Why the VHL Sucks at Retention

[Tate 328]

Outsiders Don’t See the Benefit

 

Members are motivated by more than just player development.  In fact, many would argue that player development might be one of the least favored goals.  The VHL claims to have an array of job opportunities and prospects available to any member, but when those paths are continually blocked or denied, simply building a player isn’t enough.

 

I’ve always been one to believe that our members are our customers, our employees.  So, let’s look at some data from the Harvard Business Review - it shows that 88% of employees give some or heavy consideration to benefits like health benefits, bonuses, job growth and flexible hours.

 

It is more competitive than ever before to hire and maintain employees because of the number of opportunities elsewhere. 

 

If you don’t make the rules of the game visible and fair, you’re going to have poor results, and people will look elsewhere.

 

Bad Staff

We’ve all heard that people don’t leave jobs, they leave bosses. So, look at your turnover rate by team — in fact, by commissioner, manager, or mod — and see if there isn’t a trend.

 

Are members fading or quitting because a commissioner continually ignores them?  What about favoritism being given to those promoted to manager ahead of others who have been longing for a chance? Look at the utter disastrous wake of destruction the mod team has caused since the beginning or the COC change in Nov. of 2021.

 

According to Forbes, 42% of workers stated they had left a company because of a bad boss.

 

The problem is, even when bosses try to be good leaders, there’s often a disconnect between how employees want their managers to act and how employers think they’re supposed to act.

 

The number one thing that members want is appreciation of their contribution. So if you want members to stick around, focus your retention efforts on training staff to be better at soft skills — showing appreciation, communicating so that members feel like they know what’s going on, and being empathetic to your members concerns.  Not being selectively empathetic either – every member should matter.

 

The good news is that the VHL does have leaders who demonstrate these skills, so all is not lost.

 

But remember, tone bleeds down from the top.

 

Toxic Members

There is a group of members who lie in wait here, tired of doing media (far above it), and for some reason – angry. It’s the kind of smell that hangs in the air like rotten fish, and these are the members who are critical of others when they do media – when they contribute. These are the members who call others cringe.

 

Maybe they’re jealous of the attention that others receive? Maybe they just hate their own life and want to cause pain in others? Whatever the reason, mold spreads, and soon enough, it gets everywhere.

 

The problem is that these toxic members have stature in the VHL, and they’re allowed to walk the line of bullying others with little to no repercussion. Ultimately, it is because they are favored over others that they get away with it, and for what? Because they were here from the start? Because they put in time talking on Discord and now your friends? What about the impact they cause on the others, the hurt and pain they give out in backhanded compliments and passive aggressive statements? Why should they go unchecked when others are drawn and quartered for missteps?

 

It's hypocrisy at its finest, and it will continue so long as the silent majority remains timid and lets the loud minority rule this playground.

 

Bottom Line

I took a run at this league 3.5 years ago for this very topic, and the retention rate is even worse today. It’s a matter of where priorities lie, and people will always tell you where their priorities lie in how they spend their time. There is still time to fix this mess but it’s going to take a lot of tough conversations and hard work to do it.

 

And to that I say, good luck.

 

 

[Gustav 6,139]

There's a strange little phenomenon that I've seen on the Internet and that I saw mentioned in a video that basically boils down to "people on the Internet will immediately assume that everything you're saying is a direct attack on THEM PERSONALLY and will treat what you say as such." I say this because I just want to make it clear that my reaction to the following wasn't that; I'm just trying to get some clarity on what you mean.

 

4 hours ago, Tate said:

We’ve all heard that people don’t leave jobs, they leave bosses. So, look at your turnover rate by team — in fact, by commissioner, manager, or mod — and see if there isn’t a trend.

 

Are members fading or quitting because a commissioner continually ignores them?  What about favoritism being given to those promoted to manager ahead of others who have been longing for a chance? Look at the utter disastrous wake of destruction the mod team has caused since the beginning or the COC change in Nov. of 2021.

 

According to Forbes, 42% of workers stated they had left a company because of a bad boss.

 

The problem is, even when bosses try to be good leaders, there’s often a disconnect between how employees want their managers to act and how employers think they’re supposed to act.

 

The number one thing that members want is appreciation of their contribution. So if you want members to stick around, focus your retention efforts on training staff to be better at soft skills — showing appreciation, communicating so that members feel like they know what’s going on, and being empathetic to your members concerns.  Not being selectively empathetic either – every member should matter.

 

The good news is that the VHL does have leaders who demonstrate these skills, so all is not lost.

 

But remember, tone bleeds down from the top.

 

I think it's my responsibility to follow up on commissioners being called out in an article criticizing retention, because I'm a commissioner in the league where retention matters most. I agree with what you say about how the league should work, but I'd also say that we do our best to make it work that way. Could you give me any (recent) specific examples where you believe VHLM leadership might have been lacking? I'd say if there really is the sort of disconnect between members and leadership that you're talking about, it would certainly benefit us to know more than the sort of abstract statement this article presents.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Gustav

[Tate 328]

1 minute ago, Gustav said:

There's a strange little phenomenon that I've seen on the Internet and that I saw mentioned in a video that basically boils down to "people on the Internet will immediately assume that everything you're saying is a direct attack on THEM PERSONALLY and will treat what you say as such." I say this because I just want to make it clear that my reaction to the following wasn't that; I'm just trying to get some clarity on what you mean.

 

 

I think it's my responsibility to follow up on commissioners being called out in an article criticizing retention, because I'm a commissioner in the league where retention matters most. I agree with what you say about how the league should work, but I'd also say that we do our best to make it work that way. Could you give me any (recent) specific examples where you believe VHLM leadership might have been lacking? I'd say if there really is the sort of disconnect between members and leadership that you're talking about, it would certainly benefit us to know more than the sort of abstract statement this article presents.

 

 

Gustav, good sir, you're a part of the excellent leaders that are here. If I could personally pick an ambassador for the VHL that greets you at the door and walks you around, it would be you.  @Spartan , @Acydburn, are equally great leaders in their own right.  

 

None of this is a personal attack (per se).  I quite like @Beketov as a person and member, and I think he does a great job at making this site go from A to B.  Same is to be said for @Josh.  As people, members, and site managers, they rule. 

 

It's the lack of attention from them, on the matters I've listed above, that I'm primarily calling out on.  Obviously, Josh is away on parental leave, and Bek does the best he can - but that doesn't stop the fact that there's still steps that they do wrong. 

 

It would seem as though no one wants to accept that some of the people you have in your positions are not right for them (Head of Moderation for the love of almighty). However, these positions play key roles in league management and retention. I have no issues with what you're doing in the VHLM, Gustav, but I would argue that the VHLM is NOT the most important league for retention.  It's what happens beyond the VHLM where we lose people. 

 

You see, the VHLM is a ton of fun. The managers are engaging, the teammates are in it together, the vibe is altogether different.  Then you get to the VHL, and depending on where you land - the vibe could be amazing or it could be a ghost town --- or even worse, it could have toxic members hanging out in there that think for some reason that they're better than everyone?  Which is confusing for me.  I was blown away when @Baozi complained to me that they had to use their, "personal time," to listen to my complaint.  Just an insane thing to say from a person in that position.  That comment alone should warrant a conversation.

 

What is this site for, if it's not for personal time?  

 

Also, those members here who are outright toxic, get to walk around being outward POS's, and yet they still get rewarded with jobs. In fact, they're the first in line when the next one comes up. You think other people are not keenly aware of that? Only if you're ignorant.  

 

Listen, I have a lot to say on the matters above, but I also figured this was the best way to use my last .com article.  What better way to end it than with what got me in trouble in the first place?

 

But please, Gustav, of all people - do not believe any of the above involves you. It's what comes after you that I'm pointing at. 

[Spartan 4,004]

1 hour ago, Tate said:

Also, those members here who are outright toxic, get to walk around being outward POS's, and yet they still get rewarded with jobs. In fact, they're the first in line when the next one comes up. You think other people are not keenly aware of that? Only if you're ignorant

Curious as to who these are, DM me?

[Mr_Hatter 1,603]

The VHL isn't a business,  nor should it be. And even if it were, the league jobs would be closer to retail jobs rather than corporate, ie getting harrased by customers more often than having to deal with poor bosses. 

 

Fully agreed that toxicity is a huge problem in the league, but not sure we agree on where that toxicity originates

[Tate 328]

4 minutes ago, Mr_Hatter said:

The VHL isn't a business,  nor should it be. And even if it were, the league jobs would be closer to retail jobs rather than corporate, ie getting harrased by customers more often than having to deal with poor bosses. 

 

I know it's not a business, but we're talking about growth and retention.  The best way to view it is as a business, not to make money, but to sustain and grow it. 

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, Mr_Hatter said:

Fully agreed that toxicity is a huge problem in the league, but not sure we agree on where that toxicity originates

 

I don't think @Beketov is toxic.  I have a follow up to Spartan's post I'm going to post in a few momentos.  There are people who are toxic to some, and not to others.  The overall point is about culture.  

[Tate 328]

Hi @Spartan

 

I'm going to give you three recent examples of the issues I listed above, just so I can also show any other individuals who wonder about the same thing.

 

Here we go:

 

Outsiders Don’t See the Benefit

 

While it would be easier to point to a bad hire, I am going to use a good hire but where the process was done wrong by the Blue team. Wrong in the sense of the above issue, outsiders not seeing the benefit (after the hiring process).  Look at the hiring of @Frank as GM for Vancouver.  You and I both know that Frank is a top tier GM, great to his players, engaging, creates fantastic content.  Literally, a perfect person for the job.  However, when Frank was hired he quite literally leaped frogged over a whole assortment of people and got the job in about five seconds (an exaggeration but not far from the truth).  Why did this happen?  There was a time crunch and a decision had to be made quickly.  Frank was a logical choice for the job, because of the above -- but so too were many others, many of which who were never even given an opportunity to interview for the job.  Which is quite frankly (pun intended), not doing your due dilligence (a common theme in the leadership team here - see further below in a moment).

 

The above scenario is a really good way of killing morale.  You achieve your goal of securing a solid GM, yes, but you may as well of given the middle finger to all of those who applied before him. 

 

Bad Staff

 

For those who come to this thread in the future, check this out:

 

  

 

That thread outlines a perfect example of the mod team not doing their due dilligence, and also not giving a fuck about the fact that they fucked me over.  The fact that only yourself, Spartan, reached out to me after this thread speaks volumes.  I've really gone after @Baozi on this subject, because while I don't think they're a bad person I do believe they have the wrong ideals for their role and because of that, even their mistakes in hiring people are brutal holes to climb out of.  

 

Look, the mod team isn't all bad.  I don't want people to believe, that I believe that.  I can directly point at both @samx and @frescoelmo (Edit - nvm on Fresco) and say that Sam is ONE staff members that I am almost certainly dislike me, but always treats me with respect and is nice-ish to me.  I have all the time in the world for her because she tries hard to contribute positively to the community.

 

Other hires like @fishy (more below on that) - were the worst of all, and after witnessing the work that both Baozi and fishy dished out on this site the past year in suspensions and bans - y'all should be having nightmares. fishy did this site the biggest world of service by stepping down from the mod team.

 

Toxic Members

 

Like I said to Hatter, some people are toxic to some but not others- but let's just show you an example of how a member like @fishy is toxic toward me.   Let's just take a look at some recent comments from fishy in regards to me:

 

 

 

Why the comment above sucks ass:

 

fishy was directly involved in suspending me, and was a person who did not do their due dilligence.  Not only did fishy read my Mod Mentality thread, and listen to my podcast, fishy openly mocks me because of it.  This is quite literally a form of bullying. 

 

Ironic that it comes from the person who posted the current COC.  Here is another example of fishy mocking me below:

 

 

 

 

That again comes after my thread where I bared my soul and put myself out there, exposing my pain.  There is no remorse from fishy, only subtle shots and cruel comments.  But I am not the only one, fishy is also unkind to others. Here is another RECENT example:

 

 

Members like fishy do a great job of making other members like me feel like shit, but no one claps back at fishy because they're one of the elitist now (who are far too good for us commoners).  Especially, far too beyond making an apology for causing a member like me a great deal of pain in my life.  That, is what makes a toxic member. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by Tate

[Baozi 1,635]

12 hours ago, Tate said:

I was blown away when @Baozi complained to me that they had to use their, "personal time," to listen to my complaint.  Just an insane thing to say from a person in that position.  That comment alone should warrant a conversation.

 

There is a distinction between personal time (me reading/engaging in content, listening to casts etc..) and me doing my obligations like filing reports and following up on investigations and inquires.  You are correct in that all time spent here is "personal time" but context does matter in this case of me fulfilling my role duties versus what I'm not obligated to do.

 

5 hours ago, Tate said:

That thread outlines a perfect example of the mod team not doing their due dilligence, and also not giving a fuck about the fact that they fucked me over.  The fact that only yourself, Spartan, reached out to me after this thread speaks volumes.  I've really gone after @Baozi on this subject, because while I don't think they're a bad person I do believe they have the wrong ideals for their role and because of that, even their mistakes in hiring people are brutal holes to climb out of.  

 

My understanding is that we arrived at like a quasi resolution for this already in the prior, I don't really feel it is necessary to hash it out again, so I'd feel its fair to ask you refrain from tagging me on such matters unless there is something we haven't already covered.

[Tate 328]

I am not going to debate or tag Baozi for their above comment, because in reality Baozi is not helpful, and only continues to dig their own hole with their comments.

 

But for some reason that still won’t matter, even though Baozi is the Head of one of the most critical departments in this league!  
 

[ThePerfectNut 563]

W fishy

[Tate 328]

4 minutes ago, ThePerfectNut said:

W fishy

Are you saying fishy won by bullying me, and helping to cause me mental distress?

[eagle_3450 278]

15 hours ago, Tate said:

If I could personally pick an ambassador for the VHL that greets you at the door and walks you around, it would be you.  @Spartan , @Acydburn, are equally great leaders in their own right.

You forgot Shindigs, he's probably the only reason I got hooked on the VHL

[Tate 328]

1 minute ago, eagle_3450 said:

You forgot Shindigs, he's probably the only reason I got hooked on the VHL

Not forgotten, Shindigs is fantastic. 

[Spartan 4,004]

14 hours ago, Tate said:

Also, those members here who are outright toxic, get to walk around being outward POS's, and yet they still get rewarded with jobs. In fact, they're the first in line when the next one comes up. You think other people are not keenly aware of that? Only if you're ignorant

Just to clarify, this is what I asked about. Which toxic members are getting rewarded with positions?

 

In response I got a piece about Frank being a wonderful person but seemingly getting hired before others. Frank is absolutely not a toxic member. We have had plenty of questionable hires in the past but going after Frank's is probably one of the softest ones. 

 

Then you went after the mods again which I'm still not seeing anything that paints them as toxic. You're free to think that not wanting to listen to a podcast critiquing them is toxic, but then go after every commissioner ever who has asked for podcasts to be transcribed or summarized if they were given feedback or ideas for changes. It's quite easy to read media spots of critique - they're quick to get through and can be paused and rescued easily. I absolutely would not listen to podcasts unless they were relatively short or had timestamps, and if I even cared about the person recording. Otherwise I too would ask for a summary.

 

Fishy isn't even a mod now, being toxic is a perk. Mod jokes aside, if you feel anyone is harassing or bullying you, we have reporting avenues for someone else to review the case. As someone who only uses "read new content," I don't ever see status updates so I would never have known about that unless I was told.

 

So no one who is being toxic is getting hired for league jobs. That was the main component of your piece that I wanted more details about and I just don't see any evidence to support it. We've discussed this a bit in private as well so you know my stance regarding your second point about the current mods. To me, not reaching out to console you is not toxic but we'll disagree there. So yeah, I think mistakes can be made during hiring (see banned M GMs) but going after fast-tracked GMs and former moderators and how they behave after leaving the staff doesn't prove that point.

 

[Tate 328]

@Spartan

 

Im not going to debate all of your points, I just want to clarify that I was not, “going after Frank.” 
 

I am showing examples. I also write this stuff out with the intention of others reading it.

 

In my opinion I’ve demonstrated my points above, all of which is just to let people know what happened with me before I departed the league.

[Tate 328]

Just to follow up on that, my toxic people being hired comment was in a reply. Naming more names in this thread or even by DM serves me little purpose, showing examples of how these incidents happened was my best bet.

 

@Spartan

 

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by Tate

[fishy 1,757]

this is the beginning of my villain arc

[Tate 328]

1 minute ago, fishy said:

this is the beginning of my villain arc

It happened long before this. 

[fishy 1,757]

sorry this is not the beginning of my villain arc but it is also not the peak or the end. it is somewhere in between, just for everyone taking notes at home! 

[Mr_Hatter 1,603]

I'm not going to quote your individual parts as I am on mobile, but a few comments.

 

1) You don't "earn" a position by nature of being in the league for X amount of time. You earn it by being a good fit for the job. A good GM will increase retention far more than a bad GM getting a job, as that satisfies one member, a good GM will satisfy 20+ over the seasons. Your example of Frank being a bad thing for league retention is IMO ridiculous. 

 

2) You are consistently pointing to the mod team as examples of bad staff, specifically fong and fishy. While I don't always see eye to eye with every action taken by every current or former member of the mod team, it's an absurdly demanding job where they get almost no credit and all the blame. It's easy to screenshot instances of people making jokes or comments that are "toxic" in a vacuum while ignoring the hundreds of comments and bullshit that they would have to deal with and endure prior to that. Attempting to launch initiatives to improve the league's health and crackdown on toxic behavior, then being constantly slandered for it will erode anyone's goodwill. I haven't read up on the circumstances of your ban, or the podcast you linked, so I can't comment on whether or not you think it's justified, but what I will say is that you really have to work to get on the mod team's bad side. It's not just a one time thing. If you're getting called out, then you probably deserve to get called out. And if you are going to call someone a toxic person, you'll get a response in kind. 

 

[Spartan 4,004]

1 minute ago, Tate said:

Just to follow up on that, my toxic people being hired comment was in a reply. Naming more names in this thread or even by DM serves me little purpose, showing examples of how these incidents happened was my best bet.

 

@Spartan

But there are no examples that are relevant. If your only potential examples are from the past and not the present, clearly current hiring processes aren't making the same mistakes. You can't just tell the world that we've got toxic people in jobs and then not support it at all. I gave you the option to inform me in DMs because obviously I don't intend to put people on blast. As someone who hires others, I think it'd be appropriate to be informed if we're hiring presumably poor candidates.

[Tate 328]

5 minutes ago, Spartan said:

But there are no examples that are relevant. If your only potential examples are from the past and not the present, clearly current hiring processes aren't making the same mistakes. You can't just tell the world that we've got toxic people in jobs and then not support it at all. I gave you the option to inform me in DMs because obviously I don't intend to put people on blast. As someone who hires others, I think it'd be appropriate to be informed if we're hiring presumably poor candidates.

So all of the examples I gave were relevant to my original points. I can give you more examples by DM but you don’t have a problem hiring people.

 

You’re literally one of the people on this site I am NOT talking to with this thread, and yet, my most active critic.

 

This is directly against Bek, Josh, Big Al, Baozi, fishy, and a few others. Naming more names won’t change anything. The most concerning parties are the people I’ve listed.

Edited December 6, 2022 by Tate

[Spartan 4,004]

2 minutes ago, Tate said:

I can give you more examples by DM but you don’t have a problem hiring people.

If you could provide those please, we could always have some internal discussions to fix/tweak hiring processes. We've changed them over the years as public feedback asks for different hiring processes and transparency, but I would need more specifics here since none of the examples provided yet really fit the "toxic" aspect. Or even the retention portion with Frank considering he was a phenomenal M GM and has proven himself to be the right hire with his GMotY award.

[Spartan 4,004]

5 minutes ago, Tate said:

You’re literally one of the people on this site I am NOT talking to with this thread, and yet, my most active critic.

It is admittedly easier to push back on things when you're not the one being accused

[Tate 328]

1 minute ago, Spartan said:

If you could provide those please, we could always have some internal discussions to fix/tweak hiring processes. We've changed them over the years as public feedback asks for different hiring processes and transparency, but I would need more specifics here since none of the examples provided yet really fit the "toxic" aspect. Or even the retention portion with Frank considering he was a phenomenal M GM and has proven himself to be the right hire with his GMotY award.

 

Just to clarify further, I was not calling Frank toxic. I was speaking on each point I made. Frank is an excellent hire, and the right choice. My point is that the line ahead of him was much longer and people in that line didn’t even get an interview. 
 

I am showing how their actions cause a loss of morale.

 

For toxic hires I am going to point at the mod team. Fishy was a toxic, damaging hire, and is a toxic member. Baozi in my opinion is also not only bad for the role, but makes bad hires.

 

A current example of a bad hire for the mod team is @Dil. Go look at Ricers complaint for evidence, and read his history in Discord. I like Dil as a member, as a person, but not as a mod. Dil gets away with saying some horrendous stuff, far beyond what I ever did. These are individuals who cause harm in what they do and they’re key cogs in the wheel of the VHL. 
 

You’re fucking your league by having them in the roles that they are. 

 

All of this, every single bit of this, is a problem because of the people sitting at the top. It’s their responsibility to hold their staff accountable.

 

Everyone ran to fishy’s aid when they started their campaign of hate, and yet, crickets for me. It’s because I’m not valued as much. Perhaps because I was too critical 3.5 years ago, or perhaps because I’m annoying. Either way, I’ve dedicated the past 4 years of my life to this site, being a max earner, donating. My feelings should matter.

 

This is why the VHL sucks at Retention.