Post Jardy Podcast VHLE Opinion

[nurx 908]

Hey guys I have just listened to @JardyB10 new podcast and have a massive change in my opinions. I have more of a thought that the VHLM is more of a new member guide. I think that we should be giving the newer members as much ice time as possible, so a change to the VHLM may be needed. I think that changing the VHLM to nearly a completely new member league may help. My idea comes from the fact that new members care a lot about VHLM stat. This means that if you are recreate player/ non-first-gen player you will play in the VHLM after you recreate but when the first draft occurs you will be ineligible to be drafted into the VHLM and play your season in the VHLE. This could mean that there will be more players in the VHLE and less in the VHLM, but the new members will likely be the stars in their teams. This rule would not apply to players who would be eligible for first gen things. 

[Gustav 6,112]

First off, I want to say that I think it's cool that you're bringing up an opinion that hasn't really been heard much--don't ever be afraid to do that!

 

Second, I dislike everything about this, and here's why (no offense). I've written up (and plan to write) walls of text elsewhere on how much I hate the VHLE in general, and how it's already being treated completely differently from what it was intended to be, but I'll keep that opinion out of this as much as possible because it's not super relevant.

 

We strive to be an inclusive community, right? In most senses of the word, in that context, you'd agree with me when I say that what that generally means is that we stand against racism, sexism, homophobia, all that bullshit that targets people who don't deserve it. Let's extend the definition a bit farther. No, I'm not saying that your idea is racist, sexist, homophobic, or even discriminatory--that would be ridiculous. It's not. But what happens to someone completely new who joins the community and gets herded off into a place that's entirely made up of other completely new people? 

 

You can argue that the new people band together, figure things out on their own, and help each other grow. That's happened many times before in the VHLM, some very recently. Keep in mind, though, that that's the ideal situation, and that the argument for it depends on the assumption that every situation will be an ideal one. Often, things fall apart--with everyone being new, everyone is also clueless (and believe me, I've been in enough classes where I, and everyone I knew, was clueless to know that that isn't fun). You can imagine how things go at that point.

 

Completely separate from that, and going back to the point I made about inclusivity: why is it ever a good idea to divide the member base over experience, especially when the people most affected by that division are new? We say we want to include everyone in our community, so why would we stick new people in a place where they're cut off from the rest of the community until they can prove they're good enough? That's some frat-house-ritual-type stuff right there. It's a valid point that the new people would see more ice time, but at some point someone is going to ask themselves, "why can't I play in the VHLE and learn from people who know what they're doing? I'm active (and probably have more TPE than many recreates if I'm active enough)!" There's no real answer to that, no real way to say that the VHLM is working to this type of person's benefit--and, even worse, it's a major turnoff for the most active first-gens in particular, who are really into the league and want to make it up as fast as they can. Of course, you as a first-gen yourself don't make this suggestion to say that you want first-gens to feel isolated from the rest of the community--but that's going to happen here, and I'm sure we'll see many new solid earners just like you suggesting that we just mix everyone together because they feel isolated. Point being: we cannot in good conscience claim to be inclusive if our system does not include in the community as a whole those who need it most.

 

I hope that makes sense, and I still appreciate that you brought this up! Just my own opinion on the topic.

[nurx 908]

5 minutes ago, GustavMattias said:

First off, I want to say that I think it's cool that you're bringing up an opinion that hasn't really been heard much--don't ever be afraid to do that!

 

Second, I dislike everything about this, and here's why (no offense). I've written up (and plan to write) walls of text elsewhere on how much I hate the VHLE in general, and how it's already being treated completely differently from what it was intended to be, but I'll keep that opinion out of this as much as possible because it's not super relevant.

 

We strive to be an inclusive community, right? In most senses of the word, in that context, you'd agree with me when I say that what that generally means is that we stand against racism, sexism, homophobia, all that bullshit that targets people who don't deserve it. Let's extend the definition a bit farther. No, I'm not saying that your idea is racist, sexist, homophobic, or even discriminatory--that would be ridiculous. It's not. But what happens to someone completely new who joins the community and gets herded off into a place that's entirely made up of other completely new people? 

 

You can argue that the new people band together, figure things out on their own, and help each other grow. That's happened many times before in the VHLM, some very recently. Keep in mind, though, that that's the ideal situation, and that the argument for it depends on the assumption that every situation will be an ideal one. Often, things fall apart--with everyone being new, everyone is also clueless (and believe me, I've been in enough classes where I, and everyone I knew, was clueless to know that that isn't fun). You can imagine how things go at that point.

 

Completely separate from that, and going back to the point I made about inclusivity: why is it ever a good idea to divide the member base over experience, especially when the people most affected by that division are new? We say we want to include everyone in our community, so why would we stick new people in a place where they're cut off from the rest of the community until they can prove they're good enough? That's some frat-house-ritual-type stuff right there. It's a valid point that the new people would see more ice time, but at some point someone is going to ask themselves, "why can't I play in the VHLE and learn from people who know what they're doing? I'm active (and probably have more TPE than many recreates if I'm active enough)!" There's no real answer to that, no real way to say that the VHLM is working to this type of person's benefit--and, even worse, it's a major turnoff for the most active first-gens in particular, who are really into the league and want to make it up as fast as they can. Of course, you as a first-gen yourself don't make this suggestion to say that you want first-gens to feel isolated from the rest of the community--but that's going to happen here, and I'm sure we'll see many new solid earners just like you suggesting that we just mix everyone together because they feel isolated. Point being: we cannot in good conscience claim to be inclusive if our system does not include in the community as a whole those who need it most.

 

I hope that makes sense, and I still appreciate that you brought this up! Just my own opinion on the topic.

I thought I would try and explain some things here. After the trade deadline you see many recreates so that would be some of the "teachers" from the older members. Also the job of a VHLM GM/AGM is to help the new members figure out the league. By that logic the AGM/GM should be there to help them figure out the league. You would see recreates in the league. Just not recreates at capped 200 TPE or near it. You would see a more balanced league. I see you're thought on the frat like idea, but you have to see it from another point of view. These players will play with recreates it just gives the new players time to figure out the league before the overwhelming horde of recreates show up after the trade deadline. It also will give new members more time on ice to see their stats go up. I do want to hear more of this argument because I am fascinated by your argument.

[Gustav 6,112]

22 minutes ago, nurx said:

I thought I would try and explain some things here. After the trade deadline you see many recreates so that would be some of the "teachers" from the older members. Also the job of a VHLM GM/AGM is to help the new members figure out the league. By that logic the AGM/GM should be there to help them figure out the league. You would see recreates in the league. Just not recreates at capped 200 TPE or near it. You would see a more balanced league. I see you're thought on the frat like idea, but you have to see it from another point of view. These players will play with recreates it just gives the new players time to figure out the league before the overwhelming horde of recreates show up after the trade deadline. It also will give new members more time on ice to see their stats go up. I do want to hear more of this argument because I am fascinated by your argument.

 

I missed the recreate part, admittedly. I thought you were saying that ALL recreates immediately go into the VHLE. So I can't disagree as strongly as I did, but I still disagree with it for many of the same reasons. From the start of the season up to the deadline, the VHLM would be almost entirely new people, correct? I'd say that I can apply my earlier opinion up to that point.

 

By the time recreates make it into the minors, most of the season has passed. And for most people, things have either gone very well or very poorly. Again, I know Philly is constantly brought up as an example of a place where this has gone well (and I'd guess that from your own experience and opinion that Miami was that for you too). Yes, the GM should be immensely helpful to the players--but the GM is only one connection with the rest of the league, when many exist and there are many positive experiences with more established people, and a much greater sense of belonging, that can be had with a little bit of integration. I know you're saying that this happens eventually, but the truth is that it isn't eventual belonging that keeps people around. It's immediate belonging. I was a VHLM GM myself (and generally recognized as a pretty solid one) for a bit, and I can tell you that there are a lot of impatient new people. If you don't get them in the community, feeling like they have a valuable place in it, right away, they're never going anywhere. Expecting someone to feel accepted based on one or two connections with people who have been around any longer simply isn't realistic, even if more can be made after a month or so. And yes, these things can happen with solid forum activity or joining the league server (which isn't for everyone), but that makes the mistake of assuming new people will just find a place in the community on their own. As an experienced member, you have to bring the community to them. It isn't a "build it and they will come" situation.

 

To address concerns about ice time, which I understand I haven't yet...remember last season when some teams were packed and others barely had any players? There's plenty of ice time to be had; it just isn't being used correctly. This means that recreates aren't even the problem--the system is! To fix that, take a look at the last section of this article if you've never read it or you've forgotten about it since I wrote it. Give players the chance to decide what they want from every team, right away! With no waiver signing in a situation they didn't want to be in, everyone is happy.

 

I'm almost convinced that the league is trained to hyperfixate on non-issues like "new members versus experienced members" so we don't try to do anything actually meaningful. We're all people!

[nurx 908]

5 minutes ago, GustavMattias said:

 

I missed the recreate part, admittedly. I thought you were saying that ALL recreates immediately go into the VHLE. So I can't disagree as strongly as I did, but I still disagree with it for many of the same reasons. From the start of the season up to the deadline, the VHLM would be almost entirely new people, correct? I'd say that I can apply my earlier opinion up to that point.

 

By the time recreates make it into the minors, most of the season has passed. And for most people, things have either gone very well or very poorly. Again, I know Philly is constantly brought up as an example of a place where this has gone well (and I'd guess that from your own experience and opinion that Miami was that for you too). Yes, the GM should be immensely helpful to the players--but the GM is only one connection with the rest of the league, when many exist and there are many positive experiences with more established people, and a much greater sense of belonging, that can be had with a little bit of integration. I know you're saying that this happens eventually, but the truth is that it isn't eventual belonging that keeps people around. It's immediate belonging. I was a VHLM GM myself (and generally recognized as a pretty solid one) for a bit, and I can tell you that there are a lot of impatient new people. If you don't get them in the community, feeling like they have a valuable place in it, right away, they're never going anywhere. Expecting someone to feel accepted based on one or two connections with people who have been around any longer simply isn't realistic, even if more can be made after a month or so. And yes, these things can happen with solid forum activity or joining the league server (which isn't for everyone), but that makes the mistake of assuming new people will just find a place in the community on their own. As an experienced member, you have to bring the community to them. It isn't a "build it and they will come" situation.

 

To address concerns about ice time, which I understand I haven't yet...remember last season when some teams were packed and others barely had any players? There's plenty of ice time to be had; it just isn't being used correctly. This means that recreates aren't even the problem--the system is! To fix that, take a look at the last section of this article if you've never read it or you've forgotten about it since I wrote it. Give players the chance to decide what they want from every team, right away! With no waiver signing in a situation they didn't want to be in, everyone is happy.

 

I'm almost convinced that the league is trained to hyperfixate on non-issues like "new members versus experienced members" so we don't try to do anything actually meaningful. We're all people!

1. Yes the league would be filled with new members, but some of those members would of been in the league for longer and may be able to be viewed as somewhat "veteran" players as opposed to the completely new players. I for example while I have had an account in the past I in reality have only been in the league for only about 4 months. This is not a very long time and it is important to realize that this time has given me a role where I am to be expected to help the newer members as an AGM of a VHLM team. While I did max earn I barely made it out of the VHLM this year so it is possible that players very similar to me would be in the VHLM for example @Collusion. I truly believe that he is playing a more of a "veteran" role on his team despite being in the league for a very similar amount of time as me. There are players and people who pick of the league quickly and would be there to help teach the newer members. 

2. Less connections is also true, and I understand that is a problem as I am struggling with that issue myself. I nearly entirely put myself into a bubble in the Marauders and haven't really felt like I really fit with any other team. I do believe that this could be solved if only GMs of other leagues would take only a little bit of time to just talk some in other team LRs. It doesn't need to be a lot but the only players I see talking at all in the Maruaders LR that aren't currently a Marauder are Big Phil, Minion, and ricer (I may be missing some). While it is not other peoples job to reach other and meet people in other teams locker rooms. It sure would be helpful to new members who may find it incredibly scary to talk in the incredibly fast moving channel that is general in the VHL discord. I truly think that this would be your strongest point, but I think the biggest problem with the lack of connections is the fact that there are so many VHL related discord servers. I currently am in six different VHL related discord server and three of them for teams I am directly related to. I don't know what we as a community can do to fix this but I think a start would be to start pushing members to join other teams LRs or at least attempt to bring team LRs into a central discord server. I don't know if this would be a VHLM discord server similar to the WJC discord server, but I would not be opposed to it.

3. Ice time. I again agree with you nearly 100%. I think the biggest problem in the league is that so many new members will only get like 10 minutes of ice time in a game and may thing "well this sucks" and get disinterested. This is the big problem that I think this change would help solve. In reality you are probably right that changing the system is the best way to fix this issue. In order to back up this idea I am extremely in favor of the idea of a VHLM waiver claim change where the teams with the lowest amount of members automatically get the new members. This would also be able to get the blue crew and all the recruitment staff juicy stats for which VHLM GM/AGMs are the best at player retention. 


 I am still really new so I don't think I have any real meaningful answers, but I really want to throw my ideas at the wall and see what everyone thinks because in reality fresh eyes often are the best eyes. I know this coming from a community that struggled for years with retention until one day when a junior NCO (lowest member of leadership) stated something that seemed really obvious but no one ever thought of. I know many of my ideas are probably crazy, but I truly believe that if everyone shared just one little idea in the end with a combination of small parts of everything we would form a system that works better than our current system.

[Daniel Janser 1,982]

I thought I chip in and give my two cents (since life is not complicated enough yet). I think one of the challenges in the VHLM is that it is supposed to be an development league. At least that is my understanding. It is a league to cater for 1st gen primarily. An entry level league to teach newcomers the ways of VHL and STHS, assist them, make them feel wanted and welcome, tell them about pressconferences, advise them on builds, how to earn TPE and so on. My opinion is that GM's in the VHLM should put their Ego into the closet and not to try at all cost to win the league. The VHLM is the bonding place for rookies, and we should focus on their needs and goals. Let's be honest here. If Gustav (I am choosing you as you are already part of the conversation) recreates his upteenth Tsujimoto, I know that no bonding is required (nor any assistance for that matter). Theoretically, if I end up with acquiring Gustav's player, be it via draft or FA, the best thing for the league would be to give him 3rd/4th line time or backup duties as the case may be. After all, Gustav has already had his swing at trophies and glory. But for a rookie it means the world if they can play top line minutes regardless of their TPE and/or weekly TPE influx. Which means in my opinion that they are more likely to stick around than if they sit in the passenger seat get 1-2 minutes icetime per match and watch a bunch of veterans and recreates do the heavy lifting.

 

I guess for most recreates, the VHLM is a necessary evil, to the ultimate goal to play in the VHL again as soon as possible. 

 

Don't get me wrong, veterans and recreates are very valuable in the locker room as well as on the ice. The former, because they can also give advice if the GM or AGM isn't around for any reason and the latter because they generally are regular earners and know more or less what to do with their build. I just think, they should not necessarily be constantly in the lime light. Let the 1st gens be the star of the show that is the VHLM.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Daniel Janser

[nurx 908]

2 minutes ago, Daniel Janser said:

I thought I chip in and give my two cents (since life is not complicated enough yet). I think one of the challenges in the VHLM is that it is supposed to be an development league. At least that is my understanding. It is a league to cater for 1st gen primarily. An entry level league to teach newcomers the ways of VHL and STHS, assist them, make them feel wanted and welcome, tell them about pressconferences, advise them on builds, how to earn TPE and so on. My opinion is that GM's in the VHLM should put their Ego into the closet and not to try at all cost to win the league. The VHLM is the bonding place for rookies, and we should focus on their needs and goals. Let's be honest here. If Gustav (I am choosing you as you are already part of the conversation) recreates his upteenth Tsujimoto, I know that no bonding is required (nor any assistance for that matter). Theoretically, if I end up with acquiring Gustav's player, be it via draft or FA, the best thing for the league would be to give him 3rd/4th line time or backup duties as the case may be. After all, Gustav has already had his swing at trophies and glory. But for a rookie it means the world if they can play top line minutes regardless of their TPE and/or weekly TPE influx. Which means in my opinion that they are more likely to stick around than if they sit in the passenger seat get 1-2 minutes icetime per match and watch a bunch of veterans and recreates do the heavy lifting.

 

I guess for most recreates, the VHLM is a necessary evil, to the ultimate goal to play in the VHL again as soon as possible. 

 

Don't get me wrong, veterans and recreates are very valuable in the locker room as well as on the ice. The former, because they can also give advice if the GM or AGM isn't for any reason and the latter because they generally are regular earners and know more or less what to do with their build. I just think, they should not necessarily be constantly in the lime light. Let the 1st gens be the star of the show that is the VHLM.

 

 

 

 

So my question to you would be "Do you oppose a rule that requires recreate to play on the lowest line and/or not be paired with another recreate?"

[Daniel Janser 1,982]

1 minute ago, nurx said:

So my question to you would be "Do you oppose a rule that requires recreate to play on the lowest line and/or not be paired with another recreate?"

See, I am not a fan of absolute rules like the one you suggest. But that is a matter of preference. I have a more practical reason why this would be challenging (leaving out all the potential scenarios where a franchise could be severely crippled, if they cannot focus their best (or only players) in one formation):

 

If you make rules, you need to enforce them. If you want to enforce them, you need a control organ of some sort, i.e. some poor soul whose job it will be to check every line of every team before every sim. Frankly, I cannot see that happening as it is just too time consuming and not at all interesting (somewhere between watching paint dry and listening to a comment of a golf match), nor rewarding.

 

 

 

[Spartan 4,001]

I'm on my phone rn so this'll be short. I'd rather drop M cap even further to cycle folks out of it sooner than to start treating recreates and first gens differently. Maybe a 150 cap for the M and leave the hard cap for the E, 300 soft cap though so VHL teams can call up folks sooner if they have the roster spots. 

 

Cycles players out of the M sooner, which would make sense with the recent league realignments. No recreate would spend more than a season, and TDL recreates will hit 150 by the E draft in most cases. That way first gens would continue to be the primary focus and recreates would just supplement the team. Also allows for more call up flexibility from E to VHL, kills a few birds with one stone. 

[Gustav 6,112]

10 minutes ago, nurx said:

So my question to you would be "Do you oppose a rule that requires recreate to play on the lowest line and/or not be paired with another recreate?"

 

Yes.

 

I don't personally care about my VHLM stats. I couldn't tell you how I did in the VHLM with my player. It's important to add to that that I feel exactly the same way about the VHLE--playing there wouldn't make me any more interested. But that's beside the point.

 

I'm against it for the reason stated above, as well as because that doesn't necessarily solve any issues. The main issue with ice time would be largely solved in my portal idea (imo), and in many cases, it doesn't actually do anything. Especially if the portal thing were adapted, rosters would be more spread out, and on a lot of teams, there wouldn't even be a third or fourth line to throw a recreate on. Again, the problem is not recreates existing--the problem is the system. There is a way to do it that doesn't involve anyone's ice time being stepped on and doesn't isolate newer people from the rest of the league...so let's do that!

 

 

Also:

33 minutes ago, nurx said:

I nearly entirely put myself into a bubble in the Marauders and haven't really felt like I really fit with any other team.

 

Don't you think separating newer people more just makes this problem worse? You're not the only one with this experience, by the way. S65's Houston team was very well-known for a very new, very active roster, and I loved it, but I was the only one to make it even a couple seasons after S65 ended because we were all so used to only seeing each other. My GM was the ONLY experienced member I knew for most of the season, and I was super active. Many were hyped to get drafted but had no idea what to do after that point. I saw this as a GM, too--players I had who loved Mississauga disappeared after moving out, because we'd given them a very good TEAM experience, but they hadn't necessarily given themselves a very good LEAGUE one. Removing a good portion of the potential mentorship and higher-up connection from the VHLM will do nothing but make us see this more.

 

I agree with your point that big-league GMs and other members not necessarily affiliated with the teams should be more present in general, but what reason is there to believe that they would be if the VHLE became the recreate league? If anything, that would give these people less of a reason to be around.

 

One big thing I think isn't done well on the part of many VHLM GMs--and I recognize that this is all personal preference--is some sort of perceived need to keep everything in a team-only channel. I HATE TEAM-ONLY CHANNELS (especially in the VHLM). Davos only has one that I'd rather not have, but I know some enjoy, and I didn't even have one in Mississauga (the only private channel was an alumni-specific one that nobody used). Because of that, in my time in the minors, chat popped off every day. It brought in active people from other places, not because they felt they had to be there, but because they wanted to have fun with us and be a part of our fun little community. If I decided to stick the team in a bubble, and speak to them and only them directly a majority of the time, I can guarantee that never would have happened to as much of an extent. And even still, some dropped off, because there's not much that can be done at a certain point. 

 

 

24 minutes ago, Spartan said:

I'm on my phone rn so this'll be short. I'd rather drop M cap even further to cycle folks out of it sooner than to start treating recreates and first gens differently. Maybe a 150 cap for the M and leave the hard cap for the E, 300 soft cap though so VHL teams can call up folks sooner if they have the roster spots. 

 

Cycles players out of the M sooner, which would make sense with the recent league realignments. No recreate would spend more than a season, and TDL recreates will hit 150 by the E draft in most cases. That way first gens would continue to be the primary focus and recreates would just supplement the team. Also allows for more call up flexibility from E to VHL, kills a few birds with one stone. 

 

I understand what you're saying, but I'm mostly just against this from an ideological standpoint. The fact that the E league was created as a necessary evil to get rid of roster space issues and we're already coming up with ways to double its size (at the expense of the M) and make it permanent is worrying. It's as if everyone is happy to pretend the negatives don't exist just because the change was presented publicly in a positive light.

 

I'm strongly in favor of the 300 TPE soft cap, though. Teams can keep players down if absolutely needed for roster space, but there's no reason why a high-earning 1st-round pick needs to be told they have to stay down another season. That's not who the change was ever meant to address--that and it makes the "it's way harder for the average member to make it up" truth less evident.

[bigAL 2,176]

My rationale has always been that first gens come first, recreates come second. When recreates join at the TDL, yes a lot of the season had passed and that’s the point. The first gens have already created a team culture, a leadership group, and an identity that is theirs  and not mine. When I’m drafted 5th overall to an M team, that becomes my team, I become the focus because I’m a 200 TPE player by day 5. I get voted C or A because I’m the star player. But, the other recreates and I don’t really care about that.
 

It’s so much more special for a first gen to take on that role. They get to be drafted in the top 5. They get to mentor the new recreates on how they do things on this team. They get to be the core group of the team. They get to be meaningful parts of something special, which matters because they probably won’t get that feeling in the VHL/E. 

 

Make the VHLM a first gen league where new members can take pride and ownership of their team and league. 

[Spartan 4,001]

9 hours ago, GustavMattias said:

I understand what you're saying, but I'm mostly just against this from an ideological standpoint. The fact that the E league was created as a necessary evil to get rid of roster space issues and we're already coming up with ways to double its size (at the expense of the M) and make it permanent is worrying. It's as if everyone is happy to pretend the negatives don't exist just because the change was presented publicly in a positive light.

 

I'm strongly in favor of the 300 TPE soft cap, though. Teams can keep players down if absolutely needed for roster space, but there's no reason why a high-earning 1st-round pick needs to be told they have to stay down another season. That's not who the change was ever meant to address--that and it makes the "it's way harder for the average member to make it up" truth less evident.

Was the E not created to be permanent? I don't really know what the BOG had in mind when it was created, but maybe there needs to be more clarification as to what this league was supposed to be outside of a method to prevent VHL rosters from getting overloaded with 250-400 TPE players. If we continue to recruit the way we have, I feel like it would be permanent no? 

 

I also don't want to double its size, just to provide methods for people who don't need more catered development to move on to leagues where they're not taking away from new member development. So many recreates missed out on the VHLE because we fell just short of the 201 cutoff, and even if we had, the PF payout is a bit of a deterrent as well. Those are roster spots that as @bigAL said, get taken away from first gens who could be making the team their own. We obviously don't want to leave first gens alone, but I'd rather move the people who don't need to be coddled in the M to the next level. It'd also help out a bit with the roster size issues in the M, especially if recruitment continues to succeed in the way they have.

[Beketov 8,645]

3 hours ago, Spartan said:

Was the E not created to be permanent?

It was 100% designed to be permanent, at least as I envisioned it. The only thing about it that was designed without an aspect of “permanence” was the fact that IF we need to remove it I wanted it to be able to be cleanly done. That’s the convenient thing about it being in the middle and the drafts taking place at the same time as the VHL. If it needs to be removed the VHLM cap goes back to 250 and anyone underneath that goes down to the team that did own them, anyone above that goes up to the VHL team that had drafted them. It’s oddly clean for something so complex.

 

However that was never a goal, it’s designed to stay, that’s just a contingency plan in case we need to get rid of it: having a way to do so cleanly.

[Gustav 6,112]

6 hours ago, Spartan said:

It'd also help out a bit with the roster size issues in the M, especially if recruitment continues to succeed in the way they have.

 

You'll see at some point in the future why this is a bad thing 

[Spartan 4,001]

Just now, GustavMattias said:

 

You'll see at some point in the future why this is a bad thing 

For what it's worth I did say that overly successful recruitment is harmful on my podcast, specifically over-recruiting when we already have teams mildly filled up. I don't know if that's along the same lines of what you're inferring to though. That we need to have more coordination and intentional targeting when recruiting with an eye on current league state to avoid expanding our user base before we have the potential to keep up with all of them.

[Shindigs 1,771]

On the waiver point, automatic assignment of 1st gens from waiver isn't ideal. Teams would obviously still need to want to claim the player in the first place. Same as it is now. But when we end up situations like Miami and I think Mexico this year where we have bots getting 15+ minutes of icetime 40% into the season, while other rosters are full. That is an issue. The "least goes first" similar to the NHL's "worst goes first" just means that after the teams have shown interest there is an order in which they get dibs on the player. That should even out the distribution a lot. Putting it on a completely new player to assign themselves to the correct team isn't really fair on the new player. Maybe just an agreement between GMs to not be trying to fill your literal last roster spot when another team can barely field a team would be enough though. As that wouldn't put as much work on any one governing body. It would spread the responsibility to not be a hoarder among the VHLM GMs instead. This again requires all the GMs to buy into being a developmental league, rather than trying to do everything in their power to win at all times. Which is hard to do, honestly. If we didn't like winning we'd hardly be playing sim hockey in our spare time, would we?

 

On the point of "Every team should still have recreates". This assumes a perfect world where every team DOES have active mentoring recreates. Miami has 0 to the best of my knowledge (outside the GMs), our only truly "veteran" player has never once been in the Discord, at least never sent a message as far as I know. So putting forwards things that *should* happen, but aren't *actually* happening as the reason we can't change something, doesn't really make sense. Now if recreates were evenly spread, that would fix that exact issue. But it wouldn't fix the issue @bigAL brings up. Which is what I have been struggling with this season. The feeling that you start so far behind the recreates that you feel like no matter what you do, you'll always just be worse than them (Unless you're Mia Khalifa and the sim just loves you). That's not a feeling that inspires most people to stick around. Max earning a full seasons so that on the last day of the year you can reach the TPE they had on day 1 is very, very demoralizing.

 

Which finally brings us to the E. I'll agree that purely from a community standpoint, subdividing it, especially if it is a relatively small community like VHL will usually lead to issues. But that assumes that we make decisions based only on the community itself, while not accounting for what actually brought the community here in the first place. Which is to say, some dank spreadsheet hockey. Yes, at some point most of us will likely not stay around because of that. We will stay around because of the amazing community. But at first we come for the hockey. So if sub-division is needed to make the very first part of your sim hockey career more enjoyable. Then maybe you need to consider making compromises by subdividing the community like it has been. Where exactly that compromise should ideally be is the very hard part, and we're basically arguing the details of that here. But arguing no sub-division at all feels unrealistic.

 

Final though: The E also suffers from something else, it's too new. We have this really cool super competitive (in theory) league called the CHL IRL. No not the real CHL, the European CHL (WHY DID THEY NAME IT THAT?!). Which just about no one cares about. Why doesn't anyone care? Because it's too new, it has no lineage. There is no history making it something to covet, unlike the soccer Champions League. That has lineage (and boatloads of TV money) which makes it arguably the biggest thing in all of Soccer. The two leagues use an effectively identically setup, yet one is #1 and the other is meh at best. Is it because the hockey CHL is a bad league? Or is it just a young league that still needs to get its lineage and create the rivalries that make it matter? Counter-argument: The E sucks because Västerås is in it, which to be fair is true.

 

Also @JardyB10 specifically stated he was tired of this topic. So I'll tag him just to force him back here, you're welcome!