Debate #3 - Manziel: Flash in the Pan?

[frescoelmo 1,276]

I don't know why, but the CJ mention reminded me of those NFL Fantasy Files videos. Anyone remember these?

 

 

This one is BA

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWztdK2ZeLM

[TheLastOlympian07 2,388]

he wont set any records. but he could be a very middling QB IMO. something like a Jay Cutler maybe? 

 

edit, stats wise.

Edited January 10, 2014 by StevenStamkos91

[.sniffuM 1,741]

Read up on his combine profile.  "Lacks prototype breakaway speed, especially for his size".  That being said, 4.42 (unofficial) is good, but would you consider guys like Matt Forte, Rashard Mendenhall and Johnathan Stewart slower than him simply because of their fourties?  And that is just in the 2008 class.  It tells a pretty good story if a running back doesn't run the fourty, short of injuries.  He ran the 20-yard and 3-cone so I'd guess there was nothing wrong.  Agile is also different than speed, the former of which yeah I'd tend to agree.

 

 

He was also drafted in the second round and ended up being one of the 5 best RBs in the league at his height. I think it's safe to say he's outplayed his draft profile. You're getting too hung up on what NFL scouts thought of him at 22 rather than what he became as an NFL player.

[Guest]

He was also drafted in the second round and ended up being one of the 5 best RBs in the league at his height. I think it's safe to say he's outplayed his draft profile. You're getting too hung up on what NFL scouts thought of him at 22 rather than what he became as an NFL player.

In all fairness he really shit the bed this past year. Cost me two fantasy football leagues.

[eaglesfan036 4,602]

I think Manziel's off the field issues are being a little blown out of proportion. Yeah he's done some partying, and got paid in college but it's not like he's broken any major laws or anything. 

 

As far as his quarterbackin ability, I think he's got all the tools, but he's going to start very trigger happy and throw a lot of interceptions. Hopefully a team with a good coaching staff drafts him and gets the most out of him.

[Guest]

I think Manziel's off the field issues are being a little blown out of proportion. Yeah he's done some partying, and got paid in college but it's not like he's broken any major laws or anything. 

 

As far as his quarterbackin ability, I think he's got all the tools, but he's going to start very trigger happy and throw a lot of interceptions. Hopefully a team with a good coaching staff drafts him and gets the most out of him.

To be honest the bets place for him would be Chicago. Trestman could work wonders for the kid. Marc seems to know every QB's style and he adapts the offence around that

[eaglesfan036 4,602]

I see no reason why Chicago would draft him since they just signed Cutler. But yeah Chicago would be a decent fit for him.

Edited January 10, 2014 by eaglesfan036

[CoachReilly 688]

Agree with fresco on Rice - he's no speed back. He's smaller (height), but still has plenty of pounds, more like a MJD. DeAnthony Thomas more like a McCluster. I think that's a good comparison, although he's even thinner. Probably faster though.

[Guest]

I see no reason why Chicago would draft him since they just signed Cutler. But yeah Chicago would be a decent fit for him.

I wasn't saying they would. I was saying that's where he would fit. Also, if you think Manziel will come in and start right away anywhere, you might be overvaluing him. I think he will need to learn a bit more

[iRockstar 307]

He's going to get picked, than whored around like Tim Tebow, isn't that the cool thing to do with guys you put too much media spotlight on? 

 

Seriously thought, I like this guy. Like boubabi has said, he won't be a first rounder, but he'll be someone serviceable and very intact and keen with his instincts. 

[frescoelmo 1,276]

He was also drafted in the second round and ended up being one of the 5 best RBs in the league at his height. I think it's safe to say he's outplayed his draft profile. You're getting too hung up on what NFL scouts thought of him at 22 rather than what he became as an NFL player.

'At his height' would indicate that he's already past his prime after six years?  I don't think there's anything to get hung up on, they're physical attributes.  He didn't suddenly become Chris Johnson overnight.  He's a power back that fits Baltimore's system, it was a good fit for what he has to offer.  Second round picks are not chump change either, so how 'outplayed' do you think he has been?  Completely reasonable to say he played up to his profile...  He broke tons of records in college and was well-received coming out of it.  But a lot of 2nd round picks have great careers so I'm not sure if I understand where you're coming from.

 

To be honest the bets place for him would be Chicago. Trestman could work wonders for the kid. Marc seems to know every QB's style and he adapts the offence around that

Yes I very much agree with this, I was really pulling for him before we wasted 100 million dollars.  I could see a second-round flier on him but there's no way we use a 1st on him now considering out needs on defense.  He probably won't make it to our 14th overall anyways.

[.sniffuM 1,741]

'At his height' would indicate that he's already past his prime after six years?  I don't think there's anything to get hung up on, they're physical attributes.  He didn't suddenly become Chris Johnson overnight.  He's a power back that fits Baltimore's system, it was a good fit for what he has to offer.  Second round picks are not chump change either, so how 'outplayed' do you think he has been?  Completely reasonable to say he played up to his profile...  He broke tons of records in college and was well-received coming out of it.  But a lot of 2nd round picks have great careers so I'm not sure if I understand where you're coming from.

 

I was just saying that because he didn't play up to his prime this year, and you never know if he'll get it back. I know he didn't develop great speed, but he still turned out better than his draft profile considering his draft profile had him as not the best RB in his class, and he's arguably up there (I'd say Forte has been a little better overall when you consider his worst year isn't nearly as bad as Rice's, but he's underrated by most people). And Ray Rice is less of a power back, more just a little guy that uses his height well. If he added power to his height he'd be more like MJD at his best. But again (and this is to CR, not you Fresco) I meant Ray's been more of an agile guy than a power runner.

[boubabi 4,725]

thomas is register as a WR on bleacher report

[.sniffuM 1,741]

thomas is register as a WR on bleacher report

 

I've only seen him as an RB on WalterFootball. With only 20 receptions this year, is he really gonna come out as a WR?

[Guest]

thomas is register as a WR on bleacher report

Exactly. Going in as a RB doesn't make sense. Doesn't matter though, he will be drafted and given a position that the team wants to give him. (ex. McCluster, Cobb and to a lesser extent Hester)

[Guest]

I've only seen him as an RB on WalterFootball. With only 20 receptions this year, is he really gonna come out as a WR?

Well he has great hands. The weakness is he is too small for a RB. So regardless of coming out as a WR or RB, he won't be lining up in the backfield at that build.

[boubabi 4,725]

i don't how he can be too small for a RB but not too small for a WR.

[Guest]

i don't how he can be too small for a RB but not too small for a WR.

Okay well Thomas is 5'9 which is small, but height has never halted others guys careers such as the aforementioned Ray Rice. The only thing is that Rice is also 212 lbs. Thomas is only 176 lbs., which would mean him running up the middle would last maybe a quarter before he gets banged up. Small isn't just height boubabi, it's also weight

[boubabi 4,725]

Yeah I get that concept, but he'll not succeed (imo) against big corner who likes to play physical. Thomas is definitely not a 3rd down running back but if you can bring him on the second string RB, he can bring a whole new dimension to a team.

[Guest]

Yeah I get that concept, but he'll not succeed (imo) against big corner who likes to play physical. Thomas is definitely not a 3rd down running back but if you can bring him on the second string RB, he can bring a whole new dimension to a team.

So you are saying a 5'9 176 lbs running back can't compete as well against a physical cornerback (which the biggest in the NFL is 6'4 221 lbs and is very rare) but should go up against DT's/DE's that rarely come smaller than 6'3 260+? That logic is somewhat skewed.

[boubabi 4,725]

RB aren't only for physical player. You can get passed the trench with elite agility and elite speed. Thats what Thomas can bring. He'll not be on my HB dive formation all the time BUT, on a shotgun formation, he can do a lot of damages.

Whats my point on the CB, is they are as fast him and most of CB learned all their life how to win challenged catch (catch which can go either way). Thomas is a great receiver because he can run the ball after the catch and he played against linebackers most of the time for the coverage, so I don't think he could be a better tool for a team in a Wide receiver position. But that is just my opinion.

[Guest]

RB aren't only for physical player. You can get passed the trench with elite agility and elite speed. Thats what Thomas can bring. He'll not be on my HB dive formation all the time BUT, on a shotgun formation, he can do a lot of damages.

Whats my point on the CB, is they are as fast him and most of CB learned all their life how to win challenged catch (catch which can go either way). Thomas is a great receiver because he can run the ball after the catch and he played against linebackers most of the time for the coverage, so I don't think he could be a better tool for a team in a Wide receiver position. But that is just my opinion.

I understand where you are coming from. But in order give Thomas the ultimate chance at succeeding, they will think about his longevity first. So you might be right that the ball in his hand right after the snap is the best ploy, it doesn't realistically make sense seeing as in the trenches he will get beaten up. A team would rather have him go up on a screen pass than to be fighting for yards in between his guards. If you were a GM and Thomas was lined up as your running back, you'd be putting your team at a disadvantage. Not because his speed can't get away and his agility can't help him get yards, but because the linebackers these days are built to be bigger and but faster, thus he would get destroyed trying to run the ball in the NFL. You'll notice that if McCluster, Patterson, Austin or Jeffrey run the ball, they usually are lined up as a receiver and then run a screen or come in and run a reverse on the outside. That's what I think Thomas will do, as he can't stand the wind and grind of the RB position for his career.