No Fuhr: Mod Mentality

[Baozi 1,658]

13 minutes ago, Tate said:

I was never once contacted prior to the incident in October 2021.  YOU DID NOT DO YOUR DUE DILIGENCE. 
 

Show the message sent to me prior to Oct 2021. 
 

It does not exist.

 

Your article was May 5, 2021. We were informed during during the investigation you had already been talked to. On that note, even if you disregard that, referencing that post you made already indicated that you should stop and the article was already disturbing to some people already so I mean that's kind of an indicator in itself.

 

13 minutes ago, Tate said:

Ridiculously severe punishment for something the incident itself. A warning was more than enough. Again, this is what shows how blind you are.

 

If you can't comprehend how light this is then I don't know what to tell you. But sure we can continue with the personal attack at me.

 

13 minutes ago, Tate said:

 

All cases are individual and unique. All should take proper time and care, none of which you sufficiently do. 

 

Again you're just throwing accusations and personal attacks here that I can't even follow. I mean you're free to have that opinion of course, I can't really stop you. Its unfortunate I don't have some kind of counter for me to time how long I've been serving here and the time I use to review issues.

 

13 minutes ago, Tate said:

Your whole mindset is not appropriate for your position. 

 

That just sounds like an opinion. Which of course you're free to have but maybe you should prefix it or add a conditional "IMO" for that since there is no real factual support provided for this.

 

13 minutes ago, Tate said:

For someone as smart as you, it’s surprising to see how you cannot see the error in your ways.

 

Feels like a kettle/teapot type argument. Let me put it this way, how do I know you're right and I'm wrong or vice versa? Or is this grounded in the theory that everything you say is correct and there are no fallacies (of which I already seemingly pointed out) in your own mindset?

Edited October 30, 2022 by Baozi

[Tate 450]

9 minutes ago, Baozi said:

 

Your article was May 5, 2021. We were informed during during the investigation you had already been talked to. On that note, even if you disregard that, referencing that post you made already indicated that you should stop and the article was already disturbing to some people already so I mean that's kind of an indicator in itself.

 

 

 

The article was not the incident. You have to understand that I had no prior knowledge of an issue until the incident.

 

No one told me anything, and I presented the article to SHOW my past behaviour to indicate why I was flirtatious. I mean, get it right.

 

You got it wrong, and you won’t own it. I deserve an apology. What you and your team did was wrong.

 

9 minutes ago, Baozi said:

 

If you can't comprehend how light this is then I don't know what to tell you. But sure we can continue with the personal attack at me.

 

 

It’s not an attack, it’s an observation. Many of which I have had since we’ve started. 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Baozi said:

 

Again you're just throwing accusations and personal attacks here that I can't even follow. I mean you're free to have that opinion of course, I can't really stop you. Its unfortunate I don't have some kind of counter for me to time how long I've been serving here and the time I use to review issues.

 

 

 

You have more than demonstrated your mindset and how much you value the league members. Considering how difficult it was for me to get you to listen to feedback, that alone is a strong indicator of how much you value us. Because the league, just so you know, is spare time for everyone. Something you value so much when having to, “use,” on members like me.

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Baozi said:

 

Feels like a kettle/teapot type argument. Let me put it this way, how do I know you're right and I'm wrong or vice versa?

 

 

Because of my viewpoints and how they differ to you. You will always have your feedback loop of friends here that will defend you, but anyone who looks at both of our  arguments and has a rational, empathetic viewpoint, will vote for me.

Edited October 30, 2022 by Tate

[Baozi 1,658]

8 minutes ago, Tate said:

You got it wrong, and you won’t own it. I deserve an apology. What you and your team did was wrong.

 

I will not apologize for giving you a 2 week suspension for harassment and making a member feel sexually harassed and unsafe in our community.

 

8 minutes ago, Tate said:

It’s not an attack, it’s an observation.

 

Please let me know how you observe me to be "blind" since it is indicative of a physical impairment for me to be unable to read what you are typing.

 

8 minutes ago, Tate said:

You have more than demonstrated your mindset and how much you value the league members.

 

Why thank you. I'm glad someone appreciates the hundreds of hours of unpaid time myself and all other staff members have put into the community in order to keep it growing and making it a place for some people to be for over 10 years.

 

8 minutes ago, Tate said:

Because of my viewpoints and how they differ to you.

 

Maybe if you figure out that viewpoints aren't right or wrong but the information used to garner such viewpoints can be, then you may come to an understanding of how you're just attempting to create circumstantial instances of trying to convince me the error of my ways to make yourself that the harassment complaint against you was completely unjustified.

Edited October 30, 2022 by Baozi

[Tate 450]

11 hours ago, Baozi said:

 

I will not apologize for giving you a 2 week suspension for harassment and making a member feel sexually harassed and unsafe in our community.

 

 

Apologize for not doing your due diligence and labeling me with breaking consent. When I had no prior knowledge at all, and if you want me to break out the word for word incident we can do that.

 

It will show again why you take things way too far.

 

 

11 hours ago, Baozi said:

 

Please let me know how you observe me to be "blind" since it is indicative of a physical impairment for me to be unable to read what you are typing.

 

 

 

 

All you’re trying to do here is catch me and use this as literal, when you’re smart enough to know exactly what I mean. You're blind to your severe punishments, you think they’re fair, when they are not. You don’t do the proper work to confirm it, not with me, not with JRuutu.

 

Ignorant is another word, would that be better?

 

 

11 hours ago, Baozi said:

Why thank you. I'm glad someone appreciates the hundreds of hours of unpaid time myself and all other staff members have put into the community in order to keep it growing and making it a place for some people to be for over 10 years.

 

Sarcasm. The highest form of flattery.

Edited October 31, 2022 by Tate

[Baozi 1,658]

2 minutes ago, Tate said:

Apologize for not doing your due diligence and labeling me with breaking consent. When I had no prior knowledge at all, and if you want me to break out the word for word incident we can do that.

 

Maybe you should refer to your victim instead. The consent isn't decided by me but by them. Or are you implying I created a fake complaint against you so I could remove 12 tpe from you player?

 

5 minutes ago, Tate said:

Your blind to your severe punishments

 

I still don't know by what metric you think this is a severe punishment for a sexual harassment incident. If I take your player red lite and subtract 12 TPE from them, it comes out to 1% of your total tpe of which you had 167 banked. Consideration was taken to the context of the situation and prior history.

 

10 minutes ago, Tate said:

Sarcasm. The highest form of flattery.

 

I'm fairly certain the phrase is actually imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

[Tate 450]

11 hours ago, Baozi said:

 

Maybe you should refer to your victim instead. The consent isn't decided by me but by them. Or are you implying I created a fake complaint against you so I could remove 12 tpe from you player?

 

 

Feel free to talk to said victim in private. Not only does she agree that things were handled wrong she also knows I was never informed prior. 
 

To have been informed prior and then continue with the behaviour is breaking consent. Which is what you thought you had on me. But you were wrong, and that’s caused me a great deal of pain.

 

You and your team have caused me pain you have never attempted to fix it, and instead, I am the one who has taken it upon myself to repair a bond that was broken.

 

The difference in how we approach situations is why you should not be in your role. 

 

 

11 hours ago, Baozi said:

 

I still don't know by what metric you think this is a severe punishment for a sexual harassment incident. If I take your player red lite and subtract 12 TPE from them, it comes out to 1% of your total tpe of which you had 167 banked. Consideration was taken to the context of the situation and prior history.

 

 

 

The PRIOR HISTORY WAS WRONG.  You have to, and I mean have to, get it right. Especially when it involves such brutal accusations!

 

11 hours ago, Baozi said:

 

I'm fairly certain the phrase is actually imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

 

I was being sarcastic, duh.

Edited October 31, 2022 by Tate

[Esso2264 774]

why am i pinged

[Tate 450]

2 minutes ago, Esso2264 said:

why am i pinged

Find it and you’ll know why.

Edited October 30, 2022 by Tate

[Tate 450]

9 minutes ago, Esso2264 said:

why am i pinged

 

Mostly to show how the ramifications of these punishments cause a ripple affect 

 

(for clarity)

Edited October 30, 2022 by Tate

[Baozi 1,658]

21 minutes ago, Tate said:

Feel free to talk to said victim in private.

 

I am in no way dragging someone back to question something that obviously hurt them. Are you sure you know how victim trauma affects people? Why is this even an option or something to consider.

 

21 minutes ago, Tate said:

To have been informed prior and then continue with the behaviour is breaking consent

 

This is literally not how consent works. It is not when someone has said "no". Its actually when you have not gained a "yes" and you proceed.

 

Edited October 30, 2022 by Baozi

[Tate 450]

10 minutes ago, Baozi said:

 

I am in no way dragging someone back to question something that obviously hurt them. Are you sure you know how victim trauma affects people? Why is this even an option or something to consider.

 

 

 

I have talked at length with her, which is why it’s an option. I wouldn’t say it otherwise because what I’ve been saying all along is that YOU GOT YOUR FACTS WRONG.

 

10 minutes ago, Baozi said:

 

This is literally not how consent works. It is not when someone has said "no". Its actually when you have not gained a "yes" and you proceed.

 

 

I have an incredible amount of yes’s before the incident, in fact, that’s all it ever was until Oct 2021. 
 

I would hope that the reasonable members of the Mod team who were involved, would understand, and accept their responsibility. Take accountability, and apologize to me.

 

I don’t expect anything from you, Baozi. How people from here on out don’t look at you and see the hole you’ve dug will be beyond me.

 

But I do hope others speak up, because this is my feedback after all, and it damn well matters to me.

Edited October 30, 2022 by Tate

[youloser1337 1,105]

3 hours ago, Tate said:

people like JRuutu - we do. 

[hedgehog337 3,483]

14 minutes ago, youloser1337 said:

 

[youloser1337 1,105]

1 minute ago, hedgehog337 said:

 

[hedgehog337 3,483]

3 minutes ago, youloser1337 said:

 

[youloser1337 1,105]

8 minutes ago, hedgehog337 said:

 

[hedgehog337 3,483]

Just now, youloser1337 said:

 

[jacobcarson877 2,528]

maybe I will give this a listen after all

[Tate 450]

1 minute ago, jacobcarson877 said:

maybe I will give this a listen after all

 

[jacobcarson877 2,528]

Alright I got pretty far into it, and I am genuinely glad I listened because as people have said before it was genuinely well spoken and I can at least see where you would be coming from.

 

I don't want to get all political in here because oh boy that would blow this relatively simple issue way out of proportion, but I do have a few thoughts about where I disagree with you.

First off, I think we both stand in a place that is very pro-education. When it comes to the real world I think that education is such a huge part of making a mistake and moving forward from it. And as such, I am also incredibly pro-deplatforming. This is what many would call "cancel culture" although there are many people who take that idea way too far. I don't think one should have the platform to preach, before being educated on their failures. What does this mean for the VHL? Honestly many of the non-permanent or non-long term bans/mutes or whatever honestly just feel like a service to the person receiving them. A sort of a "Take a break, relax, cool off and come back later". Why I say this is a service is we know that people can get wound up and say things progressively worse and worse. By cutting that off at an early sign, the hope is that we avoid more bans, hurt and general discomfort amongst the community. Of course the mods will jump too early sometimes, and of course we should be critical when that happens, but if we're talking about overall good, I'd rather see this than an under-moderated community.

 

I also think it is unfair to expect mods to be educators rather than enforcers. It doesn't take an expert to enforce the rules, and we don't hire mods to be the experts. They're quite literally volunteers. It isn't their responsibility to change people or save them or anything. This is where I think the internet breaks away from real life. We as a community have a responsibility to each other to hold each other accountable, and the mods are there to deal with any of the more serious cases.

 

So the question then becomes how can we operate online as people who are pro-education without qualified educators? The answer isn't exactly clear and this is why there appears to be so much turmoil when it comes to moderation and censorship on the internet.

 

I think the mods are excellent at enforcing the rules. I think they're great individuals to interact with. I haven't necessarily agreed with them on everything, but I can always see where they came from and respect that. Context means a lot and sometimes punishments have to be preemptive to avoid worse conflicts.

 

And also at the end of the day, the mods hold so little power, and their punishments truly mean so little. We treat these punishments as if they're fines or jail sentences. A 2-week TPE ban in the grand scheme of life is so laughably small. Heck a permanent ban from a simulation hockey league is so irrelevant.

 

I've read the entire ban thread multiple times, because it is so entertaining. I don't remember who has gotten dinky little temporary bans for saying something bad. If I do remember those people it is because they continue to bait people and push the limits and everyone's buttons to this day. I remember the mean things people have said, and the hurt people have caused, regardless of their punishment. I don't hold a punishment against people, and neither does the league. But if those behaviors don't change then I obviously hold that against them.

 

Anyways, I've once again pulled a Gustav and written a media spot in response to a thread way too late. Appreciate your ideas and I do think hearing them come out of your mouth does make them sound a lot better than reading them, and I applaud you for pushing people to listen and understand the tone. I think you speak far more cautiously and effectively than you type at least when it comes to conflict, and I'll try to keep that in my mind as I read your work moving forwards and give your text the benefit of the doubt. 

[v.2 1,406]

[Tate 450]

4 hours ago, jacobcarson877 said:

Alright I got pretty far into it, and I am genuinely glad I listened because as people have said before it was genuinely well spoken and I can at least see where you would be coming from.

 

 

Thank you very much for listening, it really means a lot to me, and your thoughtful response afterward is very much much appreciated. 

 

 

4 hours ago, jacobcarson877 said:

First off, I think we both stand in a place that is very pro-education. When it comes to the real world I think that education is such a huge part of making a mistake and moving forward from it. And as such, I am also incredibly pro-deplatforming. This is what many would call "cancel culture" although there are many people who take that idea way too far. I don't think one should have the platform to preach, before being educated on their failures. What does this mean for the VHL? Honestly many of the non-permanent or non-long term bans/mutes or whatever honestly just feel like a service to the person receiving them. A sort of a "Take a break, relax, cool off and come back later".

 

Where I strongly disagree is the reasons for punishment and severity of them are way beyond what is reasonable.

 

If you look at both JRuutu and I, they got it wrong. I’ve stated above what they did to me in detail, but it’s important to mention that even when debating Baozi he referenced JRuutus incident and made it sound as though JRuutu said homosexuality was wrong. When in reality he said no one’s cares if you’re homosexual.

 

For more proof of this, check out JRuutus current MS:

 

 

 

4 hours ago, jacobcarson877 said:

Why I say this is a service is we know that people can get wound up and say things progressively worse and worse. By cutting that off at an early sign, the hope is that we avoid more bans, hurt and general discomfort amongst the community. Of course the mods will jump too early sometimes, and of course we should be critical when that happens, but if we're talking about overall good, I'd rather see this than an under-moderated community.

 

 

Not when it causes harm like they did to me. They caused more hurt than good in trying to “resolve” the issue. I am a person and I matter.

 

 

4 hours ago, jacobcarson877 said:

I also think it is unfair to expect mods to be educators rather than enforcers. It doesn't take an expert to enforce the rules, and we don't hire mods to be the experts.

 

In my opinion it is the opposite. A moderator is an educator by nature because they know the rules. How they keep peace should be done with care and respect.

 

 

4 hours ago, jacobcarson877 said:

They're quite literally volunteers. It isn't their responsibility to change people or save them or anything. This is where I think the internet breaks away from real life. We as a community have a responsibility to each other to hold each other accountable, and the mods are there to deal with any of the more serious cases.

 

Im going to flip this on you and say that we, as leaders of this community, do have a responsibility to help the members to our best ability. Which means treating them with care, especially if we want to create the kind of peaceful- inclusive- environment that everyone wants here.

 

 

4 hours ago, jacobcarson877 said:

So the question then becomes how can we operate online as people who are pro-education without qualified educators? The answer isn't exactly clear and this is why there appears to be so much turmoil when it comes to moderation and censorship on the internet.

 

 

I can help teach the current team how better to approach situations, especially ones involving investigation. I can also help them to understand coaching better. All of which I have real world training for, and I have also demonstrated what my mindset is through my podcast and responses.

 

My hope is for people to see the human in me, hear my voice, and understand the compassion and willingness I have to do what’s right. 

 

 

4 hours ago, jacobcarson877 said:

I think the mods are excellent at enforcing the rules. I think they're great individuals to interact with. I haven't necessarily agreed with them on everything, but I can always see where they came from and respect that. Context means a lot and sometimes punishments have to be preemptive to avoid worse conflicts.

 

All long standing members of this league are awesome and worth fighting for. No one deserves punishment, period. 

 

 

4 hours ago, jacobcarson877 said:

And also at the end of the day, the mods hold so little power, and their punishments truly mean so little. We treat these punishments as if they're fines or jail sentences. A 2-week TPE ban in the grand scheme of life is so laughably small. Heck a permanent ban from a simulation hockey league is so irrelevant.

 

 

 

They have the power to affect a persons well being and mental health, and their reputation. That is tremendous power. I’ve been in the sim world now for over four years. I’ve made lifelong friends. This matters to me.

 

 

4 hours ago, jacobcarson877 said:

I've read the entire ban thread multiple times, because it is so entertaining. I don't remember who has gotten dinky little temporary bans for saying something bad. If I do remember those people it is because they continue to bait people and push the limits and everyone's buttons to this day. I remember the mean things people have said, and the hurt people have caused, regardless of their punishment. I don't hold a punishment against people, and neither does the league. But if those behaviors don't change then I obviously hold that against them.

 

 

 

I was never given the chance to change my behaviour, which is what was wrong. You may not hold punishments against people, but you can sure bet other people do.

 

 

4 hours ago, jacobcarson877 said:

Anyways, I've once again pulled a Gustav and written a media spot in response to a thread way too late. Appreciate your ideas and I do think hearing them come out of your mouth does make them sound a lot better than reading them, and I applaud you for pushing people to listen and understand the tone. I think you speak far more cautiously and effectively than you type at least when it comes to conflict, and I'll try to keep that in my mind as I read your work moving forwards and give your text the benefit of the doubt. 

 

It really means a lot to hear your feedback, reading your message I was thinking about how such a cool and nice person you are. That’s what makes this place so special, people like you.

 

And people like me

 

 

 

Edited October 31, 2022 by Tate

[youloser1337 1,105]

12 minutes ago, Tate said:

If you look at both JRuutu and I, they got it wrong. I’ve stated above what they did to me in detail, but it’s important to mention that even when debating Baozi he referenced JRuutus incident and made it sound as though JRuutu said homosexuality was wrong. When in reality he said no one’s cares if you’re homosexual.

 

Doesn't make it right.

 

13 minutes ago, Tate said:

And people like me

[Tate 450]

2 minutes ago, youloser1337 said:

 

Doesn't make it right.

 

If that’s how you feel, that’s how you feel. Doesn’t mean I’ll stop caring about you as a person. 
 

Edited October 31, 2022 by Tate

[youloser1337 1,105]

Just now, Tate said:

If that’s how you feel, that’s how you feel. Doesn’t mean I’ll caring about you as a person. 
 

 

Glad it goes both ways