Breaking the 4th Wall: Season 97, VSN and Malmo, Trade Critiques, and Lovstrom for MVP

[LucyXpher 1,991]

42 minutes ago, Daniel Janser said:

As mentioned before, where are these in-stone-set criteria that apparently VHL members get 'right' and the BOG gets 'wrong'?

I don’t think they always get it wrong, not at all.  The criteria is also technically different for Slobo and Campbell.  I think “most outstanding” is an easier thing to determine than “most valuable”, which is why I said the player voted Slobo tends to get it right imo.  Literally just vote honestly for the player who performed the best and was most outstanding.  
 

As mentioned above, “most valuable” seems a little ambiguous.  Most valuable in the league?  Most valuable to team? Total value contributed? Value relative to teammates? Value relative to similar players?  I’m not saying the BoG gets it wrong, but their criteria seems quite different from the NHL’s Hart criteria, even though the trophy is described the same way— for the most valuable player.  I suspect this discrepancy is why people take issue with the choices at times.  
 

There are many ways to determine value and which particular version of value should be used is not clear in the award description, which is why my version might not agree with BoGs choice, and likely why the vote was close since 6 voters agreed Lovstrom was MVP. 
 

I think better defined criteria provided by the league for these awards would likely help avoid these disagreements in the future and people feeling robbed.  Nobody ever complains about the player who scores the most goals because the criteria is obvious and objective.  But ask someone to tell you what value means for MVP and you’ll get ten different answers.

[Spartan 4,730]

12 minutes ago, LucyXpher said:

As mentioned above, “most valuable” seems a little ambiguous.  Most valuable in the league?  Most valuable to team? Total value contributed? Value relative to teammates? Value relative to similar players?  I’m not saying the BoG gets it wrong, but their criteria seems quite different from the NHL’s Hart criteria

 

But ask someone to tell you what value means for MVP and you’ll get ten different answers.

Personally think that's fine, we don't replicate the NHL in every aspect and having different perspectives makes for better award discussion. And farming forum content it appears.

[Pifferfish 781]

3 hours ago, Daniel Janser said:

Well Lindsay/Pearson and Hart are both labeled MVP, one is voted for by journalists and the other by the NHLPA. They do not have Most outstanding player, so being different awards (yet admittedly somehow related) and being voted for by different bodies (one is a popular vote, the other by the BOG), one would expect that there are less overlaps than in the NHL.

 

Edit: BTW DJ also won the Slobo in S85 as well, but the Campbell went to a skater with 99 points. I do not think you will see any post of mine campaigning that it was an unfair ballot and how the most outstanding player does not get the MVP as well. I think it is easier to compare skaters with each other than skaters vs netminder...

As I've stated, my concern is the criteria of value and how I think it's perceived that Callahan played for a team devoid of talent other than him, but Jørgen played with an absolutely loaded team. When simply that is not the case. I've never said they should automatically go to the same player. I'm saying that its concerning how to me when voters arbitrarily have a set of personal criteria that they apply case by case to fit a narrative over using criteria to come to a conclusion. 

[LucyXpher 1,991]

1 hour ago, Spartan said:

Personally think that's fine, we don't replicate the NHL in every aspect and having different perspectives makes for better award discussion. And farming forum content it appears.

It’s been a long offseason lol

[Pifferfish 781]

4 minutes ago, LucyXpher said:

It’s been a long offseason lol

Im just trying to get this thread to 100 replies for the memes now.

[tcookie 995]

5 hours ago, LucyXpher said:

I’m not saying the BoG gets it wrong, but their criteria seems quite different from the NHL’s Hart criteria, even though the trophy is described the same way— for the most valuable player.  I suspect this discrepancy is why people take issue with the choices at times.  

 

I don't think this is just a VHL BoG thing; I feel like in every sim league I've ever been in there is a tendency to really heavily emphasize the "to their team" part of MVP awards. Usually to the point where it becomes "best player on a mid team" instead of "most valuable player" because tons of value gets ascribed to being the reason a team made the playoffs.

 

I think it's weird that you wouldn't ascribe similar, or more, value to being the reason a team was the best team in the league. But everyone gets to decide what value means to them, and that's part of what makes voting on an award like MVP - and discussing the results - interesting. And often controversial. Lovstrom had a season you could argue was the best goaltending season in 10+ seasons (Summers certainly has some that are right up there). Callahan's season was average-ish for a forward that led the league... and 54% of the voters went that way because of the calibre of their respective teams. I don't think that's precedent-breaking, I think that fits very well with the established precedent - that being on an elite team very nearly implicitly disqualifies you from MVP. I don't think it's intentional, nor the precedent that is trying to be set, but I think it has happened anyway.

 

There are 3 or 4 of the MVP award results from the list you shared that I'd probably switch the recipient of if it were strictly up to me, but it is what it is! And it's good discussion and forum content lol

Edited March 11 by tcookie

[DarkSpyro 999]

Welcome to the robbed club brother @Pifferfish  there are no perks, but there are a lot of us  

[DarkSpyro 999]

Getting back to the article as a whole, it was another great read @LucyXpher! You do multiple thankless jobs which is never easy.. I can definitely see the amount of work you tirelessly put into the community and into all of your content. You’re already a legend this community is blessed to have you here

[Pifferfish 781]

8 hours ago, tcookie said:

 

I don't think this is just a VHL BoG thing; I feel like in every sim league I've ever been in there is a tendency to really heavily emphasize the "to their team" part of MVP awards. Usually to the point where it becomes "best player on a mid team" instead of "most valuable player" because tons of value gets ascribed to being the reason a team made the playoffs.

 

I think it's weird that you wouldn't ascribe similar, or more, value to being the reason a team was the best team in the league. But everyone gets to decide what value means to them, and that's part of what makes voting on an award like MVP - and discussing the results - interesting. And often controversial. Lovstrom had a season you could argue was the best goaltending season in 10+ seasons (Summers certainly has some that are right up there). Callahan's season was average-ish for a forward that led the league... and 54% of the voters went that way because of the calibre of their respective teams. I don't think that's precedent-breaking, I think that fits very well with the established precedent - that being on an elite team very nearly implicitly disqualifies you from MVP. I don't think it's intentional, nor the precedent that is trying to be set, but I think it has happened anyway.

 

There are 3 or 4 of the MVP award results from the list you shared that I'd probably switch the recipient of if it were strictly up to me, but it is what it is! And it's good discussion and forum content lol

I think that's the part I find so odd, in the NBA SGA for example is being touted as the MVP BECAUSE his team is the best, over his actual performance. Obviously this is not the NBA but it highlights in part what the general real life sports community means by MVP. And like people continue to be like "they wouldn't make the playoffs without this player" when that's true of like 4 players or more on the roster, but all 4 of them aren't MVPs, that's true of every middle of the pack team. It's kind of odd.