Let's Play A Game + Suggestions for the pronoun tags

[BladeMaiden 1,807]

https://anchor.fm/huddlehussy/episodes/Lets-Play-A-Game--Suggestions-for-the-pronoun-tags-e19u66i

 

1. Blade Trying to say user and player names S80-82
2. Then I go through what could make the tags more visible and decreasing the likely hood of user errors/ more freedom for users

 

 

30min Podcast - Claiming 1/2 - 2021/07/11

[Spartan 4,003]

11 minutes ago, BladeMaiden said:

Then I go through what could make the tags more visible and decreasing the likely hood of user errors/ more freedom for users

Overall nice podcast, audio levels might have been reduced a tad bit too much, had to crank my volume up a bit to hear you. I was particularly curious about this 2nd point so I skipped ahead to find it, mainly because it is a growing topic in not just our community but in the world. With the addition of tags in the main server, there's been a lot of attention on them. Personally, I hated the tags as they were before Dlamb changed a few of them and is still redesigning them to all fit the new theme.

 

However, these role emotes are purely a byproduct from being at a level 2 boost for the server, which I'm not sure if it's sustainable unless there are people willing to boost every month. Essentially, I don't know if role tags for pronouns is a long term solution, although even I would rather see those as role emotes than the modge podge that we have now lol. However, I was just thinking that it could just be easier for people to add "he/him" into their server nicknames. There's quite a bit of leeway for name lengths, and that would be an easy and clear long-term method (after my 2 minutes of thinking about it) to make your pronouns known. A lot of GM's used to identify themselves as a GM beyond the color coding with " | MOS GM" as an example after their names. 

 

I get that it's inconvenient to have to change your name to match your pronouns, but I'm not really sure if we can expect everyone to open up everyone else's profiles to see what their selected pronouns are, if there are even any. I was made aware of alternate pronouns earlier today of a user whose profile I didn't even think to open up. While adding pronouns to nicknames may feel restricting to the user, I can't think of a better long-term method that won't rely on continuous server boosts from benevolent members. Love that you brought the topic up though! Was literally thinking about the difficulty of recognizing folks' pronouns from that situation earlier today, perfect timing  

[BladeMaiden 1,807]

5 minutes ago, Spartan said:

 I'm not really sure if we can expect everyone to open up everyone else's profiles to see what their selected pronouns are

This right here is the TLDR of the podcast, if your pronouns are that important to you put them up loud and proud and upfront. I honestly don't want to hurt feelings and i know the majority of the community is like that as well.

 

Idk if i said it but i don't think i am an expert on any of this stuff but i just think it should be talked about because we do need a long term obvious solution to the issue and I don't want to clutter the discord but i also want people to feel safe and respected. hopefully we can find a good mix

 

thank you for your thoughts on this topic and for not skewering me for my basic shower thoughts on the subject, there are multiple things we could do. As with most things i am just riffing and poppin out ideas in the hopes that a few will really make a difference or inspire others that will.

[BladeMaiden 1,807]

30min Podcast - Claiming 2/2 - 2021/11/14

[fishy 1,755]

thanks for the acknowledgement @BladeMaiden, i appreciate it

 

6 hours ago, Spartan said:

these role emotes are purely a byproduct from being at a level 2 boost for the server

although this is partly true (one day i popped into the discord and beav had taken it upon himself to begin a revolution with role emotes), we have received feedback from new folks that the emotes help identify people with specific roles. it's especially true for folks who have a role above GMing (e.g., moon and cow), as the color of their name corresponds to the "higher ranking" rather than the GM role.

 

to the conversation about pronouns:

 

in theory, i think that adding a role color for different pronoun selections could be helpful. one of the affordances of the forum is that your pronoun selection (if made) is visible but not aggressive–it's not your only identifier, which i like a lot. i agree that the discord pronoun roles aren't as easily accessible as the pronoun selection on the forums (although, truthfully, finding the pronoun role on discord isn't all that difficult, it's an extra step).

 

one of the issues with color coding pronoun selections is that some folks do have more than one pronoun preference, and it can be any combination. as a result, people would have to pick one color, and that would likely be the only way that people referred to them. as i made the switch from exclusively she/her to they/them, i told people that my pronouns were she/they, partly because that made other people most comfortable. i've seen a lot of people talking about how, a lot of times, as soon as you give pronouns indicating a binary, that's the one that other people choose. i had the same experience. no matter whether i told folks that my pronouns were she/they or they/she, i always got coded with she/her.

 

and that's really frustrating. it's extremely annoying to tell people that you prefer more than one set only for them to use one. as i'm sure you know, using more than one set of pronouns doesn't simply mean flux. there are a lot of varied experiences among folks who use more than one set of pronouns.

 

another issue i foresee arising with color coding pronoun roles would be the fact that some folks simply aren't comfortable being really aggressive about their selection. for example, as i was coming out, i liked that the forum pronoun selection was subtle. it was there, but using they/them wasn't my entire personality on the forums. i worry that folks who change their preference (either regularly or just once) would find color coded roles to be really, for lack of better term, loud. then, folks who aren't comfortable selecting one of the options or aren't really sure what their preferred pronouns are stand out from everyone else, which is also awkward.

 

6 hours ago, Spartan said:

that it could just be easier for people to add "he/him" into their server nicknames

 

this would probably be the best option that discord allows. that, or adding a role emote to the pronoun role - that way it'd be visible but next to a username as opposed to engrained into it. again, though, we run into the issue of people being forced into a single box with the emotes or standing out when they don't make a selection.

 

the whole situation is complicated and messy. i'm glad that folks are talking about it, though, because that tells me that i'm not the only one concerned with it. i feel like the forums spoil us a bit with the affordance of pronoun selections that don't, in essence, change the identity of the user. when you add a color or emote to the selection, that becomes embedded with the user, and that's kind of intimidating. it can feel like a really large commitment. adding a little selection to the end of your profile thingy on the forums is much quieter, and i like that.

Edited November 8, 2021 by fishy

[BladeMaiden 1,807]

5 minutes ago, fishy said:

 

the whole situation is complicated and messy. i'm glad that folks are talking about it, though, because that tells me that i'm not the only one concerned with it. i feel like the forums spoil us a bit with the affordance of pronoun selections that don't, in essence, change the identity of the user. when you add a color or emote to the selection, that becomes embedded with the user, and that's kind of intimidating. it can feel like a really large commitment. adding a little selection to the end of your profile thingy on the forums is much quieter, and i like that.

I think the in your face options might turn more into a necessary evil, but in the end  of it all i just wanted to get the ball rolling. I honestly think that if it means enough to someone that they would go to a mod about it that they should also be willing to have them displayed. It kind of has to be a give and take scenario and I'm going to say I might be the worst user to talk to about user names defining someone for a couple of reasons,  1.) I have frequently gone by alternate names in different sim sites and 2.) it didn't change much of the over all perception of me. I know many of us go by custom names in our servers via the nickname, maybe it gets whittled down to you put (He/She/Them) in your nickname, just like people have done with being a GM or AGM for years. It's not a glamorous solution but it doesn't mess with colours or roles and people can change it as often as they like and it wouldn't be weird because people already frequently change their nicknames. It doesn't change the problem of it being in people's faces but I feel like it almost has to be in order to be effective. I think my main concern is that with subtly comes the higher risk of things going awry, and unfortunately that means we would run the risk of what was happening with no tags at all because no one saw them. Someone's feelings are bound to get a little trampled in the mix and i can just see someone pointing of a tag was present. The offender says they didn't see it and then what? Chances are the one user didn't see, yet the plaintiff in this case would still be hurt and by putting up that tag might feel they are rightful in asking for punishments for people not being considerate. The problem is no one is going to ever be able to guess how a person would like to be referred to, especially it is a situation by situation kind of thing (they would never be able to be that intuitive unless they knew you super well  or made it painfully obvious). So what i guess i am saying how subtle the VHL or users wants to be on this issue should determine how they govern the outcomes of missteps as well. It's hard to a ying without a yang, perhaps the truth is you can't be subtle and then get mad when they don't notice of check the hidden spot but the flip side of that is we can't do nothing to protect the right of our members to express their identity how they choose. Also when you consider you kind of need an absolute line to make things easier to moderate, making something overly obvious usually makes it so people can't cry ignorance so the decisions on how to proceed usually go much easier in those cases.

 

In the end i just hope that something can be found that works better than the current cumbersome system.

 

 

[Josh 1,600]

I'm curious what strategies people employ in real life scenarios as I use the same method in Discord and at work. Unless otherwise told (or I see a role selected / email signature) I will refer to someone using they/them pronouns. From my understanding this is acceptable but please let me know if this is the wrong way to go about things.

[JardyB10 4,834]

On 11/7/2021 at 10:55 PM, Spartan said:

modge podge

It’s “hodge podge” you lunatic.

 

The pronoun thing is indeed tricky. I feel bad when I misgender folks, and I have slowly been getting used to going with “they” until proven otherwise. I for one am happy to be sharply corrected when I err, but I get that one shouldn’t need to correct 100 different people.

 

Ultimately, I think if it means enough to someone, they can take it upon themselves to make their pronouns a little more visible, or start a whisper campaign or something. 

 

 

[BladeMaiden 1,807]

On 11/8/2021 at 11:15 AM, Josh said:

I'm curious what strategies people employ in real life scenarios as I use the same method in Discord and at work. Unless otherwise told (or I see a role selected / email signature) I will refer to someone using they/them pronouns. From my understanding this is acceptable but please let me know if this is the wrong way to go about things.

I think people forget it's just as offensive to call a person who prefers he or she a them/they.  The assumption that everyone is ok with a branch term is what got people in that "Other" category using  they/ them but hoisting that terminology on people who are not ok with it is just as wrong. I think when the pendulum shifts people often forget to look back and logic it out in terms of the base message. No one should have any type of self identifier hoisted upon them, they/ them is not a catch all and many people particularly in the older generation might be offended by the use of such branch terms, and tbh they have just as much right to correct you as someone who likes to have a they/ them identifier.

 

At least from how i look at it to be truly inclusive you try to respect where everyone is coming from and move beyond your expectations to make others feel comfortable, at least that is the current expectation. As a person on the receiving end you respect that people are trying and be grateful for the effort. No one is going to get it 100% of the time  and people are bound to make mistakes but just being courteous and upfront should make it easier. I think reminding people that the wounds you carry due to the world are not everyone's fault, in these cases it might be wrong for me to remind people to not take everything personally because tbh some ppl have a lot of trauma attached to words and i myself know i have a few triggers. My end point is the situation is complex and there is not a one size fits all (or even most) solution. If you want a real answer you need to aim to be truly inclusive, you need to consider the far left, the far right and everything in the middle to make a safe space for all, and it's not easy. My recommendation is what it always is, look form as many perspectives as you can, especially unpopular ones, and try for something that reads as fair and respectful for all.

 

To keep it short and simple, no They /them is not a catch all. When in doubt use people's names or use what they have asked you to call them by.

[BladeMaiden 1,807]

On 11/9/2021 at 10:04 PM, JardyB10 said:

It’s “hodge podge” you lunatic.

 

The pronoun thing is indeed tricky. I feel bad when I misgender folks, and I have slowly been getting used to going with “they” until proven otherwise. I for one am happy to be sharply corrected when I err, but I get that one shouldn’t need to correct 100 different people.

 

Ultimately, I think if it means enough to someone, they can take it upon themselves to make their pronouns a little more visible, or start a whisper campaign or something. 

 

 

 

-> helpful hint, just use their names if you ever get stuck (as a person who is really right wing or old fashion might be offended by the use of they) tbh a name is the only truly neutral these days.

 

ex. She talked to everyone involved

      Blade talked to everyone involved

[BladeMaiden 1,807]

Claim 2/2 week of Nov 21, 2021