the playoffs with a bot playing in Callahan's stead.

 

Does anyone here remember Bernie Nicholls? Dude scored 150 points in the 1988/89 season, which would have been good enough to win the scoring race in most seasons. But because Mario Lemieux, Wayne Gretzky and Steve Yzerman played as well, he became fourth... he has a reason to be livid. His seventy goals were not good enough to win the Rocket Richard, because Super Mario decided to have a career year. He never won any trophy at all.

 

 

[Pifferfish 777]

  On 3/11/2025 at 8:47 AM, Daniel Janser said:

Yeah you kind of did when you said 'Strange how the best player in the league isn't the most valuable to their team...'

 

I really have no horse in this race at all, I just wonder why people can get so upset about something that should be fun. And is not that Piffer got completely shunned and was not considered (or has won) any trophy at all. 

 

I think under the circumstances, Malmo would have made the playoffs and maybe even won the VC with a bot in the net. And I am not shitting on Lovstrom's performance (which was amazing) it has more to do with the fact, that half of Europe struggled to field a full line let alone two.

 

I doubt that Toronto would have made the playoffs with a bot playing in Callahan's stead.

 

Does anyone here remember Bernie Nicholls? Dude scored 150 points in the 1988/89 season, which would have been good enough to win the scoring race in most seasons. But because Mario Lemieux, Wayne Gretzky and Steve Yzerman played as well, he became fourth... he has a reason to be livid. His seventy goals were not good enough to win the Rocket Richard, because Super Mario decided to have a career year. He never won any trophy at all.

 

 

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The case of Bernie would be an even comparison from where we sit had he won the Rocket and Points race but lost the MVP.

 

And once again, I think it is an inherent issue that playing in the EU becomes of factor in how "value" is determined. 

 

And people are focused on how close Toronto was to missing the playoffs, but my argument is that probably 4 players on their team could be replaced by a 500 TPE bum and I think that creates a big enough void to miss the playoffs. 

Edited Tuesday at 11:21 AM by Pifferfish

[LucyXpher 1,983]

  On 3/11/2025 at 8:47 AM, Daniel Janser said:

Yeah you kind of did when you said 'Strange how the best player in the league isn't the most valuable to their team...'

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I most definitely did not say the Slobo and Campbell should be the same player.  Notice how the highlighted section is merely an observation, not a claim.  
 

That being said, something does seem off about the evaluation of this awards when the “Most Outstanding Player” has only won the “Most Valuable Player” award once since S85– interestingly it was your player.  
 

Conversely, the real awards that the Campbell and Slobodzian are based on (the Hart and Lindsay) have had the same winner in all but two seasons  since 2012– Taylor Hall MVP being one.  Those awards also share the same criteria as our version of them so it’s a little odd to me how our voters end up with such drastically different results.  
 

Not every Slobo winner needs to win the Campbell,  but there should be more crossover than once every 11 seasons.

[Daniel Janser 2,301]

I mean how come Wayne Gretzky has won 9 Harts but only 5 Pearson/Lindsay? Both are even for the MVP and not like in the VHL one for the most outstanding and one for the MVP. By your logic he should have as many Pearson as Harts. 

 

It was a close vote, and people disclosed why they voted the way they did. Unless you can show a rule what needs to be considered in an MVP vote, their criteria are as valid as yours. It is a matter of preference/perspective. 

 

FWIW to me 'most valuable' means the player with the most influence on their team's success. And in a sim league this is imo difficult to assess, especially for goalies. 

 

[Daniel Janser 2,301]

  On 3/11/2025 at 1:00 PM, LucyXpher said:

I most definitely did not say the Slobo and Campbell should be the same player.  Notice how the highlighted section is merely an observation, not a claim.  
 

That being said, something does seem off about the evaluation of this awards when the “Most Outstanding Player” has only won the “Most Valuable Player” award once since S85– interestingly it was your player.  
 

Conversely, the real awards that the Campbell and Slobodzian are based on (the Hart and Lindsay) have had the same winner in all but two seasons  since 2012– Taylor Hall MVP being one.  Those awards also share the same criteria as our version of them so it’s a little odd to me how our voters end up with such drastically different results.  
 

Not every Slobo winner needs to win the Campbell,  but there should be more crossover than once every 11 seasons.

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Well Lindsay/Pearson and Hart are both labeled MVP, one is voted for by journalists and the other by the NHLPA. They do not have Most outstanding player, so being different awards (yet admittedly somehow related) and being voted for by different bodies (one is a popular vote, the other by the BOG), one would expect that there are less overlaps than in the NHL.

 

Edit: BTW DJ also won the Slobo in S85 as well, but the Campbell went to a skater with 99 points. I do not think you will see any post of mine campaigning that it was an unfair ballot and how the most outstanding player does not get the MVP as well. I think it is easier to compare skaters with each other than skaters vs netminder...

Edited Tuesday at 01:36 PM by Daniel Janser

[LucyXpher 1,983]

  On 3/11/2025 at 1:08 PM, Daniel Janser said:

Well Lindsay/Pearson and Hart are both labeled MVP, one is voted for by journalists and the other by the NHLPA. They do not have Most outstanding player, so being different awards (yet admittedly somehow related) and being voted for by different bodies (one is a popular vote, the other by the BOG), one would expect that there are less overlaps than in the NHL.

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“The Ted Lindsay Award is presented annually to the “Most Outstanding Player” in the NHL as voted by fellow members of the NHLPA.” - from the NHL website. 
 

The award definition is quite literally the same as ours. I just think our voters seem to determine “value” differently than NHL Hart voters.  I think our Slobo votes usually work themselves out since it’s pretty simple criteria and there are usually many voters.  The MVP I think is where BoG gets hung up and perhaps overthinks the criteria at times.  
 

Im not a big fan of the idea that MVP “value” should be a percentage value of a player relative to their team.  I wrote about this in another comment.  It can very easily over inflate a player’s perceived value based on the fact that the roster is flawed.  Winning an award based on your team’s deficiency is a little silly.  Also notice a strong correlation between Hart, Lindsay, and Art Ross Trophy winners.  Not always the same— less so with the Art Ross— but I don’t think we should be afraid of the idea that the most outstanding player, or highest producer could also be the most valuable to their team.  
 

Again, the fact that there has only been one Slobo and Campbell crossover winner since S85 is a little odd.

[Daniel Janser 2,301]

  On 3/11/2025 at 1:59 PM, LucyXpher said:

“The Ted Lindsay Award is presented annually to the “Most Outstanding Player” in the NHL as voted by fellow members of the NHLPA.” - from the NHL website. 

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huh, I was mislead by the German Wikipedia page where both were listed as 'wertvollster' which literally translates into 'Most valuable', mea culpa

 

 

  On 3/11/2025 at 1:59 PM, LucyXpher said:

 I think our Slobo votes usually work themselves out since it’s pretty simple criteria and there are usually many voters.  The MVP I think is where BoG gets hung up and perhaps overthinks the criteria at times.  

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As mentioned before, where are these in-stone-set criteria that apparently VHL members get 'right' and the BOG gets 'wrong'? 

Edited Tuesday at 02:12 PM by Daniel Janser