VHL attributes leading to direct stats

[Prof. Zach Enron 85]

is there any chance we can get a comprehensive guide onto what each attribute/tpe spent will equal too in statistical output. 

For a long time many of us have been confused as to what exactly each TPE number increment is statistically. I'm getting tired of seeing these very high TPE shooters not score goals, it makes me wonder if by putting my TPE into wrist shot and lets say I only put 80 in it will mean I am capped out at 20 goals for example. Another example, my leadership - is that what GM's look at or coaches I guess when they're making a captain? I don't want to discount myself through stupid attribute application if my goal is to be a leader

[Gustav 6,468]

2 minutes ago, dart said:

is there any chance we can get a comprehensive guide onto what each attribute/tpe spent will equal too in statistical output. 

For a long time many of us have been confused as to what exactly each TPE number increment is statistically. I'm getting tired of seeing these very high TPE shooters not score goals, it makes me wonder if by putting my TPE into wrist shot and lets say I only put 80 in it will mean I am capped out at 20 goals for example. Another example, my leadership - is that what GM's look at or coaches I guess when they're making a captain? I don't want to discount myself through stupid attribute application if my goal is to be a leader

 

 

There's a chart in there that was part of the initial hybrid attribute announcement...along with some sample builds showing you what can get you where in terms of the real STHS attributes.

[Prof. Zach Enron 85]

5 minutes ago, Gustav said:

 

 

There's a chart in there that was part of the initial hybrid attribute announcement...along with some sample builds showing you what can get you where in terms of the real STHS attributes.

Yeah I guess I'm looking for more raw data than anything, like is there a correlation between all the top scorers having max shooting or not. Like is it possible for me to still score 50 even though I have bad shooting or is it capped which stops me. Like does the system hold me down, or is it me holding me down?

[Gustav 6,468]

8 minutes ago, dart said:

Yeah I guess I'm looking for more raw data than anything, like is there a correlation between all the top scorers having max shooting or not. Like is it possible for me to still score 50 even though I have bad shooting or is it capped which stops me. Like does the system hold me down, or is it me holding me down?

 

I feel like the jury is still out on that one because we've only seen a handful of seasons, but I'm also pretty sure the best scorers all...have good scoring (which makes sense at least).

 

It is important to note that a playmaking build is more TPE-efficient (the same amount of investment will get you more improvement in your attributes overall), but if you look at the sample builds I have in my guide you'll find that it isn't wildly different between the two and that would lead me to believe that a scoring build is still the better option. Overall, though, I'd love to see more people exploring what they can do with the hybrid attributes instead of trying to find a new meta within them.

[Spartan 4,530]

8 minutes ago, dart said:

is it me holding me down?

I mean if you have 60 SC and others in the league have 90, obviously it's not the system holding you down. Most 800-900+ TPA players who are goal-oriented will have SC between 85-90, so I suppose that's a target to aim at. You can also use the "toggle STHS ratios" button on your update page to see the specific ratios for what hybrid attributes upgrade from an STHS attribute perspective.

[Prof. Zach Enron 85]

2 minutes ago, Spartan said:

I mean if you have 60 SC and others in the league have 90, obviously it's not the system holding you down. Most 800-900+ TPA players who are goal-oriented will have SC between 85-90, so I suppose that's a target to aim at. You can also use the "toggle STHS ratios" button on your update page to see the specific ratios for what hybrid attributes upgrade from an STHS attribute perspective.

I mean but we still do see these guys make the NHL and score 30 goals and if they were in the VHL they'd be mid ranged TPE guys, like Brandon Pirri or Sprong - hell even like Hoffman. I guess I understand I should aim for high stats generally but I was hoping maybe give the right coaching circumstances i could over preform but I guess it's a mix between the system and me. But really with the whole tpe gain process I cant see it being anoyne else but the system

[Spartan 4,530]

3 minutes ago, dart said:

I mean but we still do see these guys make the NHL and score 30 goals and if they were in the VHL they'd be mid ranged TPE guys, like Brandon Pirri or Sprong - hell even like Hoffman. I guess I understand I should aim for high stats generally but I was hoping maybe give the right coaching circumstances i could over preform but I guess it's a mix between the system and me. But really with the whole tpe gain process I cant see it being anoyne else but the system

I wouldn't say 30 goals is mid-range in the NHL, but for your own example, I had 30 goals and 59 points as a rookie. So it's not unattainable if you earn well.

[Pifferfish 593]

4 minutes ago, dart said:

I mean but we still do see these guys make the NHL and score 30 goals and if they were in the VHL they'd be mid ranged TPE guys, like Brandon Pirri or Sprong - hell even like Hoffman. I guess I understand I should aim for high stats generally but I was hoping maybe give the right coaching circumstances i could over preform but I guess it's a mix between the system and me. But really with the whole tpe gain process I cant see it being anoyne else but the system

IMO coaching matters... lines matter... opposing lines also matter. something else to keep in mind is like. a guy with 90 PA / 90 SC / 90 PH will likely score less than a guy with 60 PA / 80 SC / 70 PH as an example. The ratio between these ratings to my understanding determine your tendencies in the sim. When you player ouches the puck he will do something. If he shoots it every time, you'll probably score a lot more than a guy just taking less shots. Even if that guy has a better SC score than you. Hope this explanation helps a bit... and anyone more experienced than myself please feel free to dispute this information if i am incorrect. 

[jacobcarson877 2,559]

Yeah there's no real function where x attribute gives you y result. By my own personal and very not intense research MOST 30 goal players in the VHL have 86+ scoring, and their scoring stat 15+ higher than their passing stat. 83 scoring seems to be what I see as a baseline for 20 goals?

The most important thing to realize is that stats aren't necessarily indicative of talent. STHS does have semi-locked in values of goals it expects to hand out, so if you play a ton of time on a terrible team, you may score stats at a rate higher than one would expect, but that is purely circumstantial.

Obviously higher stats, particularly DF, SC, SK and PH get you a higher chance of meeting your potential.

So yes you can absolutely overperform, but usually due to the fact that your team sucks and "someone has to score right?"

[Arce 755]

https://vhlportal.com/tools/tpa-tppl
 

The TPA Tool on the portal is also very handy. Search your player and play around with the attributes so you can see where you want everything by a certain TPA point. You can also toggle with each attribute to see how much it’ll take to raise the STHS attributes.

[Nykonax 1,566]

1 hour ago, dart said:

is there any chance we can get a comprehensive guide onto what each attribute/tpe spent will equal too in statistical output. 

 

37 minutes ago, jacobcarson877 said:

Yeah there's no real function where x attribute gives you y result. By my own personal and very not intense research MOST 30 goal players in the VHL have 86+ scoring, and their scoring stat 15+ higher than their passing stat. 83 scoring seems to be what I see as a baseline for 20 goals?

there is actually *kinda* is!

 

@Squidwarddid a regression analysis like a few years ago.

 

unfortunately a lot of the images have been lost to time I guess, maybe if he's alive he can give more insight. But you can read his conclusions and somewhat get an idea. I find it really interesting that it showed passing was negatively correlated with goals/assists/points before we even knew about meta. also shows that skating isn't really important which was found to be true in SHL for STHS 1.5, but I assume it's somewhat similar for us too. Also note that when he says 1 TPE increase I think that means 1 increase in an STHS attribute. Eagle's sample is really small though just one season, but down the line I want to redo this with more data.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Nykonax

[jacobcarson877 2,559]

3 minutes ago, Nykonax said:

Eagle's sample is really small though just one season, but down the line I want to redo this with more data.

Awesome read! Very curious how this holds up now with hybrid making it so everyone essentially has to take on passing.

[Triller 1,684]

When I joined the site I was happy to see a guide but was also a bit disappointed.  Seemed to indicate to me that variety in builds would be minimal and that small differences wouldn't make an impact on the sim.  I think a lot of younger users also prioritize scoring.  Most would rather score a goal than stop a goal cause it may look better on a score sheet.  Applying any defensive attributes would take away from the chance to put up more goals.  We can all easily compare where the top goal scorers put their points and copy it but, why?  Seems like a boring way to go.

 

I say guides need to be ignored and if my player or yours becomes a stat dump, it just builds the realism of the league.  4th liners are important to a well rounded team and if that is where my player ends up, I hope he is the best 4th liner there is.  Bottom of the best is only slightly better than the best of the worst.  Put your stats wherever you want and see what happens!

[Prof. Zach Enron 85]

1 hour ago, Triller said:

When I joined the site I was happy to see a guide but was also a bit disappointed.  Seemed to indicate to me that variety in builds would be minimal and that small differences wouldn't make an impact on the sim.  I think a lot of younger users also prioritize scoring.  Most would rather score a goal than stop a goal cause it may look better on a score sheet.  Applying any defensive attributes would take away from the chance to put up more goals.  We can all easily compare where the top goal scorers put their points and copy it but, why?  Seems like a boring way to go.

 

I say guides need to be ignored and if my player or yours becomes a stat dump, it just builds the realism of the league.  4th liners are important to a well rounded team and if that is where my player ends up, I hope he is the best 4th liner there is.  Bottom of the best is only slightly better than the best of the worst.  Put your stats wherever you want and see what happens!

I agree, I think it becomes a real issue for the lower TPE players. I think there's alot of stuff that outweighs other attributes early which does make sense - like people aim for the baselevel shot etc early because late game is about smoothing out all those small things like defensive stuff. Low TPE guys just won't really see the benefits of TPE application to some of the smaller cooler stuff and that also ties into what you were saying about goals points etc being the main thing that shows on the score sheets so I guess it's a balance forsure. 

[Prof. Zach Enron 85]

4 hours ago, jacobcarson877 said:

Yeah there's no real function where x attribute gives you y result. By my own personal and very not intense research MOST 30 goal players in the VHL have 86+ scoring, and their scoring stat 15+ higher than their passing stat. 83 scoring seems to be what I see as a baseline for 20 goals?

The most important thing to realize is that stats aren't necessarily indicative of talent. STHS does have semi-locked in values of goals it expects to hand out, so if you play a ton of time on a terrible team, you may score stats at a rate higher than one would expect, but that is purely circumstantial.

Obviously higher stats, particularly DF, SC, SK and PH get you a higher chance of meeting your potential.

So yes you can absolutely overperform, but usually due to the fact that your team sucks and "someone has to score right?"

83 makes alot of sense, I mean I'm not looking for exact correlation between these numbers but it's interesting to think about what level you'd need to hit to even just be like a kinda consistent 3rd line threat - obviously shouldn't be the goal to be a 3rd liner but the attribute spreads still matter

[ThePerfectNut 563]

Look at Yun Chiang stats. He’s at 800+ TPE, but yet he couldn’t beat his rookie season 4 years into the VHL (Which is 35 points in his rookie season, pretty shit especially at 800 TPE)

 

Daniel Weaver who has ZERO scoring put up 42 points in his rookie season. Other rookies would be PPG every single season at around 450 TPE.

 

It’s pretty much random at the end of the day lmao, some users luck seems to be simply always better than others.

 

 

*But Yun Chiang did score 7 more goals then Weaver so yes high scoring will get you more goals at the end of the day, but not necessarily more points (Where defence comes in, not passing)

 

P.S: Passing sucks, idc if people try to make it seem good with logical reasons. It simply sucks 

[Pifferfish 593]

6 hours ago, Triller said:

When I joined the site I was happy to see a guide but was also a bit disappointed.  Seemed to indicate to me that variety in builds would be minimal and that small differences wouldn't make an impact on the sim.  I think a lot of younger users also prioritize scoring.  Most would rather score a goal than stop a goal cause it may look better on a score sheet.  Applying any defensive attributes would take away from the chance to put up more goals.  We can all easily compare where the top goal scorers put their points and copy it but, why?  Seems like a boring way to go.

 

I say guides need to be ignored and if my player or yours becomes a stat dump, it just builds the realism of the league.  4th liners are important to a well rounded team and if that is where my player ends up, I hope he is the best 4th liner there is.  Bottom of the best is only slightly better than the best of the worst.  Put your stats wherever you want and see what happens!

I think we are seeing a good bit of this. Look at this VHLM Finals, I'd wager the two teams boast 2 if the better defensive forward cores overall. I do wish some things were slightly different. Like for example, GR and BC... Virtually zero reason to ever choose GR unless you are at 70 BC already. Like things like this should be a tough choice. Also like... Maybe FG should give like ST. Right now, if you want ST as a DFD you have to invest in PC... Obviously the best choice... And then... SS or FO... If I'm a DFD I don't want those. Maybe Grit or BC or FG adding ST would balance this more and lead to a slight uptick in diversity. Obviously the people who built the system carefully put this all together and know better than I the balance but that's the main one I've seen.

[Pifferfish 593]

50 minutes ago, ThePerfectNut said:

Look at Yun Chiang stats. He’s at 800+ TPE, but yet he couldn’t beat his rookie season 4 years into the VHL (Which is 35 points in his rookie season, pretty shit especially at 800 TPE)

 

Daniel Weaver who has ZERO scoring put up 42 points in his rookie season. Other rookies would be PPG every single season at around 450 TPE.

 

It’s pretty much random at the end of the day lmao, some users luck seems to be simply always better than others.

 

 

*But Yun Chiang did score 7 more goals then Weaver so yes high scoring will get you more goals at the end of the day, but not necessarily more points (Where defence comes in, not passing)

 

P.S: Passing sucks, idc if people try to make it seem good with logical reasons. It simply sucks 

I actually think passing is quite important, just on a personal basis it won't make your player look good. That's the main issue. It serves a function but that function benefits the team.

[ThePerfectNut 563]

@Pifferfishnot really.

 

You can simply check both teams that made the finals. Out of the 12 forwards, only 2 of them “invested” in passing, but they only put in 30 TPE in it so I’m not gonna consider them passers.

 

One thing that I could possibly agree on is passing could be important for defenders, but again.

 

Out of the 8 defenders in these finals, only one of them truly invested in passing with 80. And guess what, the most points he got is 45 points in 4 seasons.

 

Yes most of those points were assist, but the top defenders in the league gets double those assist without having any passing + they’d still score goals. Only a handful of passing d-men gets a one good season every few seasons.

 

So to your point of benefiting the team, no it really doesn’t lmao

 

I could say the same thing for most seasons, but Im too lazy to look it up. As a dude who had two playmaking players, they absolutely sucked

[Pifferfish 593]

3 hours ago, ThePerfectNut said:

@Pifferfishnot really.

 

You can simply check both teams that made the finals. Out of the 12 forwards, only 2 of them “invested” in passing, but they only put in 30 TPE in it so I’m not gonna consider them passers.

 

One thing that I could possibly agree on is passing could be important for defenders, but again.

 

Out of the 8 defenders in these finals, only one of them truly invested in passing with 80. And guess what, the most points he got is 45 points in 4 seasons.

 

Yes most of those points were assist, but the top defenders in the league gets double those assist without having any passing + they’d still score goals. Only a handful of passing d-men gets a one good season every few seasons.

 

So to your point of benefiting the team, no it really doesn’t lmao

 

I could say the same thing for most seasons, but Im too lazy to look it up. As a dude who had two playmaking players, they absolutely sucked

I can't speak to the VHL but I'm telling you. Passing has a very important function. A situational function, but an important one nonetheless. At higher TPE I can see how that function is less meaningful and I can go into detail on that but end of the day at a macro level passing is important. For the individual no but on the whole of a team yes. I'll put it this way. A line with 3 good passers is fucking brain dead stupid. But having 1 passer will be pretty effective. Not for them as a player putting up points because a playmaker needs others to produce to have that seen on the stat sheet. I want to make a playmaker next and see what I can do with it. I believe I can make an incredibly effective player.

[Pifferfish 593]

3 hours ago, ThePerfectNut said:

@Pifferfishnot really.

 

You can simply check both teams that made the finals. Out of the 12 forwards, only 2 of them “invested” in passing, but they only put in 30 TPE in it so I’m not gonna consider them passers.

 

One thing that I could possibly agree on is passing could be important for defenders, but again.

 

Out of the 8 defenders in these finals, only one of them truly invested in passing with 80. And guess what, the most points he got is 45 points in 4 seasons.

 

Yes most of those points were assist, but the top defenders in the league gets double those assist without having any passing + they’d still score goals. Only a handful of passing d-men gets a one good season every few seasons.

 

So to your point of benefiting the team, no it really doesn’t lmao

 

I could say the same thing for most seasons, but Im too lazy to look it up. As a dude who had two playmaking players, they absolutely sucked

TLDR I essentially agree with you on the fact that we dont need many play makers. But I disagree with the idea that they are useless. At VHL with 800 TPE, I'd probably go a different route but at 400 I can see it being incredibly good for it's purpose 

[jacobcarson877 2,559]

Just now, Pifferfish said:

I want to make a playmaker next and see what I can do with it. I believe I can make an incredibly effective player.

You are a brave soul my friend. I think every single person who gave that a shot when the hybrid attributes came out has rerolled out of passing.

[Pifferfish 593]

9 minutes ago, jacobcarson877 said:

You are a brave soul my friend. I think every single person who gave that a shot when the hybrid attributes came out has rerolled out of passing.

I have two forward build ideas, one is much braver than a playmaker. But I'll save it until that time. Also, I think it's fair to suggest that the difference between the playmaker and sniper is just that a scorer will do what they do, good/bad team, good/bad lines good/bad coaching like all of that will hurt their realized value but they will do their things. The playmaker build kind of necessitates those extra parts being good. If they aren't tip top your player won't find that breakthrough.

 

[Triller 1,684]

3 hours ago, Pifferfish said:

I have two forward build ideas, one is much braver than a playmaker. But I'll save it until that time. Also, I think it's fair to suggest that the difference between the playmaker and sniper is just that a scorer will do what they do, good/bad team, good/bad lines good/bad coaching like all of that will hurt their realized value but they will do their things. The playmaker build kind of necessitates those extra parts being good. If they aren't tip top your player won't find that breakthrough.

 

Yeah, I think the more adventurous the better!  If everyone just uses the same mold, this will get stale very quickly.  It may be counterintuitive making a player without having the goal of them being a superstar but only a small percentage are in that category in the NHL, the rest are role players that fit the teams strategy.  I don't imagine ever seeing a sim engine elaborate enough to work that way but we won't know if the league is just McDavids and McDavid wanna bes.