[S92] Milo Fox has retired!

[VHL Bot 2,760]

Milo Fox (Tate) has announced their retirement.

[mattyIceman 1,039]

Y tho

[Tate 328]

On 2/14/2024 at 6:16 AM, mattyIceman said:

Y tho

 

So, when I got rejected for my scouting report, they were talking about banning me, and suggested I should plead my case with Fong. Life's too short, you know? I've got better things to do than go through that ordeal again. This hobby is supposed to be fun, and honestly, if I were to chat with Fong on Discord right now, he'd probably be pleasant. But here's the thing: I don't trust him to make a decision that won't mess up my life. I mean, let's focus on the word 'affect' here, because Fong is partly why I left in the first place. Sure, he's a nice guy, easy to talk to, smart, and funny. Those are all great qualities, but after our clash over his Mod Mentality, I just couldn't wrap my head around why the league kept him around. Maybe that sounds a bit dramatic, but if you go back and really digest what he said and then look at the impact he and his crew have had since the COC revision in Nov 2021, you might see where I'm coming from. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, right? To be fair, things did improve after I left (which is why I felt okay about coming back), but the thought of dealing with Fong's whims again? Nah, not for me. I'm not up for that.

 

So, after I got the rejection, I started writing a response to the league in the comments of my scouting report. But before I could finish, I noticed Fong had left a comment (the first one), and I wondered what it could be. I thought maybe the post had been locked for investigation, but nope, it was still open, and Fong's comment? Total sarcasm, taking a jab at me. For those curious, Fong would've known my PT was denied for AI. His comment praised my "originality," which is why I'm saying it was sarcastic. By the time he left that comment, my report was nearly a week old and buried under other posts. So, he specifically sought out my post just to drop that comment after finding out what happened. Fong isn't known for being active on the forum, so him leaving a comment like that was out of character, and it's pretty obvious he wasn't sincere. Given our history, context is key here. That comment told me everything I needed to know about how fair the process with him would be going forward. This is where the league falls short because, while Fong has his good points and is buddies with a lot of folks, he's just not suited for his role.

 

It's frustrating being told you didn't do something you know you did. So, while the updaters and all will insist AI wrote my report, I can't just accept that and move on. I was chatting with a friend in the league (who's equally awesome, by the way), and he pointed out parts of my report that seemed totally AI-generated, with the sentence structures and all. But the whole time, I'm thinking, "Nope, I wrote that paragraph." Sure, I use software at work to help with grammar and synonyms, but the words and ideas are mine. I was the one sitting there typing out those sentences, and I've been using that software for my whole time here, five years. After our chat, I started thinking, what if I hadn't retired and stuck around? I could stop using those tools when I create stuff, skip the spell check, but would that stop the paranoia when I submit? What if I get flagged again? What if it means dealing with someone like Fong? How much stress do I really need in my life? My scouting report came back as 97% AI-generated. That means I supposedly had almost nothing to do with it, aside from the title. When I read that, my mind was blown. I didn't know whether to laugh or what, but the person telling me was dead serious. And I should say, I respect both the people I dealt with on the updaters' side. The first person who flagged me (I know they've got nothing against me), and the second who denied me is a real asset to the league. But I don't want to rewrite something I put a lot of effort into. I had a blast writing my report and genuinely thought it was some of my best work. Next time I'm on a roll, is it gonna look like AI again? Will it test as AI? What if it's 98%?

 

To all the awesome folks here (including you), who've welcomed me and worked hard to make this place great - you all rock. If you ever wanna chat, hit me up on Discord or over at the SHL. I wish this league a bright and happy future, just don't forget to weed out the bad apples every now and then. Oh, and that nasty bush in the corner? It's killing the grass - get rid of it.

[Victor 10,536]

18 minutes ago, Tate said:

 

So, when I got rejected for my scouting report, they were talking about banning me, and suggested I should plead my case with Fong. Life's too short, you know? I've got better things to do than go through that ordeal again. This hobby is supposed to be fun, and honestly, if I were to chat with Fong on Discord right now, he'd probably be pleasant. But here's the thing: I don't trust him to make a decision that won't mess up my life. I mean, let's focus on the word 'affect' here, because Fong is partly why I left in the first place. Sure, he's a nice guy, easy to talk to, smart, and funny. Those are all great qualities, but after our clash over his Mod Mentality, I just couldn't wrap my head around why the league kept him around. Maybe that sounds a bit dramatic, but if you go back and really digest what he said and then look at the impact he and his crew have had since the COC revision in Nov 2021, you might see where I'm coming from. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, right? To be fair, things did improve after I left (which is why I felt okay about coming back), but the thought of dealing with Fong's whims again? Nah, not for me. I'm not up for that.

 

So, after I got the rejection, I started writing a response to the league in the comments of my scouting report. But before I could finish, I noticed Fong had left a comment (the first one), and I wondered what it could be. I thought maybe the post had been locked for investigation, but nope, it was still open, and Fong's comment? Total sarcasm, taking a jab at me. For those curious, Fong would've known my PT was denied for AI. His comment praised my "originality," which is why I'm saying it was sarcastic. By the time he left that comment, my report was nearly a week old and buried under other posts. So, he specifically sought out my post just to drop that comment after finding out what happened. Fong isn't known for being active on the forum, so him leaving a comment like that was out of character, and it's pretty obvious he wasn't sincere. Given our history, context is key here. That comment told me everything I needed to know about how fair the process with him would be going forward. This is where the league falls short because, while Fong has his good points and is buddies with a lot of folks, he's just not suited for his role.

 

It's frustrating being told you didn't do something you know you did. So, while the updaters and all will insist AI wrote my report, I can't just accept that and move on. I was chatting with a friend in the league (who's equally awesome, by the way), and he pointed out parts of my report that seemed totally AI-generated, with the sentence structures and all. But the whole time, I'm thinking, "Nope, I wrote that paragraph." Sure, I use software at work to help with grammar and synonyms, but the words and ideas are mine. I was the one sitting there typing out those sentences, and I've been using that software for my whole time here, five years. After our chat, I started thinking, what if I hadn't retired and stuck around? I could stop using those tools when I create stuff, skip the spell check, but would that stop the paranoia when I submit? What if I get flagged again? What if it means dealing with someone like Fong? How much stress do I really need in my life? My scouting report came back as 97% AI-generated. That means I supposedly had almost nothing to do with it, aside from the title. When I read that, my mind was blown. I didn't know whether to laugh or what, but the person telling me was dead serious. And I should say, I respect both the people I dealt with on the updaters' side. The first person who flagged me (I know they've got nothing against me), and the second who denied me is a real asset to the league. But I don't want to rewrite something I put a lot of effort into. I had a blast writing my report and genuinely thought it was some of my best work. Next time I'm on a roll, is it gonna look like AI again? Will it test as AI? What if it's 98%?

 

To all the awesome folks here (including you), who've welcomed me and worked hard to make this place great - you all rock. If you ever wanna chat, hit me up on Discord or over at the SHL. I wish this league a bright and happy future, just don't forget to weed out the bad apples every now and then. Oh, and that nasty bush in the corner? It's killing the grass - get rid of it.

can someone run this through the AI checker

[mattyIceman 1,039]

13 hours ago, Tate said:

 

So, when I got rejected for my scouting report, they were talking about banning me, and suggested I should plead my case with Fong. Life's too short, you know? I've got better things to do than go through that ordeal again. This hobby is supposed to be fun, and honestly, if I were to chat with Fong on Discord right now, he'd probably be pleasant. But here's the thing: I don't trust him to make a decision that won't mess up my life. I mean, let's focus on the word 'affect' here, because Fong is partly why I left in the first place. Sure, he's a nice guy, easy to talk to, smart, and funny. Those are all great qualities, but after our clash over his Mod Mentality, I just couldn't wrap my head around why the league kept him around. Maybe that sounds a bit dramatic, but if you go back and really digest what he said and then look at the impact he and his crew have had since the COC revision in Nov 2021, you might see where I'm coming from. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, right? To be fair, things did improve after I left (which is why I felt okay about coming back), but the thought of dealing with Fong's whims again? Nah, not for me. I'm not up for that.

 

So, after I got the rejection, I started writing a response to the league in the comments of my scouting report. But before I could finish, I noticed Fong had left a comment (the first one), and I wondered what it could be. I thought maybe the post had been locked for investigation, but nope, it was still open, and Fong's comment? Total sarcasm, taking a jab at me. For those curious, Fong would've known my PT was denied for AI. His comment praised my "originality," which is why I'm saying it was sarcastic. By the time he left that comment, my report was nearly a week old and buried under other posts. So, he specifically sought out my post just to drop that comment after finding out what happened. Fong isn't known for being active on the forum, so him leaving a comment like that was out of character, and it's pretty obvious he wasn't sincere. Given our history, context is key here. That comment told me everything I needed to know about how fair the process with him would be going forward. This is where the league falls short because, while Fong has his good points and is buddies with a lot of folks, he's just not suited for his role.

 

It's frustrating being told you didn't do something you know you did. So, while the updaters and all will insist AI wrote my report, I can't just accept that and move on. I was chatting with a friend in the league (who's equally awesome, by the way), and he pointed out parts of my report that seemed totally AI-generated, with the sentence structures and all. But the whole time, I'm thinking, "Nope, I wrote that paragraph." Sure, I use software at work to help with grammar and synonyms, but the words and ideas are mine. I was the one sitting there typing out those sentences, and I've been using that software for my whole time here, five years. After our chat, I started thinking, what if I hadn't retired and stuck around? I could stop using those tools when I create stuff, skip the spell check, but would that stop the paranoia when I submit? What if I get flagged again? What if it means dealing with someone like Fong? How much stress do I really need in my life? My scouting report came back as 97% AI-generated. That means I supposedly had almost nothing to do with it, aside from the title. When I read that, my mind was blown. I didn't know whether to laugh or what, but the person telling me was dead serious. And I should say, I respect both the people I dealt with on the updaters' side. The first person who flagged me (I know they've got nothing against me), and the second who denied me is a real asset to the league. But I don't want to rewrite something I put a lot of effort into. I had a blast writing my report and genuinely thought it was some of my best work. Next time I'm on a roll, is it gonna look like AI again? Will it test as AI? What if it's 98%?

 

To all the awesome folks here (including you), who've welcomed me and worked hard to make this place great - you all rock. If you ever wanna chat, hit me up on Discord or over at the SHL. I wish this league a bright and happy future, just don't forget to weed out the bad apples every now and then. Oh, and that nasty bush in the corner? It's killing the grass - get rid of it.

 

Completely get you, man.  I get that there's context and I have no real clue what it is), and seems like anything can get flagged for AI.  Well, that's why I don't type anymore.  I also get that even if this slid through whatever seriousness or sarcasm, you (and me both) dislike having anything hanging over our heads or being looked over our shoulders... this is supposed to be fun and engaging.  I like earning just enough but I ain't typing reports or articles anymore, maybe that works for just me.

 

I will hit you up someway soon, I have before, because we've been through this before.  Until then, take care of the family and look after yourself.  Btw, your podcast back in the day was good.

[Spartan 3,997]

19 hours ago, Tate said:

So, when I got rejected for my scouting report, they were talking about banning me, and suggested I should plead my case with Fong.

Everything else in here is your opinion, which you're allowed to have and is fine. Not going to push back on anything else other than this. There would never have been a league ban involved, only a TPE ban at most which is fairly standard for people caught using AI for their tasks. The punishment thread has a few of the recent ones to show that a TPE ban is standard there. If you pushed back with V.2, the head of PT who has been given jurisdiction on final say on tasks and punishments for breaking task rules, it would go to the mod team, aka Fong. Personally if you had proof of not using AI or some other sort of rebuttal, I don't see how V.2 wouldn't have taken it unless he simply disagreed with you.

 

19 hours ago, Tate said:

Sure, I use software at work to help with grammar and synonyms, but the words and ideas are mine. I was the one sitting there typing out those sentences, and I've been using that software for my whole time here, five years.

Listen, detecting AI is never going to be definitive here - we're not going to get every decision right and we generally try to give people a window to explain to an Updater. That's why we have the denial PMs and are on Discord to chat as well. However, you even claim to use software that changes your sentences and words. That's stuff that might get triggered for AI input here, and seemingly did trigger one of the primary sites Updaters use, including a few others that I ran your original submission through. Others were not as high percentage, some were very low. I just don't know why these comments or proof wasn't brought up with whichever Updater you spoke with, or V.2 before it would ever need to get to mod appeal. At the least, I never saw any follow up comments from you passed on in the Updater chat.

 

5 hours ago, mattyIceman said:

I get that there's context and I have no real clue what it is), and seems like anything can get flagged for AI.

Anything that goes through AI checkers and comes off as AI generated, yes. We've tossed in old staff member media spots and vhl.coms to see what the false positive rate is, and we feel fairly comfortable about avoiding false positives. However, we can't say the same for pieces that go through sites like Grammarly and get essentially rewritten. For graphics we usually ask to see layers if we're not comfortable with originality. Maybe media spot users will have to save their pre-Grammarly or whatever write-ups if they're going to go through those avenues that might get flagged. That way updaters can see that there was original content prior to the modification by the editing site. But again, this would only get triggered if your work contains elements of AI, which most completely original content doesn't get flagged for.

 

5 hours ago, mattyIceman said:

you (and me both) dislike having anything hanging over our heads or being looked over our shoulders... this is supposed to be fun and engaging

Dunno what this means, but surely we're not advocating for Updaters not to be checking tasks for compliance with guidelines right? We're not comparing Updaters to Big Brother? Don't think the rules for content are that harsh either. Hit the word count and keep it original. We don't want to have to look at every task through a fine tooth comb, but as we see submissions with AI elements pop up more frequently, its the community itself that forces the league to keep a closer eye out for infractions.

[Daniel Janser 1,982]

27 minutes ago, Spartan said:

Personally if you had proof of not using AI or some other sort of rebuttal, I don't see how V.2 wouldn't have taken it unless he simply disagreed with you.

How do you prove a negative though? This is why in western countries 'innocent until proven guilty' is applied. Just to be clear, I am all for filtering out the bad apples and that some scrutiny from the updaters etc is absolutely valid. I am also aware that this is not a court of law or anything. All I wish to point out is, that it is difficult to prove a negative. I for example write my articles directly into the forum without using Word or any other software (except wordcounter). If one of my articles were to be flagged as AI generated, how would I prove that it wasn't? Would I need to record me writing the article? That would be two hours of very tedious video footage observing me rearranging sentences and so on and certainly a pain in the backside for whoever has to review it. And would that even be enough? After all, I could have the AI generated text on one monitor (or on my laptop) and record the other one where I retype said article (not trying to give ideas here to the part of the community who tries to get TPE for AI created content).  

[Spartan 3,997]

2 minutes ago, Daniel Janser said:

How do you prove a negative though? This is why in western countries 'innocent until proven guilty' is applied. Just to be clear, I am all for filtering out the bad apples and that some scrutiny from the updaters etc is absolutely valid. I am also aware that this is not a court of law or anything. All I wish to point out is, that it is difficult to prove a negative. I for example write my articles directly into the forum without using Word or any other software (except wordcounter). If one of my articles were to be flagged as AI generated, how would I prove that it wasn't? Would I need to record me writing the article? That would be two hours of very tedious video footage observing me rearranging sentences and so on and certainly a pain in the backside for whoever has to review it. And would that even be enough? After all, I could have the AI generated text on one monitor (or on my laptop) and record the other one where I retype said article (not trying to give ideas here to the part of the community who tries to get TPE for AI created content).  

My first suggestion would be to bring up previously written articles that somewhat mirror the writing style he claims to have been consistent with the denied article. Second might be to go back to Grammerly or whatever tool he uses since sometimes I think they leave a history of recent pieces reviewed?

 

As you said it's not a court of law, we don't have that sort of "innocent until proven guilty" with what you claim for TPE. If something looks off and updaters agree, then the user can find some way to communicate with us and explain how our analysis of their work is wrong and can provide more details. 

[Hogan 1,332]

14 hours ago, Daniel Janser said:

How do you prove a negative though? This is why in western countries 'innocent until proven guilty' is applied. Just to be clear, I am all for filtering out the bad apples and that some scrutiny from the updaters etc is absolutely valid. I am also aware that this is not a court of law or anything. All I wish to point out is, that it is difficult to prove a negative. I for example write my articles directly into the forum without using Word or any other software (except wordcounter). If one of my articles were to be flagged as AI generated, how would I prove that it wasn't? Would I need to record me writing the article? That would be two hours of very tedious video footage observing me rearranging sentences and so on and certainly a pain in the backside for whoever has to review it. And would that even be enough? After all, I could have the AI generated text on one monitor (or on my laptop) and record the other one where I retype said article (not trying to give ideas here to the part of the community who tries to get TPE for AI created content).  

Janser you need to stop writing articles on the forum you are going to accidently delete them

[Daniel Janser 1,982]

6 hours ago, Hogan said:

Janser you need to stop writing articles on the forum you are going to accidently delete them

It happened before  thanks for the tip though appreciate it

[Tate 328]

On 2/18/2024 at 2:27 AM, Spartan said:

Everything else in here is your opinion, which you're allowed to have and is fine. Not going to push back on anything else other than this. There would never have been a league ban involved, only a TPE ban at most which is fairly standard for people caught using AI for their tasks. The punishment thread has a few of the recent ones to show that a TPE ban is standard there. If you pushed back with V.2, the head of PT who has been given jurisdiction on final say on tasks and punishments for breaking task rules, it would go to the mod team, aka Fong. Personally if you had proof of not using AI or some other sort of rebuttal, I don't see how V.2 wouldn't have taken it unless he simply disagreed with you.

 

We never talked about producing proof as v.2 stated that 97% did not warrant any further discussion from them and that my next stop on the you're in trouble train would be Fong. I decided to jump off at that point.

 

Also, when I wrote about the possibility of being banned in my response above, I meant a PT ban. A ban is a ban to me - not that it matters in the grand scheme of things but the threat of the ban was a stark reminder that the road to discipline at the VHL ends, for me, at a cold place in hell. 

 

 

On 2/18/2024 at 2:27 AM, Spartan said:

Listen, detecting AI is never going to be definitive here - we're not going to get every decision right and we generally try to give people a window to explain to an Updater. That's why we have the denial PMs and are on Discord to chat as well. However, you even claim to use software that changes your sentences and words. That's stuff that might get triggered for AI input here, and seemingly did trigger one of the primary sites Updaters use, including a few others that I ran your original submission through. Others were not as high percentage, some were very low. I just don't know why these comments or proof wasn't brought up with whichever Updater you spoke with, or V.2 before it would ever need to get to mod appeal. At the least, I never saw any follow up comments from you passed on in the Updater chat.

 

 

See above response but here is the timeline of what happened:

 

1. I noticed my report lay dormant and reached out to my updater to ask why

2. I got an initial response from the first updater that I had been flagged, and it upset me, so when I reached out to v.2 I was all like, "Get back to me asap because this is BS. This is a good way to alienate a member, blah blah blah." (paraphrasing)

3. So, when v.2 did got back to me they were all like, "You tested 97%, so yeah, that's enough proof for me. You can talk to Fong if you want but PT Ban..."

 

And as soon as I read that I was all like - 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You're a good man, Spartan, take care!