Is building the meta trolling?

[NSG 498]

3 hours ago, Spartan said:

I agree, it sucks that we can't just implement something easily and quickly. However I think the league is having a fun time bashing Vancouver. Good way to bring us all together lol. 

I mean I don’t particularly enjoy getting bashed, especially when the whole team, which is full of excellent people who have done nothing to exacerbate this problem, getting bashed together. Especially poor Thad. He’s a Wolves player, and thus he’s being bashed for building an build that he can’t build.

 

3 minutes ago, Daniel Janser said:

I think what bothers some people is that the one who is running all the tests (as I understand it) is the one who at the moment is exploiting this meta the most (I am not saying he is the only one). Now, I am not saying that he does sabotage the testing or rig it or deliberately prolong the meta existence. All I am saying is, if you are from the outside looking in, it doesn't give you a fuzzy feeling about it, due to the apparent conflict of interest.

 

Imagine Exxon gets a monopoly to find an alternative fuel, with everyone else being benched on the problem. So Exxon is working on this alternative fuel on a (perceived) snail pace, while everyone else is forced to watch and twiddling thumbs, while Exxon is still selling oil and makes a shitload of money. Every now and then there is a PC from the Exxon brass 'We are working on it, a solution will be ready when it's ready, we cannot rush these things', while ripping everybody and their mothers off at the pump.

 

During my NCO training I was taught that a mediocre solution (or even a bad one) in time is a better solution than the perfect solution too late.

 

I appreciate that BOG wants to make the right moves and to spare a 'trial and error' phase. And honestly I my self do not give a damn about the meta, I play my player as I see fit and do not define myself over success in a virtual sports league at all. 

 

I think there will be a point of no return where so many players will have meta builds, because they are sick and tired of being in the passenger seat when not doing it that we can as well throw a dice at the beginning of the season for all the trophies. At that point we can as well nuke the VHL and restart from square one. I hope it will not come to that.

The issue I see is comparing the BOG and Nyko to Exxon. Exxon, in this example case, has everything to gain by not doing anything. The BOG has nothing to gain my going this slow. Nyko? Not sure about that situation, but I think there’s enough public scrutiny that he understands that he has to actually do something. And going back to the monopoly, Nyko does not have a monopoly on the league. He’s not in charge and can be disciplined if needed. I do, however, agree that the time is very near where everyone will have meta builds, so they need to come up with something pretty soon.

[Spartan 4,399]

8 minutes ago, Daniel Janser said:

I think what bothers some people is that the one who is running all the tests (as I understand it) is the one who at the moment is exploiting this meta the most (I am not saying he is the only one). Now, I am not saying that he does sabotage the testing or rig it or deliberately prolong the meta existence. All I am saying is, if you are from the outside looking in, it doesn't give you a fuzzy feeling about it, due to the apparent conflict of interest

Yeah, this sums up the anger pretty well.

 

I don't get why people brush over the fact that there are other GM's in the BoG as well, who can see the data. We have the source files, it's uploaded to an index for our viewing. We see every players ratings, the stats, and it's simmed by Bek himself. There's literally no way for the data to be biased without someone noticing. 

[Spartan 4,399]

2 minutes ago, NSG said:

I mean I don’t particularly enjoy getting bashed, especially when the whole team, which is full of excellent people who have done nothing to exacerbate this problem, getting bashed together. Especially poor Thad. He’s a Wolves player, and thus he’s being bashed for building an build that he can’t build.

I mean, outside of a few people who seem to have more radical views regarding the meta, I don't think anyone is coming after you, or Thad, or Cow, or anyone else on the team individually for the issue. Obviously the organization was built in a certain way, so the entire organization is going to get the heat for it. Clearly some of the accomplishments of the team aren't regarded favorably around the community. You or Thad didn't make the decision to build the team it was it has, but you guys get lumped in with the community's dislike of the team because you're reaping the benefits.

 

I see Jerome Reinhart's record breaking playoff success and think less of it, knowing that in the back of my mind, there was an exploit that played a role in it. I don't hate Cow for that, so I'm not going to bash him. I just don't respect the accomplishment much because of how I perceive the team's composition impacted it.

[Nykonax 1,564]

27 minutes ago, Daniel Janser said:

I think what bothers some people is that the one who is running all the tests (as I understand it) is the one who at the moment is exploiting this meta the most (I am not saying he is the only one). Now, I am not saying that he does sabotage the testing or rig it or deliberately prolong the meta existence. All I am saying is, if you are from the outside looking in, it doesn't give you a fuzzy feeling about it, due to the apparent conflict of interest.

I'm not simming any tests. Bek has done all of them. What I did was send him different ratings files to use because the tests other people did were flawed.  Like restricting the gap on just vancouver and not every other team makes it flawed, so I sent ratings files where everyone would abide by the same gap rules to show what changes it would make on the entire league. And those ratings files can be verified that nothing is up with them.

[Daniel Janser 2,166]

1 hour ago, Nykonax said:

I'm not simming any tests. Bek has done all of them. What I did was send him different ratings files to use because the tests other people did were flawed.  Like restricting the gap on just vancouver and not every other team makes it flawed, so I sent ratings files where everyone would abide by the same gap rules to show what changes it would make on the entire league. And those ratings files can be verified that nothing is up with them.

Ok so I must have misunderstood previous postings in the past and I apologize if anything I wrote added to the confusion.

[RomanesEuntDomus 442]

2 hours ago, Spartan said:

I mean, we're also not rushing into a change like the SHL did when they faced this issue. Has FHM really been any better for the league? It's arguably a lot more difficult to fix the issue with the limitations of STHS than to just switch sim engines and how the league operates in terms of updating and simming.

 

As for the three season point, the first season could be shrugged off because it was one season. Clearly you don't make knee jerk reactions off of one season. The second season was like "ok, this isn't great, let's figure something out." Now we're like two weeks into the third season. How much faster of a timeline do we expect here?

 

I was fairly critical of the SHLs transition to FHM but there must be a middle ground between rushing into a solution and sitting on your hands doing nothing for three seasons. You make it sound like that's barely any time when in reality it's like what, almost half a year in real life at this point?

 

I'm a firm beliver that when it comes to exploits and tricks like this, it's unrealistic to expect GMs and player to just not use them out of the goodness of their hearts, you can only really solve them through decisive league action and new rules. And at the very least we need a clear timeline, "we are working on it and present a solution when it's done" just doesn't cut it anymore after a while. If you can give that and name a date like next offseason, then I'm perfectly fine with not having a short-term solution. But we at least need an outlook like that to look forward to.

[Daniel Janser 2,166]

1 hour ago, NSG said:

I mean I don’t particularly enjoy getting bashed, especially when the whole team, which is full of excellent people who have done nothing to exacerbate this problem, getting bashed together. Especially poor Thad. He’s a Wolves player, and thus he’s being bashed for building an build that he can’t build.

 

The issue I see is comparing the BOG and Nyko to Exxon. Exxon, in this example case, has everything to gain by not doing anything. The BOG has nothing to gain my going this slow. Nyko? Not sure about that situation, but I think there’s enough public scrutiny that he understands that he has to actually do something. And going back to the monopoly, Nyko does not have a monopoly on the league. He’s not in charge and can be disciplined if needed. I do, however, agree that the time is very near where everyone will have meta builds, so they need to come up with something pretty soon.

I agree with the statement about Thad, on the other hand I have not seen anybody attacking him personally (the team as such yes, but that is collateral, I do not think anyone accused Thad to be a 'meta-goalie'.

 

Again I am not saying that Nyko is fixing the tests at all (I would never do such a thing without solid proof). But to state that a GM who has won two consecutive titles with a meta-team (and is dominating the league in a third season) is NOT profiting from the status quo is a little blue-eyed. Nyko the BOG has an interest in getting rid of the Meta because it becomes a retention problem sooner than later. Nyko the GM of Vancouver has a high interest that everything stays as it is, so his team can continue to win titles. There is clearly a conflict of interest, and we can only hope that BOG-Nyko wins this fight. Just to make this clear, I cannot know which interests prevail and I am not saying that Nyko is putting his GM interest above the League's, but in my point of view it is a legitimate question to raise (again as somebody looking from the outside in).

 

In my personal opinion, it would be an ideal scenario (at least PR wise) if Nyko took a Hiatus from GM-ing the Wolves. It would soften the above argument of conflict of interest.

 

@Nykonax I am not accusing you of any wrong-doing at all, I just have a habit of questioning 'the man' - if that gives you any discomfort, I apologize for that

[Spartan 4,399]

10 minutes ago, RomanesEuntDomus said:

 

I was fairly critical of the SHLs transition to FHM but there must be a middle ground between rushing into a solution and sitting on your hands doing nothing for three seasons. You make it sound like that's barely any time when in reality it's like what, almost half a year in real life at this point?

 

I'm a firm beliver that when it comes to exploits and tricks like this, it's unrealistic to expect GMs and player to just not use them out of the goodness of their hearts, you can only really solve them through decisive league action and new rules. And at the very least we need a clear timeline, "we are working on it and present a solution when it's done" just doesn't cut it anymore after a while. If you can give that and name a date like next offseason, then I'm perfectly fine with not having a short-term solution. But we at least need an outlook like that to look forward to.

You're right, it's no fun to not know when a fix is coming. As a GM/general member, I wanted a fix yesterday. Do you really think I'm content with doing nothing after losing in the finals twice to Vancouver? 

 

I can say that we want to implement something this offseason but we're not rushing into a fix. If people have ideas for a stopgap measure that doesn't involve rerolls, feel free to lay them out. We'll listen and see if it makes sense, we've done it with other community proposals.

 

I can also see from a financier standpoint, if there's a way to tweak salary brackets to target meta builds to make them more expensive as a stopgap measure. It'd also have to go through commissioners at the least, but I hope that's enough of an effort for you. I can't speak for the BoG or the league, but I hope that you don't worry anymore about how seriously at least I and others taking the issue. The last two finals are still fresh in my mind.

[thadthrasher 1,692]

12 minutes ago, Daniel Janser said:

I do not think anyone accused Thad to be a 'meta-goalie'.

Lol all it would take is a look at my season before Vancouver to see that my goalie is anything but meta

[Beketov 9,022]

21 minutes ago, RomanesEuntDomus said:

 

I was fairly critical of the SHLs transition to FHM but there must be a middle ground between rushing into a solution and sitting on your hands doing nothing for three seasons. You make it sound like that's barely any time when in reality it's like what, almost half a year in real life at this point?

 

I'm a firm beliver that when it comes to exploits and tricks like this, it's unrealistic to expect GMs and player to just not use them out of the goodness of their hearts, you can only really solve them through decisive league action and new rules. And at the very least we need a clear timeline, "we are working on it and present a solution when it's done" just doesn't cut it anymore after a while. If you can give that and name a date like next offseason, then I'm perfectly fine with not having a short-term solution. But we at least need an outlook like that to look forward to.

Our goal is the off season but you also have to keep in mind that the wording of “goal” is rather intentional. I could promise you next off season and then the next test could prove everything we thought was wrong and then we’re back at step 1 but with pissed members who were promised results.

 

We’re only human; this takes time.

[NSG 498]

48 minutes ago, Beketov said:

We’re only human; this takes time.

Just be superhuman then

 

Ez

[jRuutu 2,464]

11 hours ago, thadthrasher said:

This is part of the description you give for trolling.

 

 

 

 

These three quotes above are areas where you kind of address the issue while simultaneously calling a broad group of player/users "losers." Now, I'm not a meta player because I have a goalie, so I suppose I don't fall into this group (or maybe I do since I was traded to Vancouver), but of course I'm not a fan of there being a meta. But, as it's been pointed out, there will ALWAYS be a more dominant build over the others. That's not something we can get rid of. I'd love to see actual suggestions for a solution over insulting a team of people who spent time doing point tasks and using their TPE how they wish, and the person who manages the team. It seems to me that most of the conversations about the meta are focused more on trying to defrock Nyko and discredit everything he does instead of offering a logical and well thought out solution.

 

In this article there wasn't even an attempt at bringing forward a solution. Instead, it was set on doing one thing, digging into the rule book and finding any possible way to label a team and players as "trolls." What would this achieve exactly? What was your end goal with this entire article?

 

Now, I ask, what is a troll? Well, let's look to what you said...

 

This article was so focused on pinpointing a rule on someone and a team that it did the very thing that it accuses an entire team and Nyko of doing. Trolling.

 

I say all of this because I think you can offer up solutions that the BoG would love to hear, and I'm sure you already have. But the repeated comments, articles, and various other media used to kick at the sand and grumble "grrr meta" does nothing positive for the community or even the problem at hand.

The problem is not a dominant build - there are dominant players in sports, nothing wrong with it. Not every player can be dominant though.  The problem with this meta stuff is how cheap it is. The mentality, the thinking behind it. That is the problem. You are exploiters and lazy users cutting corners.

 

And I'm sorry, I was under the impression I can write about whatever I want as long as it's league related? Vancheater Wolves with their exploting meta ways is a layup for content. I'm not here to offer you solutions every single time I write about anything meta related. In fact, I will never offer you any solutions. My ''job'' is to post about the meta stuff so more and more users hear comments from the ''opposite side''.

 

Your team and users/teams following the meta path should receive nothing else than ridicule and punishment.  If you don't want to hear it or read it, don't click to my articles. That type of content is the cornerstone of my simulation league media empire.  Since you are looking for ideas, create a ''subforum for hate'', I will post there as long as I can claim TPE for it. That way there is even smaller chance for community members being negatively affected by ranting.

[jRuutu 2,464]

23 hours ago, Baozi said:

 

You basically just described STHS. Its as you say, its an app and a machine that counts the likelyhood of outcomes with certain variables based on your team setups lol. VHL is a chat league that we're having fun in and a community that participates in different types of activities. What? You think this is supposed to mirror real life?

 

And the players you mentioned? I don't know the others put Pulks was a terrible skater, I'd know. I watched him enough as he was a detroit prospect. He didn't fit the "meta". Among other things, if you can skate, it can make up for your other shortcomings and he had plenty. 

Why can it not mirror real life? Why do we have rules about what is ok to say and not to say? Not to mirror real life?  But once we step closer to the ''game'', the rules fly out of the window as the game is not supposed to mirror real life? As in - do not exploit or cheat, or do something that is against the spirit of the game/league.