Victor

That'll be an interesting aspect but not a major issue in actually setting up the ground rules. GMs and everyone will adapt.

Yeah which is why I've left that as a discussion point. I am personally quite fine with just FA restrictions and everything else can be left to the power of commish veto. Like the trading-back-player-within-2-seasons rule I mentioned in the other thread. Given that S45 draft took place in the current VHL environment, even staggering second players to avoid a super draft doesn't mean we will avoid top-heavy drafts with one team owning a bunch of picks. The Helsinki scenario will remain just as plausible, and IMO moreso in the new VHL. Another few things about FA restrictions, which you so oppose. 1. I think picking from 9 teams (at least, with expansion a very real possibility) is more than enough. If you're going to FA for the purposes of trying something new, I don't see why you would want to sign for your other player's team. If you're going to FA to sign for your other player's team well, fuck you. 2. I feel like you're underplaying the risk here anyway. S51 draftee can hit FA in S54. S51 draftee can also have a S54 second player according to the 3-season restriction. So S51 draftee can sign with S54 draftee's team and be on the same team for 5 seasons, not 1 or 2.

First off, handy tip time! If you highlight some text in a post, a "Quote this" button comes up so you can quote only the part of the post you need! Like so... whoa whoa whoa when did I say anything different? All I said was we should crack down on forcing your way onto your other player's team. Apart from that... The only thing I mentioned in terms of GMs was that will anyone have trust issues if GMs trade for themselves? i.e. if they want their 2nd player and trade for them, do we care if someone potentially could lower that player's market value? i.e. GM 1 tell GM 2 that GM 1 wants to trade for GM 1's second player who is on GM 2's team. GM 1 also says that GM 2 should trade him GM 1's second player for a discount price or GM 1 will simply retire his second player. Also, to clarify, no restrictions on two GM players on teams have been proposed. I said, one GM player HAS to be on the GM's team. Not ONLY one GM player has to be on the GM's team.

I don't know where you're getting that from after reading mine or Higgins' posts. I explicitly said get to at least 36mil and evaluate, with the very real possibility of then going up to 40. Higgins said to evaluate with each batch of new draftees and increase by 2mil at each stage. We can't just take the leap to 40mil because you are thinking from the selfish perspective as GM of a team at the cap right now. Of course you want more space and you will get some - but not so much that you'll get to get all the players you want at the expense of a Stockholm or Davos. Look at it this way - you're at 32mil with 10 actives, so 36mil will give you enough room for 11 actives, certainly while second players are on rookie contracts. By the time they hit prime contracts, the cap will likely be 40mil. which brings me to... Your failure to grasp this boggles my mind. The balance of the salary cap is of limited importance here. See here, with a 32 mil cap, Helsinki was able to "draft" Koponen, Hamilton, and Clegane, and trade for O'Malley, Klose, and Stropko. So even in the current VHL cap world, a team can draft three stud prospects and get those three stud prospects' veteran players - e.g. if Draper, Bentley, and Villeneuve were still active at the time. With an increased cap - and the cap will have to increase - you get 6 great players and have room to trade for a shit ton more, plus maybe sign their doubles in FA. This doesn't take a huge stretch of the imagination - it literally could have happened if second players existed with no movement restrictions in S45. Super drafts are great but we don't want artificial super drafts. The VHL can quite naturally get super drafts already with the right mix of good first-gens and a few extra people recreating just ahead or just behind schedule. Whatever happens, second players will just raise the standard of drafts overall. But super drafts are not necessarily a good thing for the league. Say you're a rebuilding Team A and have a load of S52 picks. The S52 draft is announced to be a free-for-all start for second players so there's an influx of 30+ new players. You jizz yourself and build a cup winner in the easiest way known to man. But say you're a contending Team B without many S52 picks. In fact, this is your last shot but you'll only start rebuilding after the S52 draft and focus on S53-S55 picks. You just missed out on the greatest class in VHL history and we won't see another like it til S61. Your rebuild is fucked because you get the typical average-to-decent drafts where even with loads of picks you get 2-3 good prospects. The team that's run away with the S52 draftees combined with an increased salary cap means that Team B has no chance of catching Team A. It would be a completely different situation if S52 was a great draft just because. That's just the luck of the draw. But by artificially making it great, we are creating an extremely uneven playing field and sacrificing continued quality for 8 straight drafts for the sake of one huge megadraft. My slightly different suggestion would be that $20 donation rewards go towards both players. You can also donate another $10 per player (so another $20 in total) which are limited to just that one player. Just to clarify, I believe YEAH's suggestion is to calculate TPE in that specific season. So if it was implemented in S51 or whenever, the top 10 TPE earners of just S51 get first refusal. It would require to be tracked separately. Yeah I probably overthought that bit. As for carryover... Same as it is now IMO - you can use one player's carryover once, after they're retired. So all second players start at 30 TPE. When you have two players, if you get tired of having two and retire one without making another, the carryover of that retired player can be used whenever but only once. could you at least link the thread? I'm clearly in long post reply mood and feeling very liberal in general so maybe there's something which can be used from that.

Think it's time to submit some proper lines haha.

Glad we woke up in the end. Please help us von Karma.

KOPOrekt

Good to see Penalty Shot still means nothing #karnage

CGY G1 waddup.

Was gonna say NY playing with fire with that defence, then saw they got Digital. Still playing with fire with that defence.

Obviously he rates Helsinki's playoff chances in S50 higher then New York's. Shame that Davos has become the destination no one seems to want to go to as opposed to what it was before.

Second line last time, now top line's turn! Revenge against Brampton!

Woo first win! Great game second line @Tixe @riverriverriverriverriver @Quinn Shmyr

Sid the Kid

Trade deadline creation would mean those 10 players are in the VHLM first. So if S51 trade deadline opened up to second players, S52 would go up to 33mil, while S53 would be 34mil when the players actually come in.

I suppose. Approval if GMs unsure, veto if blatant circumvention. Kind of like the trading back players rule.

but why would the GM do that? Branching out from the don't-be-a-dick draft restriction, I think any blatant forcing of yourself on your own team should be cracked down on.

we can't go into this with the blind hope that no one will try to abuse the system. Honestly, the only restrictions here are no FA (and honestly, what saddo wants to to join an LR with them in it already?) and not being a dick at the draft. They're very simple but necessary to be in writing. Lottery sounds fun but YEAH's idea certainly rewards activity in that particular season which is cool and interactive.

Gotta recreate in time to make a second player imo.

We've had lots of great discussion in the other thread, and the OP there remains an excellent read if you want to find out/revisit the reasons why this is an awesome idea and the responses to the various possible criticisms. However! I have gone through the thread and compiled something of a loose rulebook for this proposal based largely on what's been discussed there and a bit of my own opinion. Behold... Second Player Proposal 1. Restrictions on draft years The two players must be at least 3 seasons apart. So in a nutshell, a S50 draftee will be able to create a S53 draftee but not S51 or S52. Two seasons is certainly too short a timeframe IMO, while four seasons is half a career - probably too much of a wait. 2. Two players on the same team I believe there was no opposition to my suggestion as follows: Draft Second player can be drafted to the team of the first player BUT NOT if the user forces other GMs to pass on him. Free Agency Under no circumstances can a user choose to sign with one of their players to the team of the other. Trades No trades which bypass the FA restriction above (i.e. sign and trade). Otherwise, free trade remains. 3. GM players Regardless of the above, I believe one GM player must be on the GM's team at all times. Or have their rights owned by the team like Travis Gowecny or Sven Wolf atm. Basically one GM player continued to adhere to current GM player rules. Likewise, you can not take over a team without at least one of your players on board (which should be easier than what it is now anyway). 4. Earning TPE I believe we have reached consensus on PTs/PT replacements: Each player earns TPE from: - 1 6 TPE Point Task OR welfare claim per week * - 1 VHL.com article OR 2 TPE radio per week - the bio and rookie profile relating to that player - awards relating to that player * both players can not claim welfare in the same week. 2 PTs or 1 PT and 1 welfare are the only allowed combinations. Also welfare claims will HAVE TO include player name for ease of updating. Each user earns TPE for both players from: - donations - jobs - any fantasy/trivia/predictions/etc. - top GM awards 5. Carryover You can use carryover from one player once, same as it is now. If you have a 1,000 and 600 TPE players, then retire the 1,000 one and move back to just one player, you can then claim carryover from the 1,000 TPE one for whenever you retire the 600 TPE player. For most cases it will just be a case of carryover from your last player since the above scenario is only possible if someone gets a second player and then decides to take a break from having two players. 6. Implementation Timeline: Cap initial second players at 10 or 15. Make a TPE tracker (or use/adapt @YEAH!stlemania's index) for the season of implementation, and the top 10/15 players who earned the most TPE in that particular season, get first dibs on second players. No initial expansion. It's not necessary. First goal should be 11 actives per 10 teams. The salary cap will have to increase but it should be a gradual increase. Numbers need to be crunched but given initially second players will be draftees, then cheap rookies, it could probably go up on an incremental basis. First season after proposal implemented: salary cap $33 million then $34 million, 35, etc etc. Maybe stop and look at how things are going at 36mil and if necessary go up to 40. Now we have structure, let us continue!

Wrong Clegane probably, his kryptonite is indeed little girls

That's it, only option now is to go down to the VHLM myself!

Damn so long ago now. Congrats!

Faux can't do it alone Helsinki!