My Case for Wozniak As MVP

[Mike 708]

There have been a lot of self promotion lately and since Wozniak hasn't yet won a single award till this point in his career, he won't likely make the Hall of Fame, and insert other negatives for his career also I shall plead my case.  I won't vote for myself this season because the voting is going to be close and I don't want to ultimately cast the deciding vote if it would be for me.

 

MVP = Most Valuable Player and as defined by Google web definitions - The player judged to be the most important to the sport.  Wikipedia says it is an honor typically bestowed upon the best-performing player or players on a specific team. 

 

Many in the VHL interpret this as the player who is most valuable to a team's success.  Meaning If everyone on the team is great but another good team has just one stellar player he should win the award instead.  I feel that is a valid argument but if one player on a team filled with other great players can differentiate himself enough I feel that makes a just cause for MVP.  Which I feel Wozniak did by winning so many different categories.

 

1)Goals - 72

2)Assists - 82

1)Centers - 42 more points than next closest player

1) Points - 17 more points than closest player 41 more than next closest team

1) Points per 20 - 1.40 (excluding the 1 CPU player QUE LW2)

Tied 2) Shooting% - 12.57%

1) Face-Off% - 66.18%

1) +/- +75 Might I add for this there are 3 QUE players after Wozniak and only 2 other Calgary on the top 10.

1)PPG - 16

2)GWG - 13

 

All of this was accomplished while taking the 2nd most hits in the league at 313 so while under continual harassment able to accomplish so much.  Had the margins for other top forwards on other teams been closer then I feel you can make the argument valid for those other forwards.  Wozniak also had nearly 200 hits when he is not even meant to be a two-way forward.  As for my case vs. any goalie in the league.

 

If we think back to last season with Remy LeBeau who played absolutely lights out last season better than any goalie in Season 34 or any goalie this season.  His team the Toronto Legion didn't even make the playoffs.  So if we have a goalie play above all other goalies a team still could miss the playoffs.  Where as a good offense it doesn't really matter if the goalie is mediocre.  Rock Star and NYA G had save percentages of 0.916 and 0.910 but they were the worst teams in the league.  Davos made the playoffs with Moher who had the lowest save percentage among starting goalies with a 0.904.

[sherifflobo 137]

Scrub

[Devise 4,475]

Alright not to rain on your parade although apparently that is what I do, I have some factual numbers/stuff to discuss regarding Wozniak as MVP.

 

I'll start out by saying I think Wozniak shouldn't be MVP. That was made known on my Pajodcast but it isn't anything personal I just think it is about more than just "you being on a great team with tons of people who played well." I think has more to do with the fact that Wozniaks stats were inflated by virtue of him playing amazing against teams that Calgary was going to beat anyway. If I saw evidence that Wozniak was the reason his team won so many games, I'd agree. It isn't anything personal either. I think you had a great season, one of the best in a long while and should handily win the Slobo for Most Outstanding Player. But here is my argument.

 

Wozniak had a great season. 154 Points, 72 goals. Hard to argue with those kind of numbers right? Wrong. MVP isn't about just numbers. For the sake of my argument I'm going to look at Wozniaks performances coupled with how well the team did (wins/losses) against the two worst, and two best teams in the league. From a points and wins stand point Helsinki/Quebec are the two best teams in the league and Riga/New York are the two worst. 

 

In 16 games against New York and Riga Calgary won 16 times. Wozniaks performance in those games? 28 goals 27 Assists for 55 Points. That is SUPER HIGH. A third of your total points came against the two worst teams in the league including almost 30 of your 72 goals. Great numbers? Sure. But with the roster Calgary had, it didn't matter WHO on their team was getting the points against New York and Riga. The chances that Calgary wasn't going to go 16-0 against those two teams was very unlikely. Those are winning games REGARDLESS of individual performance, even if yours was amazing.

 

In 16 games against Quebec and Helsinki Calgary won 5 games, lost in regulation 9 times and lost in OT twice. Not exactly glowing numbers. Wozniak was still solid in those 16 games posting 14 goals and 12 assists for 26 points. But those numbers don't jump out to you as "awe dropping." They are good, but even his good numbers couldn't get his team a winning percentage against the two toughest teams in the league. MVP's win the games for their teams that most think they are going to lose. Carry their team through slumps, take their team to wins that seem unlikely. 

 

The MVP vote is likely to be tough this year but as I said in the Pajodcast and I say it again here...I see one clear cut MVP this season despite many seeing it as tough. Tuomas Tukio. Helsinki had the least offense of all the playoff teams but one. They scored less goals than Toronto, Quebec, Calgary and Cologne. Only Davos scored less than them of playoff teams. Yet they gave up the last amount of goals against. Tukio doesn't have the save percentage that screams MVP, but again it isn't all just about base stats. Helsinki had their back up playing Seattle, meaning Tukio was playing against Riga and New York. Thus his save percentage took a hit from giving up the odd 1 or 2 goal on limited shot totals. At the end of the day Tukio won games against the best teams in the league for his team.

 

Against the four teams that scored more than them, that being Que, Col, Cal, Tor Helsinki went 23-8-1. They barely outscored these teams on an individual bases even being as close to one goal apart or in some cases like against the Legion they gave up more goals than they scored. Ultimately they scored 84 goals while allowing 69 goals against those teams in 32 games combined. That is roughly an average of 2.15 goals against per game...against the TOUGHEST and higher scoring teams in the league! While only scoring an average of 2.65 goals per game. All while Tukio was playing. The fact is in most of the season series save for Calgary, where Tukio gave up 24 goals in 8 games...all of them were really tight and he gave up nothing. 11 Goals against Cologne in 8 games with 17 against Toronto and Quebec. It isn't like he was getting goal support in all of those season series as well. Only 22 goals scored against Cologne, 13 against Toronto and 16 against Quebec. They were outscored in the season series in two of those...yet managed to come away with a winning or even record. All because of Tukio. Tough games are on the line? He finds a way to win and against the highest scoring and other top teams in the league he made sure his team had a glowing win percentage. 

Edited December 2, 2013 by Devise22

[sherifflobo 137]

Devise's TL;DR post: Miles Larsson is the true MVP.

[Guest]

The only thing I can say about Devise's post is that the goal support thing was Higgins doing not the sim and his teams doing. He kind of set that up for his player

[Squinty 116]

I saw the first paragraph of Devise's post, scrolled down, and laughed.

#devisepost #goryan

[sterling 1,990]

Yes, Devise's argument hardly makes sense considering Helsinki were who we thought they were. If Tukio was actually that important, his stats would be a lot better. Calgary placed much higher than they should have in the standings and beat a better Toronto team in round one.

[Devise 4,475]

Yes, Devise's argument hardly makes sense considering Helsinki were who we thought they were. If Tukio was actually that important, his stats would be a lot better. Calgary placed much higher than they should have in the standings and beat a better Toronto team in round one.

 

Playoffs are irrelevant for regular season MVP. I don't see how Tukio's stats would be better if he was so good. He beat the toughest teams in the league during the regular season with very little goal support from his team during that time. Go watch him give up goals against Riga and Davos and you see why his stats aren't as high. Calgary didn't place higher than they should have. Toronto is still very young, and star power LEADS teams in this league. Calgary has a average and sometimes terrible record against the tougher teams in the league. Look at Calgarys roster, of course they dominated Seattle, Riga, New York, and Vasteras. Quebec and Helsinki placed ahead of Calgary because they were able to play better against tougher teams. Ultimately though I don't see much of an argument how Tukio didn't carry his team in tough situations. I will give Kendrick the point, as Chris mentioned Higgins had the lines set to 2-2-1 for the majority of the season. Which would explain his teams low goal scoring. But even still, he stopped pucks against the teams that scored tons this year. That matters. 

[sterling 1,990]

Playoffs are irrelevant for regular season MVP. I don't see how Tukio's stats would be better if he was so good. He beat the toughest teams in the league during the regular season with very little goal support from his team during that time. Go watch him give up goals against Riga and Davos and you see why his stats aren't as high. Calgary didn't place higher than they should have. Toronto is still very young, and star power LEADS teams in this league. Calgary has a average and sometimes terrible record against the tougher teams in the league. Look at Calgarys roster, of course they dominated Seattle, Riga, New York, and Vasteras. Quebec and Helsinki placed ahead of Calgary because they were able to play better against tougher teams. Ultimately though I don't see much of an argument how Tukio didn't carry his team in tough situations. I will give Kendrick the point, as Chris mentioned Higgins had the lines set to 2-2-1 for the majority of the season. Which would explain his teams low goal scoring. But even still, he stopped pucks against the teams that scored tons this year. That matters. 

 

Yes, Calgary did finish a lot higher than they should have. Don't be silly. Calgary has five forwards and 2 defenseman, most of whom are depreciated 7th/8th year veterans. Your argument is invalid. Helsinki finished 4-4 against both Toronto and Quebec. They finished 6-1 against a much weaker Calgary team (9 goal differential). They finished 8-0 versus Cologne (Cologne did poorly against all Quebec, Calgary and Helsinki). Statistically speaking though, they didn't play any better against 'good teams,' all the good teams split their matches against one another pretty evenly. That's why the top 3-4 teams are all comparable in terms of points. 

[sterling 1,990]

The key is that his goalie stats don't set him apart from the rest of the goalies while Wozniak's stats do separate him from the rest of the forwards. 26 points against the top two teams is pretty dam good, especially considering your argument that the top two teams are defensive.

[sterling 1,990]

Woziak is the clear MVP, your argument is terrible. Look at the stats! 154 points compared to the 137 of his linemate and 113 of the next closest non teammate.

 

The fact of the matter is that both Helsinki and Quebec are the top teams. Calgary managed their way in there when they shouldn't have. Look at the rosters.

[Devise 4,475]

I don't see how Calgary having 5 forwards and 2 D at all compares to their success. Teams with no depth and tons of star power forwards have dominated the league time and time again. The Wranglers the year before barely finished out of first in the conference and had 106 points despite only having 5 forwards and 2 D. Marcellin that year was also top 3 in assists and Ryback/Chershenko dominated. They even had a weaker goalie in Satan. The year before New York had barely any real depth, mostly 200 TPE and under players on D basically just running on Sullivan, Labatte and 5 forwards...finished tops in the NA conference again with a roster running on star power. I could keep going...as it happens almost every season. A team with 4 or 5 forwards and 2-3 D but it has some of the highest TPE players in the league does well. 

 

Sterling Wozniak had a third of his points against the two worst teams in the league in Riga/NY. How does that mean "MVP"? How many times has the top point producer in the NHL won MVP? It RARELY happens. It's about the ACTUAL MVP not who produced the most. Wonziak deserves all the credit for top goals, top assists, top points, most outstanding player...I will not deny that. But he isn't the only reason his team did as good as it did. The star power plays on Calgary played well and it carried them through teams in the league, most notably the weaker teams. They struggled against the tougher teams, and in those performances he didn't play nearly as good. 

Edited December 3, 2013 by Devise22

[Smarch 2,948]

[Guest]

Playoffs are irrelevant for regular season MVP. I don't see how Tukio's stats would be better if he was so good. He beat the toughest teams in the league during the regular season with very little goal support from his team during that time. Go watch him give up goals against Riga and Davos and you see why his stats aren't as high. Calgary didn't place higher than they should have. Toronto is still very young, and star power LEADS teams in this league. Calgary has a average and sometimes terrible record against the tougher teams in the league. Look at Calgarys roster, of course they dominated Seattle, Riga, New York, and Vasteras. Quebec and Helsinki placed ahead of Calgary because they were able to play better against tougher teams. Ultimately though I don't see much of an argument how Tukio didn't carry his team in tough situations. I will give Kendrick the point, as Chris mentioned Higgins had the lines set to 2-2-1 for the majority of the season. Which would explain his teams low goal scoring. But even still, he stopped pucks against the teams that scored tons this year. That matters. 

Well in thats case I'm more valuable haha. I scored against big teams

[Advantage 2,770]

Yes, Devise's argument hardly makes sense considering Helsinki were who we thought they were. If Tukio was actually that important, his stats would be a lot better. Calgary placed much higher than they should have in the standings and beat a better Toronto team in round one.

Since when does that matter for regular season awards?

[Mike 708]

My argument back to you Devise is this you said basically I got 1/3 of my good stats against bad teams which kind of discredits me to some degree I can accept that.  However if your pro Tukio argument says his stats would be better if he had played better against the fluke bad teams that kind of going against your first argument against me.  If we can't discredit Tukio's bad games against bad teams you can't discredit my good games against bad teams.  The games that happened are the games that happened just like you can't count playoff stats for regular season you can't say what if with stats for the games that did happen.

 

I would also say if my only good stats were 154 points which is the main argument you are making then yes that is also more of a debatable argument.  The fact of the matter is though I was first in the league in Faceoff%, +/-, and many other stats as well as being 2nd in a couple.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Mike

[Guest]

In my opinion Vega should win MVP

[Mike 708]

Rock Star had 0.916 on Riga and face a bajillion more shots than the next closest goalie.  Despite us scoring barely over a goal per game we beat Helsinki twice and managed 12 points on the season.

[sterling 1,990]

You mentioned two examples, the NY one doesnt count. I can think of a lot more teams with full rosters that won and were good. The playoff comment just points out that Calgary isnt that good. Look at the shot totals. Labatte won the series against a better team.

[sterling 1,990]

Your argument would actually make some sense if his save % was .935. Look at Labatte's MVP season. Tukio isnt close.

[Higgins 3,617]

Your arguments are just as weak

Look at Labattes MVP? Ok but that was a different season :/

Helsinki is who we thought they were? Cool so build a decent team and everyone expects you to win, but never get credit because that's "what Helsinki is supposed to do"

Calgary sucks? Ok... not at all, the old players have tons of TPE and banked for depreciation. Calgary has 2 D? Ok Helsinki has 3 and one is a borderline VHLMer while Calgary has likely top D winner. Most top teams run 2-3 D now.

Calgary won a playoff series? How does that affect any regular season awards...

In short: You jellin and Calgary suxz soo much.

[Devise 4,475]

Your argument would actually make some sense if his save % was .935. Look at Labatte's MVP season. Tukio isnt close.

 

How does him letting in a goals against weak teams on low shot totals but his team still winning the games, versus him winning the games his team is actually going to have a challenge to win with good stats have anything to do with his overall save percentage? Save percentage is based on ALL games a player plays. Normally that wouldn't matter, but Higgins has a history of playing his own player against weaker teams. It isn't like they lose tons of those games....his stats just get nullified due to that. Hence why his goals against average is still so low despite his weaker save percentage. 

 

The fact is, Calgary Helsinki Quebec Toronto Cologne should or be expected to go 16-0 against New York and Riga in the season series. They have no rosters and the others are playoff competing teams. Stats compiled during those games are irrelevant. Why? Because the teams are so far apart that there is no "MVP' of those games. The better team is going to win those games 9/10 because the weaker teams there have ZERO real roster players. Ergo when you don't look at any performance against the two weakest teams in the league, since it is meaningless in regards to MVP....Wozniak played good against the stronger teams. But his team didn't have a winning percentage. Ergo, Wozniak playing good DOES NOT lead to Calgary winning. He needs support. Tukio won games against the top teams in the league without goal scoring support. He was the sole reason his team won several of those games. His team had a winning percentage overall against all the teams that scored more than them, and tied the season series across with teams like Quebec and Toronto despite not scoring as much goals as them. Tukio...is the reason for that. Tukio...won his team games when it wasn't a sure thing. I don't see how that isn't even a fact. I mean look at the season series between Helsinki and Toronto, or Quebec, or Cologne....Tukio was outstanding. 

 

I don't see why end season stats as the only base have to do with MVP at all. It's about what those stats mean and what it translates to. Ovechkin didn't win MVP in the league when he had 4 20 goal scorers on his team. But nobody else scores and he leads the league in goals scored and scores the majority of his teams goals in games they win? Oh look and MVP award. Again, it's because those stats translate into wins that would otherwise be losses. Unlike the NHL in the VHL it is nearly impossible for teams with even half a competent roster or some top star players to lose to the truly weak teams in the league. Every season we seem to have a few teams who only win like 5-10 games a season. Wins against them are essentially assured for playoff teams, meaning it doesn't matter how well anyone does against them individually for an MVP vote....

[sterling 1,990]

Im not reading your long posts. Have you ever heard of being efficient with what you write. The fact remains that Tukio had a good team, had an above average season (barely), but his team would have still been good with any of the other league average goalies. Meanwhile, Wozniak led the league is points, plus/minus and faceoffs, while also leading a far worse team to nearly as many points in the standings.

Toronto outplayed Calgary in the first round, Quebec has outplayed Calgary and so would Helsinki if it were to happen, which it wont. Again, if Tukio was the only reason for Helsinkis success your argument would make sense. Since he had the best roster in the league and finished in second, your argument doesnt make sense.

[sterling 1,990]

You are saying look at the stats, well obviously. Look at Wozniak's contributions and his Calgary's place in the standings. He is one big reason why an average team played so well.

[sterling 1,990]

Your star power argument is so bunk, its not even funny. Calgary has two 80 plus overall players to Helsinki's 4! Helsinki's goals allowed are 141, Toronto's are 143, Calgary's 150. Really no difference. Helsinki could have scored a lot more than they did, they have the star power and a much better defence.