Why the VHL Sucks at Retention

[Spartan 4,402]

1 minute ago, Tate said:

Just to clarify further, I was not calling Frank toxic. I was speaking on each point I made. Frank is an excellent hire, and the right choice. My point is that the line ahead of him was much longer and people in that line didn’t even get an interview. 

IIRC there were no interviews sent out in general. I don't think there have been interviews used for a period of time. Also I disagree that the line was that long, in fact I think that every qualified candidate at the time he was hired has already received a VHL GM gig. IR, Kaleeb, Thad, Moon, N0H, maybe even Acyd(?) have all been on the wait list recently and have gotten their turn. None of them seemingly went IA after Frank got the position. I genuinely do think the hires have been a lot better recently.

 

5 minutes ago, Tate said:

current example of a bad hire for the mod team is @Dil. Go look at Ricers complaint for evidence, and read his history in Discord. I like Dil as a member, as a person, but not as a mod. Dil gets away with saying some horrendous stuff, far beyond what I ever did. These are individuals who cause harm in what they do and they’re key cogs in the wheel of the VHL

And I'd still request that these sorts of concerns get reported using the incident form that we're trying to make more folks aware of. They obviously can't sit on their own conduct reviews so it's your best shot at oversight.

 

6 minutes ago, Tate said:

For toxic hires I am going to point at the mod team. Fishy was a toxic, damaging hire, and is a toxic member. Baozi in my opinion is also not only bad for the role, but makes bad hires

Something else I've sort of learned since I joined BoG and some staff roles is that moderation can be influenced by the BoG if there are valid arguments and decisions made to shape the direction of moderation. Otherwise the mod team as a whole is given leeway to do what they feel is appropriate with the Blues signing off as needed. I wouldn't really put any agenda on a single mod, but if you've got a concern about specific moderation policies, I think sending a BoG member a formal writeup for discussion would be the best way to go about it. You get more non-mods with a platform discussing your points.

[Tate 450]

Everyone from here on out should follow Spartans advice in the above reply. 
 

Also, everyone take note of the staff who did come in here and how they’ve responded. 
 

When I spoke of great leaders being here already, you’re seeing them now.

[samx 1,173]

You know, I wasn't going to get involved in this thread but it's reached a point.

 

1. If you have problems with a member or feel as though they are mistreating you, being toxic etc. You can report. you can report anonymously. you can report to a mod you trust. Another option is reach out to that person privately and say hey look I didn't appreciate these comments if you could please refrain... etc etc. there are better ways of going about it then putting people on blast here.

 

2. I feel like honestly this is gone past the initial point of retention needs improvement. I can fully agree with you on that point. Retention is not the best. But also that comes far more with M gms and others to make sure players know what they are doing and feel involved. There are inevitably people who are going to get jobs faster than others. There's a lot that goes into deciding who gets a job. Yeah it can take a long time. Take it from me who took  over a year to even get an agm gig.

 

3. I think you are possibly taking some sarcasm as toxicity. And I can see how it comes off that way if you don't know people overly well. People who don't know me well yet are sometimes like Sam is an ass and then realize 99.9% of the things I say are pure jokes and if they are uncomfortable I will stop said jokes. 

 

4. Things are a work in progress. I can firmly say in my experience how the vhl was when I joined almost 3 years ago and now and far different and has made great improvements.

[Tate 450]

10 hours ago, samx said:

You know, I wasn't going to get involved in this thread but it's reached a point.

 

1. If you have problems with a member or feel as though they are mistreating you, being toxic etc. You can report. you can report anonymously. you can report to a mod you trust. Another option is reach out to that person privately and say hey look I didn't appreciate these comments if you could please refrain... etc etc. there are better ways of going about it then putting people on blast here.

 

2. I feel like honestly this is gone past the initial point of retention needs improvement. I can fully agree with you on that point. Retention is not the best. But also that comes far more with M gms and others to make sure players know what they are doing and feel involved. There are inevitably people who are going to get jobs faster than others. There's a lot that goes into deciding who gets a job. Yeah it can take a long time. Take it from me who took  over a year to even get an agm gig.

 

3. I think you are possibly taking some sarcasm as toxicity. And I can see how it comes off that way if you don't know people overly well. People who don't know me well yet are sometimes like Sam is an ass and then realize 99.9% of the things I say are pure jokes and if they are uncomfortable I will stop said jokes. 

 

4. Things are a work in progress. I can firmly say in my experience how the vhl was when I joined almost 3 years ago and now and far different and has made great improvements.

Hi Sam, there is truth to all sarcasm. That’s a life lesson btw, anytime someone uses it on you they believe what they’re saying. 
 

Sam, you’re a gem. I have no issues with you whatsoever. I wish I could clone you, and make you every mod. You’re a lovely person with a kind heart. Which is why you always come to the aid of your team.

 

Keep being you.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Tate

[Tate 450]

Also I should just mention, I’m not coming back, so I’ve got nothing to lose here. I’m going to speak my truth, and you may not like it, but it might cause some others to notice or think about these things.

 

All of what I have done here is to explain my retirement, for the present members, and for the future. 

[Juice 641]

1 hour ago, Tate said:

So all of the examples I gave were relevant to my original points. I can give you more examples by DM but you don’t have a problem hiring people.

 

You’re literally one of the people on this site I am NOT talking to with this thread, and yet, my most active critic.

 

This is directly against Bek, Josh, Big Al, Baozi, fishy, and a few others. Naming more names won’t change anything. The most concerning parties are the people I’ve listed.

 

I'll tell Big Al you're coming after him for ya

[Tate 450]

4 minutes ago, Juice said:

 

I'll tell Big Al you're coming after him for ya

 

He was one of the people involved with my suspension and enabling this movement of the COC change.  Just in case anyone is curious.  Again, I like Al as a member, as a person -- but wanted to clarify who it was I've been talking about. 

[Tate 450]

46 minutes ago, Spartan said:

IIRC there were no interviews sent out in general. I don't think there have been interviews used for a period of time. Also I disagree that the line was that long, in fact I think that every qualified candidate at the time he was hired has already received a VHL GM gig. IR, Kaleeb, Thad, Moon, N0H, maybe even Acyd(?) have all been on the wait list recently and have gotten their turn. None of them seemingly went IA after Frank got the position. I genuinely do think the hires have been a lot better recently.

 

The only thing I want to comment on here (for others visibility), is let's say that the line of applicants was not that long - doesn't mean interviews should not be done.  This is what I mean about doing your due diligence.  Now, we all know how busy Bek is, and again (I quite like Bek), but this is why I have always stated that there should be a minimum of 3 active commissioners.  Their workload is way too high for just 2 people, let alone 1.  

 

My overarching theme on the first point I made was making the process of applying visible and fair.  If everyone feels like they had a chance at the job, and Frank still gets it- the mood in the room is far less tense.  This is just a fact of how emotions work with people. 

 

 

 

[Tate 450]

1 hour ago, Mr_Hatter said:

I'm not going to quote your individual parts as I am on mobile, but a few comments.

 

Hi Hatter, I did not initially see your reply until now. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Mr_Hatter said:

1) You don't "earn" a position by nature of being in the league for X amount of time. You earn it by being a good fit for the job. A good GM will increase retention far more than a bad GM getting a job, as that satisfies one member, a good GM will satisfy 20+ over the seasons. Your example of Frank being a bad thing for league retention is IMO ridiculous. 

 

 

Not ridiculous, I guess I'm doing a bad job of explaining it because everyone seems to be getting my point wrong.  My whole thing on Frank was HOW the process was conducted.  I don't believe I've earned a job due to my time in the league, but based on my contributions (which are outside of this, very positive), I should have at least been given an interview.  I'm talking about how choices like that kill morale in others.  It's about how people feel they've been, "treated," - whether they are right or wrong in their observations.  

 

Frank is fantastic, for the love of all holy.  That's why I pointed to a GOOD hire done poorly. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Mr_Hatter said:

2) You are consistently pointing to the mod team as examples of bad staff, specifically fong and fishy. While I don't always see eye to eye with every action taken by every current or former member of the mod team, it's an absurdly demanding job where they get almost no credit and all the blame. It's easy to screenshot instances of people making jokes or comments that are "toxic" in a vacuum while ignoring the hundreds of comments and bullshit that they would have to deal with and endure prior to that. Attempting to launch initiatives to improve the league's health and crackdown on toxic behavior, then being constantly slandered for it will erode anyone's goodwill. I haven't read up on the circumstances of your ban, or the podcast you linked, so I can't comment on whether or not you think it's justified, but what I will say is that you really have to work to get on the mod team's bad side. It's not just a one time thing. If you're getting called out, then you probably deserve to get called out. And if you are going to call someone a toxic person, you'll get a response in kind. 

 

 

So, I kept silent when I came back, and I tried to play nice.  I spoke out because of what I saw them do over a calendar year.  Please, if you're interested, take the time to read my thread and listen to my podcast.  The listening part is the most important IMO because you hear my voice, and my real tone.  I do try to write in a way where I don't sound like a complete dick, but based on my responses I think I don't know how to write otherwise. lol. 

 

I'm sticking up for the silent people here, Hatter.  You may not be one of them, but there are others like me.  This is just for clarity (about me), none of this will likely change the league.  

[Mr_Hatter 1,608]

I understand your point about deserving an interview, and I do agree with that in general principle.  Was your application never acknowledged? 

[Tate 450]

10 minutes ago, Mr_Hatter said:

I understand your point about deserving an interview, and I do agree with that in general principle.  Was your application never acknowledged? 

Correct

[ThePerfectNut 563]

Welcome to the villain arc @fishy

[Beketov 9,025]

3 hours ago, Spartan said:

IIRC there were no interviews sent out in general. I don't think there have been interviews used for a period of time.

There haven't. We kinda chilled out on them because it was just interviewing the same people basically every time and getting the same answers in response. There's no point wasting everyone's time season after season with the same questions when we already know the answers we're going to receive. We aren't picking people out of a hat here but we generally know what each candidate is going to offer.

[Spartan 4,402]

1 minute ago, Beketov said:

There haven't. We kinda chilled out on them because it was just interviewing the same people basically every time and getting the same answers in response. There's no point wasting everyone's time season after season with the same questions when we already know the answers we're going to receive. We aren't picking people out of a hat here but we generally know what each candidate is going to offer.

But what happens with new candidates, as Tate seems to be? 

[Beketov 9,025]

2 hours ago, Tate said:

Also, everyone take note of the staff who did come in here and how they’ve responded. 
 

When I spoke of great leaders being here already, you’re seeing them now.

When you start off by basically saying I'm shit at my job my response isn't exactly going to be kind and would just prove your point so not sure what exactly you expected me to say. Apparently every hire I've made since before you joined was a bad one and I've been progressively ruining the league for the past 5 years, that sound about right based on your assessment?

 

Look, if you wanna have an actual conversation that's fine. I've been watching your conversation with @Spartan . My not responding doesn't mean I'm ignoring you, it means that I feel like you have some kind of vendetta against the majority of the staff and are going to react accordingly no matter what is said. So yeah, I'm not ignoring you I'm just choosing not to engage in the inevitable public argument. You wanna talk let's talk.

[Tate 450]

1 minute ago, Beketov said:

When you start off by basically saying I'm shit at my job my response isn't exactly going to be kind and would just prove your point so not sure what exactly you expected me to say. Apparently every hire I've made since before you joined was a bad one and I've been progressively ruining the league for the past 5 years, that sound about right based on your assessment?

 

 

Do me a favor and re-read the sections where I talk about you, specifically.  I didn't say any of what you just wrote above.  I actually think quite highly of you as a person, member, and site manager.  I outlined my reasons above, trying hard to acknowledge how much I like you and how much hard work you put in.  That doesn't mean that you shouldn't be made aware of these issues.  

 

 

1 minute ago, Beketov said:

Look, if you wanna have an actual conversation that's fine. I've been watching your conversation with @Spartan . My not responding doesn't mean I'm ignoring you, it means that I feel like you have some kind of vendetta against the majority of the staff and are going to react accordingly no matter what is said. So yeah, I'm not ignoring you I'm just choosing not to engage in the inevitable public argument. You wanna talk let's talk.

 

Definitely not a vendetta against the majority of staff, I've highlighted my concerns.  If I thought there was any point in reaching out to you privately before I made my decision to leave, I would have.  I did expect you to contact me after the Mod Mentality post, but at this point it does not matter.  

 

I want to make sure that you (Bek) know that I think you're not only a good person, but that you try as hard as you can.  It doesn't mean that you don't get things wrong, and this is a way for me to not only be specific but also to point it out for everyone else.  

 

When I leave this league, I will leave with no hate in my heart for you, Bek.  I wish you all of the best going forward, you're a good man.  Take care!

 

[ThePerfectNut 563]

How to say you’re ignoring without saying you’re ignoring 101 lolll

[Beketov 9,025]

4 minutes ago, Spartan said:

But what happens with new candidates, as Tate seems to be? 

If we feel we need information from them we'll ask but if someone is, in all likelihood, 4th or 5th down the list then it's wasting their time and it's wasting our time. It's not playing favourites to understand who will do well in a role purely from observing over time and honestly the interviews while we did them rarely caused anything to change from where our brains were initially at anyway. If, for example, your activity seems borderline aside from throwing occasional jabs at people why would you be considered for a GM job?

 

At the end of the day though it comes down to time more than anything. For the past while we've been filling 1-2 GM positions, if nothing else, every single off season on top of the ever growing pressure to move things along quicker and quicker. We can't realistically interview every single person for every single role and have things happen in a reasonable timeframe. I promise that every application was looked at even if I didn't personally respond to each one.

 

I'm not saying I don't regret some hires, I do, but sometimes you gotta do what seems best at the time.

[Tate 450]

3 minutes ago, Beketov said:

If we feel we need information from them we'll ask but if someone is, in all likelihood, 4th or 5th down the list then it's wasting their time and it's wasting our time. It's not playing favourites to understand who will do well in a role purely from observing over time and honestly the interviews while we did them rarely caused anything to change from where our brains were initially at anyway. If, for example, your activity seems borderline aside from throwing occasional jabs at people why would you be considered for a GM job?

 

 

I just want to speak on the part I bolded because I think Bek is referring to me here.  So, I have never missed a week, always maxed earn, and was a consistent donator.  I've also constantly contributed media to this site.  Outside of when I criticized you 3.5 years ago, and the mods recently - when have I ever thrown jabs? (the question is rhetorical, you will not find any)

 

 

3 minutes ago, Beketov said:

At the end of the day though it comes down to time more than anything.

 

 

This was the same issue 3.5 years ago.  You are only one person, but you've got a league filled with members.  You need more help 

 

Anywho, just had to respond to those parts. 

[Beketov 9,025]

I love when the site delete large responses I had typed up. Sigh.

 

13 minutes ago, Tate said:

Do me a favor and re-read the sections where I talk about you, specifically.  I didn't say any of what you just wrote above.  I actually think quite highly of you as a person, member, and site manager.  I outlined my reasons above, trying hard to acknowledge how much I like you and how much hard work you put in.  That doesn't mean that you shouldn't be made aware of these issues.  

Maybe I am reading between the lines incorrectly. I'm just saying when you come in with comments like "Spartan, Gus, and Acyd are great but...." and then call out Josh and I it doesn't exactly install the confidence that you have much faith in our abilities. Could be me, just seemed like subtext. I would love to be wrong.

 

12 minutes ago, Tate said:

I just want to speak on the part I bolded because I think Bek is referring to me here.  So, I have never missed a week, always maxed earn, and was a consistent donator.  I've also constantly contributed media to this site.

And the amount that I've seen you speak to anyone is minimal, maybe I'm not looking in the right places. Doing tasks and stuff is great but community is important. If someone is just quietly in the corner doing their work that's obviously fine but it doesn't tell me anything about them, it doesn't instil confidence that they will be around for their team. That's the kind of activity that I mean.

 

15 minutes ago, Tate said:

Outside of when I criticized you 3.5 years ago, and the mods recently - when have I ever thrown jabs? (the question is rhetorical, you will not find any)

I didn't mean you for that part to be honest. Also on the topic of 3.5 years ago (which trying to quote your other mention of it is what made me lost my post), I don't remotely care or hold that against you. I poke fun at it because it's a funny past. I'm not gonna start holding people's past against them in this league, my own certainly isn't perfect. Glass houses and throwing stones or whatever.

 

16 minutes ago, Tate said:

You are only one person, but you've got a league filled with members.  You need more help 

And the people capable of doing the job well are few and far between. Trust me, we have rarely run two people because we thought two was best. I learned a long time ago that a 3 man blue is best but that doesn't mean that we always have 3 strong people who can handle the job at once. Or more recently we have strong candidates, (Gus, Spartan, Acyd, etc) but they are needed in the VHLM and VHLE as well. There's a lot more positions than just blue and we can't steal other positions to make our lives easier. Trust me when I say that many more people WANT this job than people who can HANDLE this job.

[Tate 450]

5 minutes ago, Beketov said:

Maybe I am reading between the lines incorrectly. I'm just saying when you come in with comments like "Spartan, Gus, and Acyd are great but...." and then call out Josh and I it doesn't exactly install the confidence that you have much faith in our abilities. Could be me, just seemed like subtext. I would love to be wrong.

 

 

This is where I admit that my writing is not as good as it sounds in my head, and another reason why I wanted Baozi to listen to my voice.  This post is not about Spartan, Gus, and Acyd (he's too new to blue).  So, when they responded I had to sort of outline who/what I was talking about better.  Gus mentioned that my original post was vague or something like that, so then I decided to be specific. 

 

Just so you're 100% clear on what I was complaining in regards to you and Josh about are:

 

1. Rushed hires

 

2. Enabling staff who have detrimental affects on the league (again, I quite like Baozi as a person, and chatted with him today in Discord - very nice person).  But in outlining my Mod Mentality as well as their history this year, I'm trying to point out what happened, and by using me specifically I can argue it until the day is gone because I know all the details. 

 

3. Enabling Toxic Members, in the sense that if you were to go to Gen Chat right now, and look at the past week's messages. You'll see references in there about giving BJ's, doing your Mom, all sorts of stuff.  No one gets tagged for that, but I got hung out to dry for making what I thought was a joke.  I said something that even children wouldn't get sent to the office for, it's a slap on the wrist.  It's a crazy double standard. 

 

I want to be clear, I don't mind the jokes that happen in Gen Chat, and in fact I am a fan of dark humor.  I am merely pointing out how I was treated so dramatically different.  Horcrux (Kachur) was a huge factor in this as well, as the part of me being informed ahead of time of my inappropriate behavior never happened.  I wish I could show everyone all that I know, because I spent a lot of time agonizing over it. 

 

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, Beketov said:

And the amount that I've seen you speak to anyone is minimal, maybe I'm not looking in the right places. Doing tasks and stuff is great but community is important. If someone is just quietly in the corner doing their work that's obviously fine but it doesn't tell me anything about them, it doesn't instil confidence that they will be around for their team. That's the kind of activity that I mean.

 

 

You're not looking in the right places nor asking about the affect I have had on this league.  Ask about me, audit me.  Look at the impact I have had with members (especially those who have known me all along).  I stayed away from Discord because I got banned for saying Your Ass is Damn.  People want to say it's because I was harassing, but I was not, I was doing what I always did.  I know now that what I was doing was wrong, and it's changed how I approach conversations.  But to say that I am not active, is to be one hundred percent not looking. 

 

 

5 minutes ago, Beketov said:

I didn't mean you for that part to be honest. Also on the topic of 3.5 years ago (which trying to quote your other mention of it is what made me lost my post), I don't remotely care or hold that against you. I poke fun at it because it's a funny past. I'm not gonna start holding people's past against them in this league, my own certainly isn't perfect. Glass houses and throwing stones or whatever.

 

 

I believe you for the most part on that, however, some of your comments above suggest to me that you've not paid attention to the work I've put into this site.  And to be fair, you're busy as all hell.  I get it.  

 

I would buy you a beer in person if I could, would love to sit down and shoot the shit with you.  I like who you are as a person, I like what you've done for this league.  If I could do so right now, I would like to shake your hand.  

 

If you ever get around to listening to my podcast, if you could go back and just try to hear the words I am writing in my tone of voice - it will sound a lot better.  I think I want you to know at the end of all of this, that I think you're great, even though I said what I said above---

 

Actually, let me say it this way, after all that I have outlined above I still think you're great.  When I think of great leaders here, you're in the conversation, and all great leaders continue to learn and grow as they go.  You will too. 

I've watched you over the past 3.5 years navigate many difficult situations, and I respect you for how you do it. 

 

5 minutes ago, Beketov said:

And the people capable of doing the job well are few and far between. Trust me, we have rarely run two people because we thought two was best. I learned a long time ago that a 3 man blue is best but that doesn't mean that we always have 3 strong people who can handle the job at once. Or more recently we have strong candidates, (Gus, Spartan, Acyd, etc) but they are needed in the VHLM and VHLE as well. There's a lot more positions than just blue and we can't steal other positions to make our lives easier. Trust me when I say that many more people WANT this job than people who can HANDLE this job.

 

 

Yes, you are correct.  It's the hardest job in the league and IMO it should come with an automatic 12 TPE a week.  We've lost some great people due to the burnout that comes with it, and that in of itself demonstrates how strong and capable you are.