That trend with people stepping down from VHLM GM

[Shindigs 1,771]

So there's a pretty common trend among people who step down from GMing, especially in the VHLM. Of going either full clicker or basically IA. And having now stepped down as VHLM GM, I certainly can see why that happens.

 

First of all, doing VHLM GMing well is kind of a passion project. You put a lot into it and you get very invested in it. So when you step down from that, it's probably because you're burned out (or close to it). Meaning that really you're stepping down because you need a break, and with how much of your weekly pay (especially now with the 4 a week pay) comes from the job. You suddenly need to do quite a bit more work ever week to max cap. When you're in a situation where you stepped down to do less work. Which to be fair 2 PTs vs. being a VHLM GM isn't even comparable. It's more like you're not likely to want to take on new stuff, when you just stepped down to take on less.

 

The other part is that when you become GM you start caring a lot less about your player, sure it's nice if it does well. But your primary concern is your team, and it doing well. I think just about every GM would tell you that they'd trade away every single award/HOF recognition/etc. on their player to win a single cup as GM. Because it's just that much more important to you. So how do you "un-flip" that switch when you're no longer GM and go back to caring only about your player (and by extension your player's team)? That is a tough one, and I don't think there's any one answer to it.

 

I'm still fully max earning like I always am, but I can't deny that I no longer care anywhere near as much about doing so as I did before I had Vegas. At this point I'm kind of flirting with the idea of if I'm even going to recreate after Bo or not. I see pro's and con's to both doing it and not doing it. So that will be a later decision. But it's no longer as given what it will be as it used to. Considering I already have the whole career of my next player planned out with depreciation plan and everything.

[Gustav 6,421]

I think stuff like this is a natural process of just...going through the stages of being a member. I'd also argue that in a lot of cases, people step down because they're less invested, rather than the other way around, but that's a discussion for another time.

 

I still bring up just how active I was as a noob as an example for these types of things because I feel like that's a very good example to have--I joined in February of 2019 and I distinctly remember a time in summer of 2019 when I was writing multiple (long!) media spots a week just because I felt like it. These days, I have trouble coming up with ideas for my one article a month-ish (I can always do the smaller stuff instead when I want to, and often I opt for that instead) and I couldn't imagine spending my entire life on the forum even though I used to do that.

 

I think a lot of this ties into the idea of drive-reduction theory, especially among the most active members. In short, the idea is that just about everything you do is because of a "drive"--not necessarily a motivation, like the word is often used, but more so a disturbance that causes someone to act in a way to reduce that disturbance. Especially for someone newer, that drive is to be accepted and to earn respect from more established members. I know because that was absolutely the case for me--I still remember thinking things like "holy shit, a real live VHL GM just liked my post" and "I bet I can get a ton of replies on this article if I tag everyone I talk about in it", things that never cross my mind today. I also distinctly remember talking to other VHLM GMs, when I was one, who straight-up said that their goal as a VHLM GM was to get "promoted" and earn a cooler-looking position.

 

There's a lot of (unintentional) attention-seeking behavior from newer people because of that drive to earn respect. I did it for sure. I'd say you've done it as well. And don't take that the wrong way, because I'd say I noticed exactly that from most people who joined after me and are now household names in the league. That's just how it goes, and it's 100% natural. 

 

But now that you've earned your respect, where's your drive? You're happy with what you've done as a VHLM GM, you're on top of the reputation leaderboard for the year (something I myself talked about a lot when I first ended up on top of said leaderboard), you're on the BoG, and absolutely no one will wonder who you are if you log onto Discord. You've reached that "equilibrium" state that the whole drive-reduction theory thing talks about, and you're asking perfectly natural questions about it--why, for example, should you plan out an entire next career of max earning? There's not much more respect to be earned from that, since you've already done it. I wasn't getting any more respect toward the end of my VHL GM career, and I had people ripping on me as Davos prepared to implode again, so I'd basically peaked. I was happy with what I'd done to change the culture of the team and I was ready to hand it off. Likewise, I'd imagine that if I can ever get the VHLM to look exactly the way I want, I'd probably be done running it.

 

I think the answer lies in realizing that that equilibrium state means that you've taken care of those disturbances in your mindset, and it's a good thing that they aren't forcing you to obsess over how active you can be anymore. Theoretically, this should be the most stress-free mindset you've ever had in this league--it just feels off because a lot of that stress is gone.

 

AND THAT'S OKAY. At the end of the day, it just involves coming to terms with the fact that your original goals as a member have been met and moving forward the way you want to--even though you don't quite know what that means yet.

[Triller 1,663]

This is something I thought about before I even decided to make my player after I joined.  Will I be as interested in this whole deal in season 8 as am now?  I set a high precedent for myself when it comes to earning.  Creating the graphics that I do are also a bit more involved and sustaining that for a whole career is likely not super reasonable though I will continue to try.  Earning rep was certainly an initial driving factor but after seeing how little attention most posts get, my motivation shifted to just trying to create stuff I was happy about and any attention would just be a bonus.  Eventually it will start to feel too much like work and after this player, I will definitely take a break.

 

As for the GM stuff, it was very interesting to see the dedication that you all put in to the roles.  Sure you get some TPE for your troubles but to do that and maintain a competitive character would be too much for me.  I wonder if there is a solution that could be discussed for those who might want to lean into GMing without a player character but be able to bank only their job pay to later apply it to a player if they want to get into it again.  I am relatively new so there may be something like that already in place but I haven't heard anything about it. 

 

You get your job pay but that is the only TPE you can bank.  You can still participate in graphics and articles and all that but you can't earn on that as you wouldn't want someone max earning and banking for multiple seasons to come in with a 1000 TPE player.  Someone could still possibly do that after a lot of seasons of just job pay but maybe the total is capped?  That way, GMs can focus on GMing and not feel like they need to have a player until they are ready to do both or take a break and just be a player.

 

Again, if this basically exists then let me know where I can read up on it lol

[Gustav 6,421]

37 minutes ago, Triller said:

This is something I thought about before I even decided to make my player after I joined.  Will I be as interested in this whole deal in season 8 as am now?  I set a high precedent for myself when it comes to earning.  Creating the graphics that I do are also a bit more involved and sustaining that for a whole career is likely not super reasonable though I will continue to try.  Earning rep was certainly an initial driving factor but after seeing how little attention most posts get, my motivation shifted to just trying to create stuff I was happy about and any attention would just be a bonus.  Eventually it will start to feel too much like work and after this player, I will definitely take a break.

 

As for the GM stuff, it was very interesting to see the dedication that you all put in to the roles.  Sure you get some TPE for your troubles but to do that and maintain a competitive character would be too much for me.  I wonder if there is a solution that could be discussed for those who might want to lean into GMing without a player character but be able to bank only their job pay to later apply it to a player if they want to get into it again.  I am relatively new so there may be something like that already in place but I haven't heard anything about it. 

 

You get your job pay but that is the only TPE you can bank.  You can still participate in graphics and articles and all that but you can't earn on that as you wouldn't want someone max earning and banking for multiple seasons to come in with a 1000 TPE player.  Someone could still possibly do that after a lot of seasons of just job pay but maybe the total is capped?  That way, GMs can focus on GMing and not feel like they need to have a player until they are ready to do both or take a break and just be a player.

 

Again, if this basically exists then let me know where I can read up on it lol

 

I talked about why I think GMs should ALWAYS have a player in one of my articles a while back. Basically, my opinion is that GMs, as representatives of the league, should be fully contributing to the league as long as they're GMs. I don't think a GM has to be a max earner, but if you as a GM are not visible and active in the community, you are not meeting the standards of what a GM should be no matter how good your team is. Someone who can't find the time to write an article (or even just post on the forum) now and then probably shouldn't have a job where the time you put into the community has a strong effect on the interest of an entire group of players. 

 

Aside from straight-up incentivizing GMs to be inactive on the player end (imagine how many people would sit around for like a year and a half and roll up on the next deadline with an already-capped player), it introduces an advantage for GMs over other people. If I don't want to GM, how am I supposed to ever be the top player in my class? Alternatively, if I'm a GM and I'm no longer all that interested in putting in time for my team, why should I give up my job when it's giving me free TPE for doing nothing?

 

I just don't think it's too much to ask that GMs actually care about the community...and if you're not feeling that, it shouldn't hurt you to step back from the job. After all, you can always apply later on down the road!

[Triller 1,663]

53 minutes ago, Gustav said:

 

I talked about why I think GMs should ALWAYS have a player in one of my articles a while back. Basically, my opinion is that GMs, as representatives of the league, should be fully contributing to the league as long as they're GMs. I don't think a GM has to be a max earner, but if you as a GM are not visible and active in the community, you are not meeting the standards of what a GM should be no matter how good your team is. Someone who can't find the time to write an article (or even just post on the forum) now and then probably shouldn't have a job where the time you put into the community has a strong effect on the interest of an entire group of players. 

 

Aside from straight-up incentivizing GMs to be inactive on the player end (imagine how many people would sit around for like a year and a half and roll up on the next deadline with an already-capped player), it introduces an advantage for GMs over other people. If I don't want to GM, how am I supposed to ever be the top player in my class? Alternatively, if I'm a GM and I'm no longer all that interested in putting in time for my team, why should I give up my job when it's giving me free TPE for doing nothing?

 

I just don't think it's too much to ask that GMs actually care about the community...and if you're not feeling that, it shouldn't hurt you to step back from the job. After all, you can always apply later on down the road!

Never said that a GM should not be active in the community and if you are implying that a GM needs to have a player to be active in the community then I simply have to disagree.  GMs have to have knowledge of all teams and all leagues plus players who are active on the forums to help inform their decisions of draft picks, trades, and simply who would be fun to have in the LR.  They comment and react on posts and overall have to help keep people who ONLY have players, engaged in the community and their LRs.  All of that on top of managing their lines and strategizing for sims.  I would argue a comment on a player graphic is more valuable to the overall community and the user who posted than if the GM posts a graphic of their own player to show their "engagement" in the forums.

 

I have to say as well that you seem to have the opinion that GMs would abuse any system put in place to help them focus on being a GM and that they would collect their, "free TPE for doing nothing" as if their overall contributions to the VHL as only GMs are considered, "doing nothing." From what I have experienced in my short time here, GMs contribute far more to this league than any individual who is posting to simply make their player better and earn what they need.  If a GM isn't doing all those things I listed above then them having a player isn't going to fix that.

 

I guess I put more value in what they do as GMs since it seems to be a lot harder than simply having a player.  Do they need to have had a player go through the system, absolutely, but do they need to drag one along cause you think so, no.  This would also bring up the question, how good does their player need to be and how much should they earn for you to consider it good enough for them to continue to be a GM?

[Gustav 6,421]

16 minutes ago, Triller said:

Never said that a GM should not be active in the community and if you are implying that a GM needs to have a player to be active in the community then I simply have to disagree.  GMs have to have knowledge of all teams and all leagues plus players who are active on the forums to help inform their decisions of draft picks, trades, and simply who would be fun to have in the LR.  They comment and react on posts and overall have to help keep people who ONLY have players, engaged in the community and their LRs.  All of that on top of managing their lines and strategizing for sims.  I would argue a comment on a player graphic is more valuable to the overall community and the user who posted than if the GM posts a graphic of their own player to show their "engagement" in the forums.

 

I'll say that IN GENERAL, GMs do very good work of doing this regardless of player activity. There will always be exceptions, but it's nice to see.

 

I'll also point out that every GM who can be bothered to stay active in public on the forum, comment on graphics, and whatnot, is also actively maintaining a decent player. They don't need any special reward to do that; it just happens because, surprise, having a player is a big part of the league experience and most who care about the league will have some sort of drive to earn consistently. 

 

It's not that a GM NEEDS to have a player, otherwise they're not active, it's that I just don't see the point in giving GMs an extra reward for removing themselves from doing a thing that contributes to the community.

 

 

22 minutes ago, Triller said:

have to say as well that you seem to have the opinion that GMs would abuse any system put in place to help them focus on being a GM

 

Having been a GM for years in both the VHLM and VHL, I can assure you that this is 100% true, and that GMs will abuse anything they're given the opportunity to. If you're given a perfectly legal option to do something that benefits you, of course you're going to do it. That doesn't make you bad at all--GMs have done plenty of awful things in my time in the league, and I've always been more annoyed that the system allows it to happen than I've been at the GMs themselves when it's something that goes on for seasons on end. I've also been involved in a lot of policy-making in BoG/VHLM Commish stuff/just yelling about things on the forum in general and I can tell you there's something weird being pulled somewhere more often than not. In the VHLM alone, I've seen people ignoring inactive rules, dodging draft requirements, having players create in the middle of a late round of the draft conveniently right when their pick came up (back when that was still doable), getting access to inactive accounts and keeping them updating, cutting actives to make room for recreates, lying in waiver pitches...the list goes on. I love our GMs, but competition sometimes makes good people do strange things.

 

 

27 minutes ago, Triller said:

From what I have experienced in my short time here, GMs contribute far more to this league than any individual who is posting to simply make their player better and earn what they need.  If a GM isn't doing all those things I listed above then them having a player isn't going to fix that.

 

If a GM isn't doing all those things, they shouldn't be GM. Plain and simple. 

 

It's hard to be a GM and do all of those things consistently. But honestly...it's not super hard to be a GM and put in no effort. A big reason why I stopped being GM was that I just wasn't trying as hard anymore. Had I continued to not try, I'd probably still have the job today--I just realized that I could be doing better and it was time to take a step back rather than hold onto a job that I wasn't really feeling. And guess what? If there were an incentive for me to hold onto that job at that point in my player's career (I was almost done with my last player!) I could very well have (and probably would have) continued to stick with the job that I wouldn't be doing very well so Vandelay could get a nice bonus and I could be #1 in my draft class. That wouldn't have been good for the league at all, but it would have happened and I'd be far from the only case.

 

I think what I said initially should have been framed differently. My "GMs should always have a player" argument was based on a situation that existed at the time but isn't really a thing anymore. I don't mean to share that article to explain 100% what I mean here, but I do think it's relevant on some level because at the time, we had GMs more or less threatening to be complete NPCs because their player situation wasn't working out the way they wanted.

 

 

Way more than trying to say "no, because I say GMs should have a player", and in far fewer words, my point is:

 

1. Yes, I absolutely do think that system would be abused.

2. That's precisely why it shouldn't exist.

 

 

Please understand that I really appreciate it when people bring up new ideas, and I'm not trying to shout you down or anything (I just write a lot). I think you've got a great future in the league 

[Triller 1,663]

I appreciate the response and am glad to have a discussion.  I know from what I have seen that new users suggesting ideas can get on longer serving members nerves.

 

27 minutes ago, Gustav said:

I'll also point out that every GM who can be bothered to stay active in public on the forum, comment on graphics, and whatnot, is also actively maintaining a decent player. They don't need any special reward to do that; it just happens because, surprise, having a player is a big part of the league experience and most who care about the league will have some sort of drive to earn consistently. 

I don't know where I suggested that they get a special reward.  I actually said that they have to maintain community engagement but can only claim their job TPE if they have no player.  No media spots, graphics, press conferences can be claimed.  Just their job TPE can be banked to a point.  And as you said, if they can't do their job, they shouldn't have it.  A bad GM with a player is not better than bad GM without one.

 

33 minutes ago, Gustav said:

Having been a GM for years in both the VHLM and VHL, I can assure you that this is 100% true, and that GMs will abuse anything they're given the opportunity to. If you're given a perfectly legal option to do something that benefits you, of course you're going to do it.

 

Sounds like a problem with the system as you said but it is unfortunate that past and possibly present GMs don't realise what this is that they are attempting to exploit.  Without diminishing the efforts of everyone who keep this league running, it is a sim game.  It also sounds like some of those GM exploits in regards to their players would be solved if they didn't have one! Can't complain about your player situation if you ain't got one!

 

41 minutes ago, Gustav said:

I just realized that I could be doing better and it was time to take a step back rather than hold onto a job that I wasn't really feeling.

 

I wonder what this would be like the other way around?  If a GM decided that they could be a much better GM and serve their team and community better if they were allowed to focus without a player?  Maybe they have had enough of the meta of player builds and find managing to be the best way for them to contribute to the community.  Again, this is all reliant on a GM being good but that is relevant regardless of the situation.

 

I know a lot about burnout as my industry is notorious for it, so it sucks to see people burnout on a hobby that is supposed to offer a fun experience and in some cases, an escape.  Again, I appreciate the discussion!  It helps me learn more about the league and those who keep it running! 

[Enorama 2,038]

12 minutes ago, Triller said:

I know from what I have seen that new users suggesting ideas can get on longer serving members nerves.

 

Only Bek

 

Actually though, it's always worth having the conversation unless you're coming in with the idea that you've got some genius idea that nobody has ever thought about.

[Shindigs 1,771]

So can I add the discussion this article caused as added word count. Rebrand this as a MS and claim it for the next 2 years, or no? 

[Arce 755]

Just do what I did, a 10 year break did wonders for my re-found motivation for the league!

[Shindigs 1,771]

1 hour ago, Arce said:

Just do what I did, a 10 year break did wonders for my re-found motivation for the league!

Nice short little break.

[Triller 1,663]

10 hours ago, Shindigs said:

So can I add the discussion this article caused as added word count. Rebrand this as a MS and claim it for the next 2 years, or no? 

I somehow can comment a crazy amount of words but find it almost impossible to write something from scratch to claim lol  Should be a discussion point task that I can claim instead of a second review!

[Spartan 4,403]

3 hours ago, Triller said:

I somehow can comment a crazy amount of words but find it almost impossible to write something from scratch to claim lol  Should be a discussion point task that I can claim instead of a second review!

I'm like 68% sure that you can claim responses as tasks if they meet the task requirement, might just need Blue approval first

[Triller 1,663]

2 minutes ago, Spartan said:

I'm like 68% sure that you can claim responses as tasks if they meet the task requirement, might just need Blue approval first

Even if I could just claim it as a review I would be good with that.

[Gustav 6,421]

35 minutes ago, Spartan said:

I'm like 68% sure that you can claim responses as tasks if they meet the task requirement, might just need Blue approval first

 

Holy shit WHAT

 

I might have the next 5 years covered...

[JCarson 727]

On 11/20/2022 at 7:29 AM, Shindigs said:

So there's a pretty common trend among people who step down from GMing, especially in the VHLM. Of going either full clicker or basically IA. And having now stepped down as VHLM GM, I certainly can see why that happens.

 

First of all, doing VHLM GMing well is kind of a passion project. You put a lot into it and you get very invested in it. So when you step down from that, it's probably because you're burned out (or close to it). Meaning that really you're stepping down because you need a break, and with how much of your weekly pay (especially now with the 4 a week pay) comes from the job. You suddenly need to do quite a bit more work ever week to max cap. When you're in a situation where you stepped down to do less work. Which to be fair 2 PTs vs. being a VHLM GM isn't even comparable. It's more like you're not likely to want to take on new stuff, when you just stepped down to take on less.

 

The other part is that when you become GM you start caring a lot less about your player, sure it's nice if it does well. But your primary concern is your team, and it doing well. I think just about every GM would tell you that they'd trade away every single award/HOF recognition/etc. on their player to win a single cup as GM. Because it's just that much more important to you. So how do you "un-flip" that switch when you're no longer GM and go back to caring only about your player (and by extension your player's team)? That is a tough one, and I don't think there's any one answer to it.

 

I'm still fully max earning like I always am, but I can't deny that I no longer care anywhere near as much about doing so as I did before I had Vegas. At this point I'm kind of flirting with the idea of if I'm even going to recreate after Bo or not. I see pro's and con's to both doing it and not doing it. So that will be a later decision. But it's no longer as given what it will be as it used to. Considering I already have the whole career of my next player planned out with depreciation plan and everything.

As a quick review of this article:  I like the fact that the author is being completely honest about how they are feeling with the change in position.  I have never been a GM so don't know the difficulties associated with the role.  But i have had enough conversations with individuals that are getting job pay to realize that it can be very difficult for them to write media spots, articles and other piece to earn TPE.  There is numerous aspects of this VHL experience and the constant parade of TPE earning can begin to become a challenge.  For anyone dedicated to being a full TPE earner I want to acknowledge your dedication to what you do.  Keep going.

 

Give this article a 10/10, purely out of respect for the honesty.

[Spartan 4,403]

10 minutes ago, Gustav said:

 

Holy shit WHAT

 

I might have the next 5 years covered...

I THINK

[Gustav 6,421]

Just now, Spartan said:

I THINK

 

I mean I've seen people copy-pasting their replies as a separate media spot and getting that approved just fine.

 

I think going for case-by-case approval is the way to go on this because a lot of replies depend on context...but I could go a long time without ever writing a word on the forum if I could just go back and comb through my old replies (not that that's the intent of that being allowed).

[Spartan 4,403]

50 minutes ago, Gustav said:

 

I mean I've seen people copy-pasting their replies as a separate media spot and getting that approved just fine.

 

I think going for case-by-case approval is the way to go on this because a lot of replies depend on context...but I could go a long time without ever writing a word on the forum if I could just go back and comb through my old replies (not that that's the intent of that being allowed).

Well back claims still get a line drawn at a season ago, so you couldn't really reach that far for stuff anyways

[Shindigs 1,771]

8 hours ago, Spartan said:

Well back claims still get a line drawn at a season ago, so you couldn't really reach that far for stuff anyways

I mean he wrote enough in this thread alone to last him this entire season. So that should work out.