Gustav

If you're an older member who cares about the VHLM, first of all, thank you! There aren't enough of you in our fine community. Second of all, if you were active anywhere between S67 and S72, you may remember an offseason tournament held between the VHLM commissioners at the time--@Banackock and @diamond_ace--called the Commissioners Cup. And, as Bana said in a status update from 2021 that I don't know how to link to, "Greens haven't had the drive to get er done since." Well, good news, VHLM: @Spartan and I are here to change that. Introducing...the revival of the Commissioners Cup, starting this offseason! The basic rules are as follows: The Commissioners Cup is a best-of-three series featuring the best of the VHLM, facing off against each other on two teams, one drafted by each VHLM Commissioner. The two teams, TEAM GUSTAV and team spartan, will consist of 12 forwards, 6 defensemen, and 2 goalers each. Any player who spent the last season in the VHLM is eligible for selection. That's it! Winners receive bragging rights, and 40 of you get to see your player in a few sims this offseason. Spartan and I will hold our draft live on stream, Wednesday night at 8:00 Eastern. Hope to see you there! @VHLM GM

First off, I'm sorry I couldn't make Lindbergh to David work out. I wanted to but it wasn't in the cards for whatever iteration of "Gustav has a plan and it's not going to work" I was in at the time. Lindbergh has been interesting to follow, though, especially from the perspective of "decent earner who isn't making many headlines"--aside from my own shitposting I think Vandelay might be headed down the same path.

I hate that I know exactly what your recreate plan is from this. Color me not surprised (and ready to write a lot about it) if lots of others follow…but it’s a smart move so props for that.

Update: well, heck, Kohler was removed from the ballot in S83! I've always just taken "he's in there somewhere" as a given and forgot about that. I guess it answers the question of "what's going to happen to him" pretty well--although it's kind of sad to see, I'm glad I can make him an official part of the Hall of Not Bad!

"I don't think it's a question of if he'll make it, it's mostly just when." -Devise "Kohler should be in" -Corco These are taken from the replies of a media spot I wrote a few years ago, in which I did mostly the same thing I've been doing with this series--take a look at someone who isn't in the VHL Hall of Fame and wonder why. Also at least twice in those years, I've seen a nice little trivia question pop up--"who has the highest career point total out of all players to never be inducted to the HoF?" And while there's always going to be someone who fits in that category, the answer has always been the same: Tyson Kohler. This actually isn't true at the time of writing, because Jerome Reinhart is now up for his second season of eligibility, but I'd imagine that he's going to be in pretty soon. As far as I'm concerned, the title is still effectively Kohler's. And I'm here to more or less rewrite that media spot, but to do it a little bit better and put it in Hall of Not Bad format. One out of an extensive line of players from the @Kendrick agency, Kohler takes us all the way back to the S48 class. He'd spend the first three seasons of his career with the Express before moving to Calgary in S51--and that was where his career would take off. For the next four seasons, Kohler would break both 50 goals and 100 points, and would spend the remainder of his career tearing it up on both Calgary and Stockholm. Twice, he put up a rating of +95, and as a pure scorer, generally did a great job of staying out of the penalty box. He'd win the Funk for his rapid improvement in S51, and lead two teams to a Victory Cup, though he'd never see a championship. He's arguably low-hanging fruit for this series, as his point total and long-standing status on the HoF ballot make him an obvious candidate, perhaps even more so than Jakab Holik...but that also means that the Hall of Not Bad wouldn't be complete without him. As usual in a HoNB article, we'll be comparing our main subject to multiple different players, both in and out of the VHL Hall of Fame. Those players are as follows: Diana Maxwell: a Hall of Fame player. From the S50 class, Maxwell started off in Stockholm but was easily best known as the heart and soul of the New York Americans over the better part of that decade. In much the same way as Kohler, Maxwell would take off and put up four consecutive 100-plus-point seasons after her rookie contract was up. In total, Maxwell would only score 4 more points than Kohler, but has a far more extensive award cabinet--two each of the Cup, the Brooks, and the Szatkowski, plus playoff MVP in S53. Pietro Maximoff: a Hall of Fame player. Another member of the "has four 100-point seasons" club, Maximoff played half a career in Riga, starting in S49, before spending the second half between three different teams. Winning the Funk a season after Kohler, that was far from the extent of it--also coming away with two championships, Maximoff would take a diverse array of individual awards during both his and Kohler's careers. Theo Axelsson: a Hall of Fame player. We'll save some of the description for later, but Axelsson would also win two championships in a career starting in Calgary and ending in Helsinki. Although a solid offensive player, Axelsson's niche would be carved out a little bit differently than the others on this list--more on that later. Essian Ravenwing: NOT a Hall of Fame player. The next-best non-HoF scorer to Kohler, Ravenwing was a longtime teammate of Maxwell, also spending S50 with Stockholm and moving to New York for long thereafter. Unexpectedly, Ravenwing is the only player on this list to win the Cup three times, and also won the Mikka Virkkunen trophy as the league's most sportsmanlike player (back when it still existed) twice. It's important to consider that each of these players is from either the S49 or the S50 class, one or two after Kohler. I don't think that's something that will make a large difference, but we'll talk about it a bit more later on. As I've touched upon in some of my other articles, the S50s were a really weird time for the league, but I don't see a clear "era shift" in these S50 players' stats as compared to Kohler's and I think it's mostly a fair comparison as far as career stats go. Oh, and I won't be shrinking the graphs this time. That's made them blurry up to this point and they weren't all that bigger to begin with. It's fair--extremely fair--to say that Kohler scored at a Hall of Fame level for the entire duration of his career. In fact, these are some of the prettiest, most "see-his-career-is-just-about-the-same"-est charts I've ever made. Kohler's and Maxwell's lines practically disappear into each other in some places, and it's safe to say that Kohler was clearly a better player than the next-best in Ravenwing--and though Ravenwing was a solid player, it's not even close. Offensively speaking, things look pretty great in terms of career totals. What about defensively? Here's why Axelsson is in, and this is the point I said I'd get to later when I brought him up. I'll point out that a player certainly doesn't need hit totals to be great (Maximoff is in purely based on offensive play, and Maxwell did do some stuff here but not enough for me to say that it made a difference), but a truly great physical forward warrants some recognition. While many players just tried to score, Axelsson did that pretty well and put up over 2,700 hits--that's averaging over 300 per season! He'd win the Boulet three times, something never done by other players in this article, and took home playoff MVP in Helsinki's S55 run. Axelsson stands out because his physical play made him great--it is the Hall of Fame, after all, and he simply made more headlines. Going off of that, everyone simply has more awards. To recap more extensively, we'll list them off: Kohler: 0 Cups 1 Individual Award (Funk) Maxwell: 2 Cups 5 Individual Awards (Kanou, 2x Szatkowski, 2x Brooks) Maximoff: 2 Cups 5 Individual Awards (Stolzschweiger, Jonsson, Brooks, Szatkowski, Funk) Axelsson: 2 Cups 4 Individual Awards (Kanou, 3x Boulet) Ravenwing: 3 Cups 2 Individual Awards (2x Virkkunen) No, this doesn't make Ravenwing better, but yes, this does mean something. The Hall of Fame isn't just a spreadsheet war. It's about recognizing the defining faces of their respective generations. Maxwell, Maximoff, and Axelsson inarguably are in that category, and we can tell that because we can look back at the players who were recognized as such in their time and notice that they were recognized repeatedly. And while this shouldn't rule Kohler out, either (more HoFers than you think never won an award), it's fair to say that Maxwell and Maximoff, who put up similar numbers to Kohler and in similar styles, deserved to get in first. And if we look at those seasons where Maxwell and Maximoff won their offensive awards, there's no room for arguing that there was just some stupid amount of luck that could have changed over one sim and that the wins could have just as easily gone to Kohler (yes, I tried to do this). Going over seasons where the players could be reasonably expected to be capped or close to capped (which I'll call 4th season or later), we get: S52: Maximoff wins Szatkowski (most points), Brooks (most goals), and Funk (most improved) Maximoff: 69 G | 70 A | 139 P Kohler: 51 G | 52 A | 103 P S54: Maxwell wins Szatkowski and Brooks Maxwell: 60 G | 64 A | 124 P Kohler: 54 G | 62 A | 116 P S55: Maxwell wins Szatkowski and Brooks Maxwell: 55 G | 61 A | 116 P Kohler: 45 G | 46 A | 91 P We can look at this in two different ways. First, Kohler during his peak seasons (his 116 in S54 was his second-highest) was easily outdueled by the other pure scorers. This is significant! On the other hand, we could just as easily adjust the criteria and do something unfair (or fair; that's a subjective statement!) like: S51: Kohler wins Funk Kohler: 58 G | 64 A | 122 P Maximoff: 38 G | 36 A | 74 P S57: Nobody wins Shit Ravenwing: 44 G | 66 A | 110 P Maxwell: 42 G | 45 A | 87 P It's possible to twist stats any way you want, really; I could make Kohler look like a Hall of Famer if I wanted, but I'd like to look at it from all angles. I think it's mostly pointless to look at individual seasons against each other (at least, in this way), but I do think there's an important takeaway to be made in that Maximoff and Maxwell just had higher peaks than Kohler. That doesn't make their career stats any better, but it did make them stand out more. Something else that's interesting is that every award here, save for the Funk, is an objective award. There's no voting committee, there's no public poll, no one ever decided that Maximoff or Maxwell should win anything in the regular season. No one won MVP, no one was voted most outstanding, and aside from a couple Maxwell seasons, only one player even tried to get voted top two-way. Now, that doesn't mean these awards didn't happen, or that they don't mean anything, but it does mean that there was some competition in these leading seasons. Leading the league in goals and points and not being recognized with an MVP or a Most Outstanding happened three times here, and in S52, both were won by another forward (Unassisted--yes, that's a player name, not a descriptor). It was just a high-scoring time in general. After all that, why don't we summarize and compare a bit? The case for Kohler: overall numbers. There's absolutely nothing to suggest, based on career totals, that Kohler shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame. He scored more than many HoF players (mine included) and his 4-point difference from Maxwell means absolutely nothing overall. He's clearly the best in his era that hasn't made it, and the difference between Kohler and Hall of Fame is far smaller than the difference between Kohler and not (Ravenwing). One could also justify his lack of top seasons (something I've seen used as a highly desired characteristic in BoG threads) by arguing that it shows more consistent play, and that a player shouldn't be penalized for playing more consistently. And that's something I'd agree with, for the record. I'd liken this to what I said about hits: putting up hits isn't necessary to be great, but a great player can become great by putting up hits. Winning awards, likewise, isn't necessary, but winning lots of awards is also something that speaks for itself. So, yes, it would have been nice if Kohler had won more awards, but it's perfectly arguable that he managed to be great without. The case against: awards mean something. And Kohler never won a Cup. He was just as good as Maxwell and Maximoff, but they were more dominant. I also wasn't able to find a HoF player from the same era that Kohler can be argued to have beaten, like I've got in my article about Bo Boeser. We'll also consider that Kohler is the third-best in his draft class, behind defenseman Black Velvet and the aforementioned Unassisted--one of the greatest ever, who was too good to even be included in this article. All this in an era known for actives few and far between? It might stack up a bit too much. There's a limited selection of players in the era to begin with, so how much is too much? Finally, as is the culmination of every one of these articles: is Tyson Kohler a Hall of Fame player? I actually think so. I don't think someone needs to win a ton of awards to be a great player. In fact, one of my other favorite perennially-on-the-ballot players (Matty Socks, who will either end up in the HoF or the HoNB someday) doesn't have a single one. And while it would make sense to say that awards mean a lot and that the others deserve to be in over Kohler, I think there's a lot of emphasis on leading outright and not enough on just being a great player in general that hurts players like Kohler. Awards for the others are a great thing, and I think they speak for themselves as bonuses, but I also think that Kohler's play as a whole at least stacks up enough to put him in the same category as the Hall of Famers, even if it's not in the "surefire" category the others were. And there's clearly a line to be drawn after Kohler, too--no one is arguing that Ravenwing should be in (sorry). The main thing that gets in the way of my vote is that there just always seems to be a more deserving candidate on the ballot, though perhaps I could see him getting in if there's a sufficient push in a weaker class. We'll see what happens--Kohler has been a very interesting story to track behind the scenes, and I'm interested in seeing how that story ends. Tyson Kohler has been on the Hall of Fame ballot for longer than I have been a VHL member. Once every handful of seasons, he gets a vote, and if I'm not mistaken (I'd check if the forum weren't acting up on me right now), there was one time he picked up two or three. Time will tell if he makes it in...or remains the answer to a trivia question. Previous HoNB articles: Volume 1: Alexander Pepper Volume 2: Shawn Glade Volume 3: Jakab Holik Volume 4: Bo Boeser Others mentioned: @scoop @OrbitingDeath @der meister @solas @hedgehog337

As the one who folded at the first sign of trouble against you guys, I feel personally attacked by this. But Vancouver has been exceptionally well-managed these past few seasons and I'm sure things will be fine going forward. Looking forward to meeting in the next playoffs

Thank you for spending a few years as my best friend in this league obviously it goes without saying that I'd love to stay in touch whether or not you choose to stay active here. I definitely get the lack of motivation part and we've had the "be as active as you actually want to be and you'll enjoy the league as much as you can in that moment" talk enough for me to know that "as active as you want to be" is currently "not" and you're making the right choice for yourself by shoving off, at least for the time being. Good luck with everything and have fun touching grass for once; I'll miss your wild idea articles and outrageous allegations against my character.

Then why not just…override the other day actions too? If the Prosecutor does their thing that should cancel out all that wouldn’t have counted otherwise.

Even so there's no way I would have picked up on that many details. Lots of respect for this. Thankfully I think your clarifications, for the most part, work in ways that make it more forum-playable. There's still definitely some stuff I'll have to work with but I think it's certainly achievable as a whole.

Two questions: -Is it actually "Player A visited Player B" and so on down the list? I interpreted this as a reverse old-Spy-sees-all-evil-visits mechanic. If so that's way more powerful than I thought. -I love you. How the fuck do you know all this?

Hi! It's been a while. On April 21, BlankMediaGames announced Town of Salem 2--the game we know and love, with lots of different rules, roles, and mechanics, and something I'd love to bring to the forum. I've been through the role list, and I'm super excited and highly optimistic that we'll be able to run a game in this format at some point...but it's going to require quite a bit of work to get there. I'm going to put up a role list here that's the extent of what I know, and I encourage you to look it over. In some cases, ToS2 mechanics are advanced beyond what I know how to support on the forum, and they'll require some modifications. In a lot of those cases, there are a good number of roles with day actions, and things that happen instantly when an action is taken during the day. I'll note right up top that my default way to handle this will most likely be "it will happen when I notice" and that I will most likely introduce an "end of day mail" system that anyone can use in a limited capacity. I'll standardize this in the future and add it to the rules, but it will most likely work like this: (after going through the list I don't think this is necessary) Oh, and also there's no Mafia faction at all in ToS2; it's just Coven That's the only thing I can think of now that applies to a bunch of roles, so let's take a look at the list for ToS 2: NO FORMATTING; BOLD ONLY: kept the same as in original ToS BOLD AND ITALICIZED: Role from original ToS with changes made in ToS2 RED: New role entirely ^^ANY OF THE ABOVE MARKED WITH 2 CARETS: Role with a day action; default modification likely to be end of day mail system "it happens when I see it" **ANY OF THE ABOVE MARKED WITH 2 ASTERISKS: Role with other modifications potentially necessary for forum play ORANGE TEXT: Gustav notes Credit to this page for just about everything that's below; this is a copy-paste of that with my own notes added. Let's get on with the role list. Keep in mind that this is an extremely rough draft and not an official set of rules yet: Town Roles Town Investigative ^^CORONER Stats: Attack: None Defense: None Unique: No Abilities: - Perform an autopsy on a dead player during the day to gain clues about who killed them. - Once an autopsy has been performed, you may check a living player each night to determine if they were the killer. - Enchanters will make your target appear to be a killer. Attributes: - You can reset your autopsy on a new corpse. I don't know what the "clues" are here and I'm interested to find out. Game-specific revision might be necessary so clues remain generic enough that our longer day phases don't make this role too powerful. INVESTIGATOR Stats: Attack: None Defense: None Unique: No Abilities: - Investigate a player's house at night to see if they have incriminating evidence. Attributes: - You will find incriminating evidence if your target attacked someone that night. - An Enchanter can make your target appear to have incriminating evidence. - An Illusionist can make your target appear to not have incriminating evidence. I believe this is simple enough that we're good to go with it. LOOKOUT Stats: Attack: None Defense: None Unique: No Abilities: - Watch one person at night to see who visits them. Attributes: - You do not visit the person you are watching. - You will not see roles that have Astral visits. The only real change seems to be that a Lookout doesn't visit their target. This isn't clear whether the "can only see 3 visits" limit for ToS Lookout is present in ToS2 but that's a minor change either way. **PSYCHIC Stats: Attack: None Defense: None Unique: No Abilities: - Target a player to have a vision at night. Attributes: - On odd nights you'll have a vision of three players, at least one will be Evil. - On even nights you'll have a vision of two players, at least one will be Good. - The player you target is included in your vision. - Illusionists can make evil players appear good, and Enchanters can have good players appear evil. Psychic is now slightly stronger (and slightly different) because of the ability to have a vision including a particular player. **If we start gaming this too hard or it becomes too powerful I might revert it back to the original ToS role. SEER Stats: Attack: None Defense: None Unique: No Abilities: - Choose two players at night to determine if they are on opposing factions. Attributes: - You may not choose yourself. - You may not choose a revealed Mayor. - An Enchanter or Illusioner can throw off your results. SHERIFF Stats: Attack: None Defense: None Unique: No Abilities: - Search one person each night for suspicious activity. Attributes: - Enchanters can make players appear suspicious. - Illusionists can make players appear innocent. - The holder of the Necronomicon will appear innocent. Seer and Sheriff seem...really really similar from a fundamental perspective and I'm not sure why both are needed...but why not both I guess? SPY Stats: Attack: None Defense: None Unique: No Abilities: - You may bug a player’s house to see what happens to them that night. - You will detect what happened to them such as being Attacked, Protected, Roleblocked, Silenced, Dreamweaved, Controlled and more. - You will also detect hidden effects such as Hex, Douse, Insanity, Enchant, Illusioned and more. Attributes: - You will not see what your target did. - Your information cannot be fooled by any other role. I love the changes to this role. A Spy no longer gets a list of evil faction visits (a mechanic I always thought was kind of stupid for the work I had to put into it) and I also really appreciate that it's able to check for hidden effects that were undetectable in OG ToS. TRACKER Stats: Attack: None Defense: None Unique: No Abilities: - Track one person each night to see who they visit. Attributes: - You will not see your target visiting if their visit is Astral. - Your information cannot be fooled by any other role. Oh look, exactly the same! I liked Tracker to begin with so I'm good with this. Town Killing **^^DEPUTY Stats: Attack: None Defense: None Unique: No Ability Uses: 1 Abilities: - You may shoot a player during the day. Attributes: - You cannot shoot on Day 1. - If the player you shoot is a Town member, you will immediately die. - Players you shoot during the day are dealt a Powerful Attack. **I think I'm going to make a Deputy FORUM MESSAGE me with the day action--the Deputy shouldn't be able to take it back and that way there's something that can't be deleted if someone changes their mind. Voting numbers will be adjusted accordingly at the end of the day--for example, if we started with 7 votes needed, and one death (or two) takes that down to 6, there will be 6 votes needed at the end of the day. I considered making it so the Deputy can't talk once the action is taken (between shooting and me noticing) in case they should be dead, but I don't have an issue with this because there's an added level of gameplay in "hey I shot you, might as well tell us what you know" on both ends of that situation. TRICKSTER Stats: Attack: None Defense: None Unique: No Ability Uses: 3 Abilities: - You may trick an attacker against you into another player. Attributes: - You can redirect multiple attacks in one night. - Any attackers you redirect will be notified of being tricked. I don't know whether I like this one yet but it's easy to moderate. Sort of a half-self-transport but only for attackers? VETERAN Stats: Attack: None* Defense: None* Unique: No Ability Uses: 3 Abilities: - Decide if you will go on Alert at night. Attributes: - You will deal a Powerful Attack to any player that visits you when on Alert. - You gain Basic Defense the night you are on Alert. - You will know how many people you shoot. VIGILANTE Stats: Attack: None* Defense: None Unique: No Ability Uses: 3 Abilities: - Choose to take justice in your own hands and shoot someone at night. Attributes: - You cannot shoot Night 1. - If you kill a Townmember, you will die at the beginning of the day. -*Players you shoot will be dealt a Basic Attack. Town Power JAILOR Stats: Attack: None* Defense: None Unique: Yes Ability Uses: 3 Abilities: - During the day, you may choose a player to Jail the following night. - You may choose to execute your prisoner, dealing an Unstoppable Attack. Attributes: - You may not Execute someone on Night 1. - You may not Jail the same player twice in a row. - You may anonymously talk with your prisoner. - Jailed players cannot be targeted by any direct ability, except a Jester's Haunt. - If you execute a Town member, you will lose the ability to Jail. A Jailor in ToS2 cannot jail the same player twice in a row, and I've been considering making that the case for ToS1 as well. That's the only difference and it's a good one. MAYOR Stats: Attack: None Defense: None Unique: Yes Abilities: - You may Reveal yourself as the Mayor of the Town during the day. Attributes: - You may not Reveal Day 1. - When Revealed, your vote counts as 3. - When Revealed, your Defense cannot be raised above None. Mayor is severely altered by the last bullet point; insta-reveals being banned are also new. I'd be interested in finding out whether a Mayor in jail has defense or if they're still unprotected. MONARCH Stats: Attack: None Defense: None Unique: Yes Ability Uses: 2 Abilities: - Choose another player to Knight at night. Attributes: - A Knighted player will permanently have an extra vote. - You will have Basic Defense while a Knighted player is alive. - You can not Knight the same player twice. I immediately question if it's possible to Knight a revealed Mayor and feel like it won't/shouldn't be. I'm also not sure how visible those extra votes are to other players and will have to learn more about how to represent this in game. **^^PROSECUTOR Stats: Attack: None Defense: None Unique: Yes Ability Uses: 2 Abilities: - You may Prosecute a player during the day. Attributes: - A Prosecuted player will be put on trial, and their verdict will be guilty. - If you Prosecute a Town member, you will die immediately. This essentially means that a Prosecutor can decide to insta-lynch someone. Like Deputy, I think this will require a FORUM message to be sent to me so the player can't put in an action and take it back before I notice. I'll have to decide what this means for timing of phase transition (will we end and go to night phase immediately? Will we keep day phase open the whole time? Will I just wait on lynching until the end of the day to keep it consistent?) but this should be doable even if it's a bit weird. Town Protective BODYGUARD Stats: Attack: None* Defense: None Unique: No Abilities: - Protect a player one direct attack each night. - Stay at home and protect yourself for the night, gaining Basic Defense. Attributes: - If your target is directly attacked, or the victim of a harmful visit, you and the visitor will fight. -*Players you fight will be dealt a Powerful Attack. - You cannot protect from passive attacks. - You can only protect yourself twice. This doesn't mention the Bodyguard dying while defending from an attack and I'd be interested in verifying whether that's the case. If it's still true, this is the same role as before, but if not, it's slightly different. CLERIC Stats: Attack: None Defense: None Unique: No Abilities: - Cast a protective barrier on a player each night, granting Powerful Defense and curing Poison. - Stay at home and cast a barrier on yourself. Attributes: - You will know if your target was attacked. - You may only cast a barrier on yourself once. This is the Doctor from ToS1 with a new name--nothing different otherwise. CRUSADER Stats: Attack: None* Defense: None Unique: No Abilities: - Protect a player each night, granting Powerful Defense. Attributes: - *You will deal a Basic Attack to one random visitor to your target that night. - You will know if your target was attacked. TRAPPER Stats: Attack: None* Defense: None Unique: No Abilities: - Place a Trap at another player's house at night, granting Powerful Defense against one attack. - Select yourself at night to Dismantle a Trap, removing it from the player. Attributes: - Traps take one day to build, and you can only have one Trap out at a time. - Traps stay on a player until they are triggered or dismantled. - *Traps are triggered when a player directly visits one, and will deal a Powerful Attack to one harmful visitor. - You will know the roles of the players that trigger your Trap. Town Support ^^**ADMIRER Stats: Attack: None Defense: None Unique: No Ability Uses: 2* Abilities: - You may propose to a player during the day. - Once you have a Lover you may Care for them at night. Attributes: - *If they accept both of your roles will be revealed to each other and you lose any remaining proposals. - If your target accepts and is a Town member you will become Lovers and you can Care for them at night. - if your Lover dies you will die. If you die, your lover will die. - Caring for a player will give them powerful defense, and remove some negative effects - If your target accepts and is a Non-Town member you will be in a Toxic Relationship and you will be silenced the following day. - You cannot propose to a player on day one. I don't like how this is worded and it raises a lot of questions about the role mechanics that I don't know many of the answers to. The "silenced" part makes me wonder if that's similar to being Blackmailed in ToS1 (which is horrible to moderate) and I'd have to come up with a way to communicate the day action. I also wonder if this is valid for one night or for the whole game--and whether I'd say "you have an admirer who has proposed" or "[specific player] has proposed to you". AMNESIAC Stats: Attack: None Defense: None Unique: No Abilities: - Remember a Townmember to inherit their role at night. Attributes: - You will automatically remember the first Town role that you see appear in the graveyard at night. This is now a Town role and I actually kind of like that in our format. I have no idea how the statements above are consistent with each other (do you have control over the role that you remember/person you choose to be or not?) and I also wonder if there are any roles (i.e. Jailor or just uniques in general) that can't be remembered. It's almost old-retri-by-proxy if given full control in both cases. RETRIBUTIONIST Stats: Attack: None Defense: None Unique: No Abilities: - Raise a dead Townmember and use their ability on another player at night. Attributes: - You will learn any notifications the Town member that you use would receive. - You only visit the Town member you use. - You are immune to roleblocks and controls. I'm assuming the same dead Townie can't be visited twice, in which case this is the same role. I'll keep an eye out to verify this. TAVERN KEEPER Stats: Attack: None Defense: None Unique: No Abilities: - Have a celebratory beverage with a player at night, roleblocking them. Attributes: - The following day, the player will have a hangover and be immune to roleblocks the following night. - If you attempt to roleblock an uncautious Serial Killer, they will attack you. - You are immune to roleblocks. This is just slightly-nerfed ToS1 Escort and I like the slight nerf because it's something I'd like to do to regular Escort--make it so a player can't be roleblocked every single night. Coven Roles Necronomicon Priority: Coven Leader Wildling Conjurer Medusa Poisoner Witch Dreamweaver Enchanter VoodooMaster HexMaster Necromancer PotionMaster Illusionist Ritualist Jinx Coven Deception **DREAMWEAVER Stats: Attack: None Defense: None Unique: Yes Abilities: - You may invade the dreams of a player and attempt to drive them Insane. Attributes: - Players will go not Insane the following night if they are visited by a Town member, or if they are a non-Town role. - Insane players cannot use any day abilities, and will randomly vote and target at night. - Insanity is permanent until you die. - With the Necronomicon, you will also deal a Basic Attack to your target. The first bullet point lightly implies that this might be a day ability (?) but the "dreams" part lightly implies that it isn't. I don't know yet. I also don't quite know yet how I'm going to do the "randomly vote" part; maybe I'll just record a random vote without saying so at the end of the day but that could throw off me being the one to make vote tracker posts and I don't really know how to make sure an Insane player doesn't just try to blend in and post votes with everyone else without hard confirming that they're Insane. It's going to require a bit of thought. ENCHANTER Stats: Attack: None Defense: None Unique: Yes Abilities: - Enchant a player with evil energy each night. - Alter your target's Role and Last Will at night. Your target will appear as what you selected if they die that night. Attributes: - Enchanted players appear suspicious to Coroners, Investigators, Psychic, and Sheriffs. Enchanted players appear as a Coven member to Seers. - Enchants last on a player until they are visited by an Investigative role. - All Coven members will see an Altered player's true Role and Last Will in the graveyard. - You may only Alter a player 2 times. - With the Necronomicon, you will also deal a Basic Attack to your target. Basically just ToS1 Forger but adapted for the Coven. Illusionist Stats: Attack: None Defense: None Unique: Yes Abilities: - You may cast an Illusion on a Coven member at night to make them appear innocent. Attributes: - Your Illusioned target will appear innocent to Investigators and Sheriffs. - Your Illusions will make Psychics see your target as good. - Your Illusioned target will appear as a Town member to Seers. - Your Illusions will make Bodyguards and Trappers not interact with your target. - With the Necronomicon, you may deal a Basic Attack to your target instead of casting an Illusion, unless they are a Coven member. I think the fourth Attribute could be interpreted a few different ways but other than that it's just anti-ToS1 Framer. MEDUSA Stats: Attack: None Defense: None Unique: Yes Ability Uses: 3 Abilities: - You may choose to Stone Gaze a player at night. Attributes: - If a player you Stone Gaze dies that night, their Role and Last Will are hidden upon death to all non-Coven members. - With the Necronomicon, you will also deal a Basic Attack to your target. Classic Medusa! Coven Killing ^^CONJUROR Stats: Attack: None* Defense: None Unique: Yes Ability Uses: 1 Abilities: - *Conjure a meteor to deal a Powerful Attack towards a player during the day. Attributes: - You cannot conjure a meteor Day 1. - With the Necronomicon, you may deal a Basic Attack to a player each night. I'd like to figure out whether the Necronomicon takes away the original ability, as well as to see if there's any better way to take care of the day action than "I'll kill the player when I see it" as I can see this messing with votes (although a smart Coven could use it to mess with votes on purpose anyway). If there are any outright unfair/unintended ways this could work on the forum, I'd appreciate hearing about that so I can draw up a response. JINX Stats: Attack: None* Defense: None Unique: Yes Abilities: - *You may choose to lie in wait at your target's house, dealing a Basic Attack to one random non-Coven visitor. Attributes: - All players visiting your target will learn your identity. - With the Necronomicon, your target is also dealt a Basic Attack. - You will inherit the Necronomicon last. This is ToS1 Ambusher but for Coven. RITUALIST Stats: Attack: None Defense: None Unique: Yes Ability Uses: 3 Abilities: - You may perform a Blood Ritual on a player at night, attempting to guess their role. Attributes: - If you guess your target's role correctly, they will be dealt an Unstoppable Attack. - If you guess your target's role incorrectly, you will be revealed as the Ritualist. - With the Necronomicon, you may deal a Basic Attack to your target instead of performing a Blood Ritual. - You can not guess Town Investigative roles. I love this role (and I appreciate the no-TI nerf). I'm curious if it pertains to a revealed Mayor because that feels kind of cheap, but it's a reason to keep the Jailor quiet in public. Coven Power COVEN LEADER Stats: Attack: Basic* Defense: None* Unique: Yes Abilities: - Choose a player to kill each night. Attributes: - You will gain the Necronomicon first. -With your deep knowledge of the Necronimicon you unlock its full potential to empower your offense or defense. -*With empowered offense you have a Powerful Attack and Roleblock immunity. -*With empowered defense you have Basic Defense. This implies that offense/defense is one OR the other and I feel like that's really weird. I also wonder if you can switch or if you just get to pick one forever. Honestly, I think I like ToS1 Coven Leader a little better, but this is still powerful. HEX MASTER Stats: Attack: None Defense: None Unique: Yes Abilities: - You may choose to Hex a player each night. Attributes: - Hexes are permanent. - When all living non-Coven members are Hexed, all Hexed players are dealt a passive Unstoppable Attack. - With the Necronomicon, you gain Astral visits and will deal a Basic Attack to your target. I don't love Hex Master to begin with and this is the same role. Maybe we'll actually see it work at some point! WITCH Stats: Attack: None Defense: None Unique: Yes Abilities: - Control someone into a player of your choice each night. Attributes: - You will know the role of the player you control. - You are immune to roleblocks. - With the Necronomicon, your target is also dealt a Basic Attack. - You cannot control the same person twice in a row. I have to decide whether the Witch joining the Coven full-time (it's a Neutral Evil role in ToS1) is cool or uncool, but it's interesting and I appreciate controls don't just disappear with the Coven Leader changes. Coven Utility NECROMANCER Stats: Attack: None Defense: None Unique: Yes Abilities: - Raise a dead player and use their ability on another player at night. Attributes: - You will learn any notifications the player that you use would receive. - With the Necronomicon, you gain the ability to summon a ghoul each night, dealing a Basic Attack to a player. POISONER Stats: Attack: None Defense: None Unique: Yes Abilities: - Have a beverage with your target at night, roleblocking them. - Poison a beverage once per game. Attributes: - The following day, the player will have a hangover and be immune to roleblocks the following night. - If you roleblock an uncautious Serial Killer, they will attack you. - A Poisoned beverage will kill the player the following night. The Poison can be cured by a Cleric or Potion Master. - You can only poison 1 beverage. - With the Necronomicon, you will also deal a Basic Attack to your target. This combines the Consort and Poisoner roles from ToS1 into one. Between this and the Tavern Keeper I'm starting to wonder if Wawa has gotten a liquor license... POTION MASTER Stats: Attack: None Defense: None Unique: Yes Abilities: - You may use a Protect or Reveal Potion on another player at night. Attributes: - Protect Potions grant the target Powerful Defense, and cure Poison. - Reveal Potions will reveal the target's role to all Coven members. - With the Necronomicon, you gain the ability to use an Attack Potion, dealing a Basic Attack to a target. Same potions, different ways to use them. This says nothing about a cooldown (you should be able to protect twice in a row or reveal twice in a row) and the attack potion isn't accessible until getting the Necronomicon. VOODOO MASTER Stats: Attack: None Defense: None Unique: Yes Abilities: - Choose a player each night to create a Voodoo Doll of, silencing them the next day. Attributes: - Your target cannot talk or whisper the next day. - You cannot silence the same player twice in a row. - With the Necronomicon, your will also deal a Basic Attack to your target. - Silenced players will not be able to vote during the Discussion phase, but can vote during the Judgement phase. This is just Coven Blackmailer. I don't know if anyone's noticed, but I've stopped using Blackmailer in ToS1 because I don't know of a good way to moderate it/one that's fair if someone misses the notification and starts talking anyway. Also, with voting being what it is on the forum, we metagame it way too much. If anyone has any ideas, let me know because I'm not sure I'd use this as is. WILDLING Stats: Attack: None Defense: None Unique: Yes Abilities: - You can see every player that the Town visits at night. Attributes: - With the Necronomicon, you may deal a Basic Attack to a player each night. ToS1 Spy for Coven is interesting and potentially super valuable if it's used right but I can also see it being useless if not used right. It's going to require a deceptive amount of thought to work with from the player end. Neutral Roles Neutral Apocalypse BAKER/FAMINE Baker Stats: Attack: None Defense: Basic Unique: Yes Abilities: - Choose a player to give bread to at night. Attributes: - If 3 living players have bread, you will transform into Famine. - Players with bread will starve slower when the Famine begins. - If there are less than 3 players alive before you transform, you will die and lose the game. Goal: Successfully give bread to 3 living players and become Famine. Famine Stats Attack: None Defense: Invincible Unique: Yes Abilities: - Choose a player each night to speed up their starvation by one day. Attributes: - The night after you transform, all players without bread will be dealt an Unstoppable Attack. - Players with bread will live an additional three days before dying of starvation. - You are immune to roleblocks and controls. Goal: Kill everyone that would oppose you. My first impression is that this role is INSANE and there's a lot I'd like to know about it. Do players know they have bread? Is there any way they can lose it? Is the arrival of Famine publicly announced or does it just happen? If a player with bread is lynched (or is killed) the day after 3 players have been given bread or dies the following night from other causes, does Famine still happen? Also, with our games having more people, is it smart to increase the number to 4 living players with bread? I think it is. BERSERKER/WAR Berserker Stats: Attack: Powerful Defense: Basic Unique: Yes Abilities: - Attack a player on Full Moon Nights. Attributes: - With each kill, your powers grow. - On your first kill, you may attack each night. - On your second kill, you will Rampage at your target's house, passively killing any visitors. - On your third kill, you will transform into War. Goal: Kill three players and become War. War Stats: Attack: Unstoppable Defense: Invincible Unique: Yes Abilities: - Kill a player each night, dealing an Unstoppable Attack. Attributes: - You will Rampage at your target's house, passively killing any visitors. Goal: Kill everyone who would oppose you. This is just a rebranded ToS1 Juggernaut. PLAGUEBEARER/PESTILENCE Plaguebearer Stats: Attack: None Defense: Basic Unique: Yes Abilities: - You may choose to infect a player with the Plague each night. Attributes: - Infections spread when a player visits or is visited by an Infected player. - You will Infect anyone that visits you. - Players will not be notified that they are Infected. - When all living players are infected, you will transform into Pestilence. Goal: Successfully infect all living players and become Pestilence. Pestilence Stats: Attack: Powerful Defense: Invincible Unique: Yes Abilities: - Rampage at a player's house each night. Attributes: - You will passively attack anyone that visits you. Goal: Kill everyone that would oppose you. Classic Pest and this is what made the "Neutral Apocalypse" label make sense. Part of me wonders if there can only be one Apocalypse role in the game but none of this has said that. SOUL COLLECTOR/DEATH Soul Collector Stats: Attack: None Defense: Basic Unique: Yes Abilities: - Watch a player each night and attempt to collect their soul. Attributes: - If the player you watch dies at night, you will collect their soul. - You will passively gain one soul from the Underworld. - When you have collected 6 souls, you will transform into Death. Goal: Successfully collect 6 souls and become Death. Death Stats: Attack: None Defense: Invincible Unique: Yes Abilities: - Bring forth the Apocalypse the following night that you transform. Attributes: - All living players will be dealt an Unstoppable Attack the night the Apocalypse occurs. - If you are lynched the day before the Apocalypse occurs, the Apocalypse will not take place and you will lose the game. Goal: Kill everyone that would oppose you. Trying to figure out the logistics of this has me wondering a lot. Is "the Apocalypse is going to happen" something that's announced at the start of the preceding day or not? Also, much like Baker/Famine, I feel like it's smart to increase the number by at least 1 (maybe 2) to account for our larger player bases. This is based on my assumed understanding that the Soul Collector gets one soul per night no matter what, and adds to that by watching players, and I'll have to confirm that. Neutral Evil DOOMSAYER Stats: Attack: None Defense: Basic Unique: No Abilities: - Select three players each night and attempt to guess their roles. Attributes: - If you correctly guess the roles of all three players, they will be dealt an Unstoppable Attack. - After successfully Dooming three players, you will leave the Town in victory. - Guessing a player's role bypass Jail. - You can not guess Town Investigative roles. Goal: Successfully Doom three players. This is another role that kind of discourages a "Town shares everything all the time no matter what" play style and even though I don't like how this role accomplishes that I see the place for it. I wonder how "leave the Town" works--is it actually leaving or just being able to stick around like ToS1 Executioner or Pirate? EXECUTIONER Stats: Attack: None Defense: Basic Unique: No Abilities: - Choose a player each night and try to get them hanged the next day. Attributes: - If you successfully hang your target, you will torment a guilty or abstaining voter, dealing an Unstoppable Attack. - If you successfully hang your target, you will walk away from the town in victory. Goal: Hang your target by any means necessary. There are things I like (and things I don't) about choosing a player every night, but it's mostly the same role either way. Same "leave the town" question applies as above. JESTER Stats: Attack: None Defense: None Unique: No Abilities: - Trick everyone into voting against you. Attributes: - If you are hanged, you will Haunt one of your guilty or abstaining voters with an Unstoppable Attack the following night. - Your Haunt bypasses Jail. - You may stay at home and protect yourself to gain Basic Defense. Goal: Get yourself hanged by any means necessary. I wonder if that third Attribute isn't meant to be there because it doesn't seem to make sense in context. Either way it's basically ToS1 Jester. PIRATE Stats: Attack: Unstoppable Defense: None Unique: Yes Abilities: - Choose a player during the day to Duel the following night. Attributes: - When a player is Dueled, they will be roleblocked and must choose one of three options in attempt to defend themselves. - If your target doesn't defend themselves, you will plunder them, dealing an Unstoppable Attack. - If your target defends themselves, you will not plunder them. - If there are not enough players alive for you to plunder, you will die of scurvy. - Once you have successfully plundered 2 players you will walk away from the town in victory. Goal: - Successfully plunder 2 players. Only change here is the fourth Attribute--which I don't think we'll ever actually run into. Neutral Killing ARSONIST Stats: Attack: Unstoppable Defense: Basic Unique: No Abilities: - Douse someone in gasoline each night. - You may Ignite at night, dealing all Doused players an Unstoppable Attack. Attributes: - You will passively Douse anyone that visits you. - If you take no action, you will attempt to clean any gasoline off yourself. Goal: Kill everyone who would oppose you. I'm very glad we've kept classic Arso! SERIAL KILLER Stats: Attack: Basic* Defense: Basic Unique: No Abilities: - Kill a player each night, dealing a Basic Attack. - You can choose to go Cautious at night, not attacking any roleblockers. - When you have gotten 2 sucessful kills in a row your Bloodlust consumes you causing your next attack to be a Powerful Rampaging Attack. Attributes: - If you are roleblocked, you will attack the roleblocker in addition to your target, having their Last Will hidden upon death. - If you are Jailed, you will attack the Jailor. - If you are Dueled, you will attack the Pirate. Goal: Kill everyone who would oppose you. I like the third Ability here and I'm curious if that stacks up (if a Bloodlust kill happens, is the next attack also Bloodlust?) but otherwise it's classic SK. SHROUD Stats: Attack: Basic Defense: Basic Unique: No Abilities: - Choose to attack or Shroud a player at night. Attributes: - When Shrouding, you will deliver an Astral Basic Attack to any players that they visit that night. - Shrouded players will appear to be a harmful visitor that night. - You will not attack anyone if the Shrouded player doesn't visit. Goal: Kill everyone who would oppose you. I immediately wonder if appearing to be a harmful visitor would cause a Trap to kill the Shrouded player, but other than that seems fairly straightforward and I like it. WEREWOLF Stats: Attack: Powerful Defense: Basic Unique: No Abilities: - Transform into a Werewolf and maul a player on Full Moon Nights, dealing a Powerful Attack. Attributes: - You will Rampage at your target's house, passively attacking any visitors. - You will passively attack any of your visitors if you are roleblocked or if you stay home on a Full Moon Night. - If you are Jailed or Dueled on a Full Moon Night, you will attack the Jailor or Pirate. Goal: Kill everyone who would oppose you. I like classic WW, and this is it! So, hi again! If you've got time to read through this, please do, and please tell me what you think (and what you'd like to see) in response to some of my questions.

Art Vandelay

Art Vandelay

And Week 3! How convenient

Week 2

I understand this. I'm not necessarily in favor of telling people to start insta-DMing purely for the sake of getting new signings either. I feel like it's borderline impossible to regulate, because we've established that it's a good thing to proactively help (and in that situation I think it's fine to mention that you're a GM--it's kind of weird if you don't). So where's the line between that and direct recruitment? I'm not sure there really is one and lines would get blurred super fast if we tried to say "these are the things you can and can't tell people." So in the sense we've talked about it, I disagree that it's an issue and I'd rather allow it than not and have a "yeah sorry I'm not allowed to answer your questions" thing come up. In another sense that I hadn't considered, though, I'm not quite for it because, with player signings happening (at least in the "pick a team" sense) right after creation, I don't want GMs flipping people away from their initial choices. That's enough for me to say no--though I wouldn't be opposed to some sort of "you can reach out after 24 hours" exception.

This is fine! I think, anyway; I'll give @Spartan the opportunity to slap me for this if for some reason it isn't. It's perfectly acceptable to welcome someone into the league server, answer questions, and get and answer DMs from a new player, and I don't see anything wrong with doing exactly that but taking the initiative to reach out yourself. What you describe is absolutely in that category and I'd personally be proud of someone who does that well. The one thing I'll warn GMs about is that if we find out other teams are being dragged in private, that will be a HUGE no. But as long as things stay positive and helpful and not entirely dependent upon the player's choice of team, I don't see why it hurts anyone.

Hi, I'll respond to this! Please know I consider feedback valuable even if I disagree with it: I agree with this. I'm also curious what you think about how much this says about the spread of players in general. The way I see it, I think it's cool that we have "I want to play for a good team", "I want to play for a bad team", and "I want to play for a team that looks cool" in the same place and I generally think that would lead to quite a bit of variance and a healthy spread in general. Objectively it's true that this isn't controllable. I disagree with some of what I've read recently that claims that some teams are just being entirely disregarded because of their logo. Mississauga, for example, has a terrible logo IMO (delete the damn text!) but they've done very well with waivers. I think within "people sometimes go for the teams they think look cool" (a true statement!) there's also "people will have different opinions on what looks cool." I think the most legitimate argument against the waiver system--and this is coming from the guy who spent about a year brute-forcing the waiver system through BOG--is that it removes the competitive aspect of waiver signings. We'd have some GMs who got by on being incredibly active in waiver threads, and even though "who tanked the hardest last season" would almost always determine the next season's champion, there was something to be said for the effort those people put in and how well it worked. This was ALSO something that led to a lot of GM burnout, though--and I think relieving that level of stress was a benefit. Could it be a fair solution to block player signings--and allow GMs to reach out--for a short (~1 hour) period of time after creation? I can see that potentially adding an element of individuality back into the system, but I also feel like that more or less just reverts things back to exactly how the old system worked. I'd love to see some competitive/skill-related element added back, but I don't see a perfect solution right now. It's worth discussing. Yes. This is the point. It is not developmental only, neither commie believes in that, and at least on my end I've never used that specific phrase. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with expressing "run your team with a focus on development" and "it's OK to do things that will lead to you winning more games" and I think both of those things can exist at the same time (I also think lots of people think they can't and I disagree with it). Good. The fact that this is no longer an obvious answer is awesome and we're OK with the amount of "bad season" you're legally able to create. If you want to do that (while still supporting your players, of course), you have every right to. If you don't want to do that, also great! Go do things the way you want; I don't think GMs would react positively to banning that. I'm fully against "full development" and I've gone off multiple times about how much I hate the mindset (to be clear, I don't think you're going this far) that it's straight-up not OK to want to win a game in the first place, let alone try. In fact, I think players deserve a competitive environment, because I think it makes the league more fun when your GM has a definite plan for improvement. I'll also note that full development the way other leagues often experience it leads to insane turnover--the EFL just moved to a draft system for this reason. I largely disagree with "hinders specific teams" on the basis of branding, but I think there's a point to be made for middle-of-the-pack/"nothing special at first glance" teams and players not signing on the basis of standing. I also fully understand that you, as someone who's demonstrated the willingness to be really active for your players, are working in a waiver system that quite arguably holds you back from using that to its full potential. I think the most fair policy change would be one that does re-introduce some personal element to waivers and allows GMs who try harder to do better--but I also don't want to create a "GM is held back because of night shifts or weird time zones that don't keep them around all the time" situation or a "people are burning out because you can't sign anyone if you're not available 24/7" one. I think the system we have is WONDERFUL in a lot of ways and improved on a lot of things from the way we used to do them, and I'd love to work to make it better--that includes finding answers to difficult questions like these.

Spartan and I actually briefly talked about pretty much this EXACT idea about 2 weeks ago. A brief rundown of why we didn't immediately put it through is this: I'd rather see this with people creating after the trade deadline and becoming members of the next VHL draft class, as those players have less time to adjust to the league as a whole on their first team. That said, we don't see all that many super hot first-gens creating after deadlines because recruitment drives tend to come closer to drafts. This likely wouldn't be very effective. We'd see more players eligible for this before the deadline, but then this doesn't cover the players who create on the shortest notice. It would also likely lead to lots of cases of GMs going for capped or close-to-capped players that don't need the "extra development" this rule would be intended to give. I do think there's room for development with this; we just have some challenges with approving it straight-up that would require a bit of thought.

Art Vandelay

Art Vandelay

As a side note, looking back on this it was certainly an insane amount of work. You had the misfortune of doing what you did in a time when everyone was complaining about recruitment team getting paid 12 per week (and iirc around the same time someone on recruitment was getting weird looks for not doing much and claiming 12 anyway) and there was an arguably bigger controversy with multiple members of VSN contributing practically nothing but claiming pay every week. You might remember my own job pay article around that time as well and lots of the responses to my survey just lumped in "recruitment" as a whole as a group that didn't deserve the pay. One response that I really appreciated was from @MubbleFubbles, who pointed out that there was a lot of variation between what different members of recruitment actually ended up doing...which is something that I'm assuming the audit missed (I somehow don't know if I ever saw the audit? I feel like I would have but I at least heard about it). I think it could be really interesting if certain groups were able to designate specific projects for extra pay on a sort of work-on-commission basis. Rookie graphics certainly seem like a viable option for that and VSN currently arguably has something similar where (I think, or at least I hope) writers can't claim the pay if they aren't writing.

When I joined I looked at the PT requirements and thought "500 words? Well screw that, that's too much work." Fast forward a month...yeah, no comment. I'll say that trying to get good at graphics was actually a major time suck for a while, but still fun.

The EFL has (had? looks like it's no longer active) a Discord bot that would give you virtual "cards" of current EFL players by playing around with it in some channel. I never used it myself but someone pulled some apparently ultra-rare version of my player once so that was cool. I think it's a nice idea but would require a lot of work.

Kolur Bjoernsson week