Jardy's Hecking Podcast, S2 Episode 4: Playoff Wrap-up and More Meta Ranting

[JardyB10 4,865]

*LISTENER DISCRETION ADVISED*

 

I say "fuck."

 

https://anchor.fm/jardy-b/episodes/Jardys-Hecking-Podcast--S2-Episode-4-Playoff-Wrap-up-and-More-Meta-Ranting-e1g9eo3

 

 

On today's episode, I intend to make this podcast 5 minutes and go 25 minutes instead. Also:

- VHL Playoff wrap-up

- Vancouver meta musings; putting Nyko ON BLAST! sort of but not really. (Surely he's used to it though ;p)

- VHLE Playoff wrap-up

- VHLM Playoff wrap-up

 

Mostly this isn't that interesting.

 

Mentions:

@Nykonax @fonziGG somewhat @MexicanCow123 @Zetterberg @Probably others who can say

[Shindigs 1,771]

Quote

"Custom Sim Engine"

Starting cost for a ground up new sim engine would be 10k, and there is absolutely no guarantee it would even be good. Cause most sim engines aren't.

[Nykonax 1,564]

yea i dont let the hate get to me at this point. imo it's insane to think that all the other GMs in the league, if they knew about meta and had vancouver in S80, would've purposely made their team worse to use meta. I can understand why people are upset about it, I was upset about it when the team in SHL did it, but I think there are some differences between us and them.

 

The SHL stuff would've happened probably around S70? Tbf yea asking you to reroll was bad, and you were the only person I asked to reroll lmao. It's a common scouting question in other leagues like SHL/PBE/ISFL so I thought it was fine. I think the difference between what I did and what happened in SHL was in SHL the GM's made all their players reroll to meta, so I tried to avoid that. Instead, I just traded and acquired players who already had meta builds, which I honestly think is fine. As a GM should be trying to build the best team possible, and if the best players these low tpe meta players, then that's who I acquired. I don't think it's any different from before, when teams acquired 900 tpa players who they thought were the best, it just turns out they arent. I think that a lot of luck also went into our cup runs, like meta isn't some insane unbeatable 100% winrate thing, we tested 50% vs. moscow every season and then sub 50 vs. LA this season. And if you want to flame me for test simming, go for it, but I didn't change lines once in playoffs over the last 3 seasons, I just tested to see our win chances lmao. 

 

I think I got one single congratulatory message for winning the cup over the past 3 seasons, and that was from IR the other day. I also won't be putting any effort into finding a new meta, I'll just be building what I personally think is most efficient, and I have a couple theories on what could be good but nothing I'm going to test outside of the VHL.

[JardyB10 4,865]

6 hours ago, Nykonax said:

yea i dont let the hate get to me at this point. imo it's insane to think that all the other GMs in the league, if they knew about meta and had vancouver in S80, would've purposely made their team worse to use meta. I can understand why people are upset about it, I was upset about it when the team in SHL did it, but I think there are some differences between us and them.

 

The SHL stuff would've happened probably around S70? Tbf yea asking you to reroll was bad, and you were the only person I asked to reroll lmao. It's a common scouting question in other leagues like SHL/PBE/ISFL so I thought it was fine. I think the difference between what I did and what happened in SHL was in SHL the GM's made all their players reroll to meta, so I tried to avoid that. Instead, I just traded and acquired players who already had meta builds, which I honestly think is fine. As a GM should be trying to build the best team possible, and if the best players these low tpe meta players, then that's who I acquired. I don't think it's any different from before, when teams acquired 900 tpa players who they thought were the best, it just turns out they arent. I think that a lot of luck also went into our cup runs, like meta isn't some insane unbeatable 100% winrate thing, we tested 50% vs. moscow every season and then sub 50 vs. LA this season. And if you want to flame me for test simming, go for it, but I didn't change lines once in playoffs over the last 3 seasons, I just tested to see our win chances lmao. 

 

I think I got one single congratulatory message for winning the cup over the past 3 seasons, and that was from IR the other day. I also won't be putting any effort into finding a new meta, I'll just be building what I personally think is most efficient, and I have a couple theories on what could be good but nothing I'm going to test outside of the VHL.

Hey now, I’m pretty sure I congratulated y’all on the threepeat in the game thread.

 

I think the trouble with it is just how gray the situation is. You didn’t do anything “wrong” per se, it was simply actions that had predictably negative consequences. Again, it’s entirely more the system’s fault than yours because you’re right, why shouldn’t you be putting the best team together possible within your power?

 

At the same time, one didn’t need to be part of the SHL to see that that’s gonna go horribly wrong. When your strategy establishes the amount of success that it did, it nearly demands that everyone else needs to employ the same strategy to keep up. Yes, teams like Moscow or Calgary or Seattle COULD have beat you, it wasn’t impossible, or even HORRIBLY unlikely. But the reality is most the time it’s the meta team that’s going to have success. As a result, this eventually leads to a culture (and already had) where new people show up to the league and the vets say, “Hello, welcome to the Clone Academy, if you want any success max your Scoring and Defence, don’t bother with these 3-4 attributes. Thank you have a nice day.” That isn’t fun or good for the overall health of the league.

 

I have no issue with some test simming, I did the same thing when I was GM. It’s one thing to test line combos and strategies against an upcoming opponent. But it sounds like SHL took it to a very poor extreme, where they had a group of people putting together hypothetical teams and did tons of test simming. STHS is far too flimsy for that. So I’m glad you aren’t planning on doing that with the Hybrid system, nor should anyone else, because it potentially would just land the whole league back to this same situation, which no one should want.

[JardyB10 4,865]

And to clarify, I don’t want to come off in that post like I’m condemning you or anyone else on Vancouver. I think this “meta saga” was inevitable to some extent, and frankly it’s probably ultimately good that it was exploited and hopefully now fixed sooner than later. You ultimately did do a good job with the team obviously, and I’m hopeful that these new changes will make it so it won’t be as easy for you next time  

[Nykonax 1,564]

3 hours ago, JardyB10 said:

Hey now, I’m pretty sure I congratulated y’all on the threepeat in the game thread.

oh yeah I was just talking about discord DMs.

 

3 hours ago, JardyB10 said:

When your strategy establishes the amount of success that it did, it nearly demands that everyone else needs to employ the same strategy to keep up. Yes, teams like Moscow or Calgary or Seattle COULD have beat you, it wasn’t impossible, or even HORRIBLY unlikely. But the reality is most the time it’s the meta team that’s going to have success

I think a lot of the problems with meta was that the community thinks that teams with high tpe should be the ones winning, because it equates to work put into the league, and if you put in more work you should be more succesful. Problem with meta is that it doesn't require as much work, and is just as competitive with people who do put in a lot of work, so makes people question why they put in all the work they do if they could do less for the same success. Which I don't disagree with.

 

3 hours ago, JardyB10 said:

But it sounds like SHL took it to a very poor extreme, where they had a group of people putting together hypothetical teams and did tons of test simming. STHS is far too flimsy for that. So I’m glad you aren’t planning on doing that with the Hybrid system, nor should anyone else, because it potentially would just land the whole league back to this same situation, which no one should want

SHL definitely tested actual sim engine theories, like which stats make you good, which make you bad, different attribute line combinations. I don't think there will be anything new in that aspect for STHS, low passing and high scoring will always be good. I think a new meta would be formed just with how tpe is allocated in builds now. I have theories that like prioritizing defense over scoring might be really good, but I'm not going to test that or how like a whole team with 70sc and 90df would perform against a team with 80sc and 80df.

[ctots 400]

I want to hear more about the process of frying rocks and how a person turns that into a career. You may consider this my formal application for the position. I have no experience or knowledge.

[JardyB10 4,865]

4 hours ago, ctots said:

I want to hear more about the process of frying rocks and how a person turns that into a career. You may consider this my formal application for the position. I have no experience or knowledge.

Perfect, you don't need it! It was a pretty chill job. But bear in mind that you also have to sit in a dusty ass trailer for 12 hours, sometimes on night shift, and also there's this tedious step where you have to wash the dirt and rocks repeatedly. YOU'RE WASHING DIRT! It does get cleaner, but if you do it TRULY properly it takes forever, because you're cleaning dirt.