My thoughts on the E as Recruitment, M GM and a Semi New Player

[Shindigs 1,771]

Just now, Horcrux said:

or ask your GM to not trade you...most would listen.

Yeah, but that's the thing. If they don't they just lose out on potential picks for next year. The fact that I can't stay another year makes being traded probably the best thing I can do for the team long term. Which feels pretty backwards. But that's just kinda how it is. The season is still young enough that we can make a miracle comeback though (as long as you keep soft-tanking in Halifax).

[Moon 564]

8 hours ago, Beketov said:

Then I would love to see either how you would fix it or replace it. If the answer is just “go back to what we had” then every VHL and VHLM team is full and we have active players who have literally nowhere to sign, I would argue that’s worse for retention.

I think upping the M cap or figuring out a way to make the E teams like Affiliates for VHL teams would be a good way to go as if we had the affiliate teams VHL teams could drop players down to the VHLE for cap space and or if they arent playing well. I just really think something needs to change as i think the E has potential but currently its just messing with the M and causing members to get angry.

[Beketov 8,792]

6 minutes ago, Moon said:

I think upping the M cap or figuring out a way to make the E teams like Affiliates for VHL teams would be a good way to go as if we had the affiliate teams VHL teams could drop players down to the VHLE for cap space and or if they arent playing well. I just really think something needs to change as i think the E has potential but currently its just messing with the M and causing members to get angry.

The M cap was higher and the league was full. Go higher than that and it remains far too full to bring in anyone new without massive expansion. Problem there is that it isn't sustainable because if we have a bad recruiting run then we have way more teams to fill and no players.

 

As for affiliation, it was discussed but there's a few main problems: First that we would need to run the same amount of teams as the VHL and frankly there aren't nearly enough players in that TPE bracket to remotely fill 16 teams. On top of that the idea that it's supposed to be competitive is completely killed if a VHL team just decides to up and steal half your roster. We used to run the VHLM as affiliated and I can tell you that it turns into an absolute nightmare that isn't worth it even if we could have the amount of teams we need.

 

Also neither of those would fix the VHL being over-crowded. I guess maybe affiliation could in theory but only if your goal of retention involves getting people "to the VHL" only to have them immediately sent back down anyway.

 

I'm not trying to be rude, I just don't see how either of those scenarios works out better.

[Moon 564]

1 minute ago, Beketov said:

As for affiliation, it was discussed but there's a few main problems: First that we would need to run the same amount of teams as the VHL

Why would you need to run the same amount of teams? Just have teams share? Im also trying not to be rude or anything im just trying to give my thoughts to save the league cause more and more people are leaving and or going IA when they are in the E

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Moon

[Beketov 8,792]

2 minutes ago, Moon said:

Why would you need to run the same amount of teams? Just have teams share? Im also trying not to be rude or anything im just trying to give my thoughts to save the league cause more and more people are leaving and or going IA when they are in the E

 

Perhaps because established members keep telling them it's dumb and they wouldn't care about it? I'd argue being stuck on a third line getting 8 minutes a game would drive them away just as much (it does, we've seen it). Additionally even if it was affiliated it would still exist so if the argument is "VHLE = people leaving" then how exactly does that change anything.

 

To answer your question though because it was also brought up in initial discussions: Sharing creates even more complications for the VHLE GM's because now they are being told "hey, you aren't a developmental league, go compete" but have 2 different VHL teams that can steal their players. Alternatively maybe they wouldn't, historically call ups from the VHLM were very low. But in that case it's affiliated by name only and absolutely nothing changes compared to what we have now. Basically it adds a lot of complication but IMO doesn't change or fix anything.

[Lemorse7 916]

I think the sample of the E is still to fresh to really judge it. It is mostly inactive players at the moment, but with more new gen or even recreate who will join the E, the league can only grow and if the problem* continue the Commish will try to find a solution. 

 

* I personally don't see a problem with it and I don't think we can point the finger's and say that is the problem.   

[Horcrux 322]

33 minutes ago, Moon said:

Why would you need to run the same amount of teams? Just have teams share? Im also trying not to be rude or anything im just trying to give my thoughts to save the league cause more and more people are leaving and or going IA when they are in the E

 

can you back that up with evidence?

[bigAL 2,176]

1 hour ago, Shindigs said:

Okay, so I can give something on the side of @Moon at least. As I think it was yesterday or the day before that I asked (as a 1st gen) without knowing anything about this "Anti-E" bias, if it was possible to just stop applying points at 199 to stay in the M for one more season. My reason for it would have been very simple: Loyalty. Miami gave me a shot at basically unlimited minutes and any and all opportunities my player could ever ask for. But for the vast majority of this season, the fact of the matter is that as a 1st gen I won't be able to give them the kind of performance I want to. If I just max earn a full season then end up in the E the next season it will feel like I didn't "pay my dues" to my first team. Which doesn't really sit right with me personally. But it quickly became apparently that doing so and just hoarding TPE wasn't allowed. Which basically means that any ambitious 1st gen on a non-contending team will just be trade bait at some point in their first season. Uprooting them right as they start making connections in the locker room, which honestly kinda sucks.

I totally get, I really do. First gens build a connection with their first GM and first team. You always remember your first, they say. Your first LR is your entire experience and impression of the VHL. The M GMs are fantastic at their jobs, and that shows when players don’t want to leave. I regretted going up to the VHL because friggin DLamb stayed down the extra season, came up at 400 TPE, and won Rookie of the Year. Now everyone will get to the bigs at 400, which is nice, but I did have the same moral dilemma you’re having right now. 
 

Unfortunately, the structure of the league just isn’t built for the career minor leaguer. We need people to graduate the M when they’re ready to make space for new recruits and recreates. And then we need them to graduate the E to make space for the slower earners, inactives, or next-season-VHLers. 
 

I dunno how well versed you are in sim leagues, but I am determined that no one should ever stop earning TPE. In the EFL, my GM told me to just stop once I got to 199 so I wouldn’t go over and have to move up. I completely went inactive at that point. Sitting and waiting in the LR sounds like fun, but it’s really not sustainable from a retention standpoint. 
 

I know it’s all personal choice, and if you choose to stop at 199 I can’t stop you, and I can tell you it’s still a lot of fun to be a loyal VHL player (or a cut throat mercenary going to free agency at every chance) but you don’t have to believe me. Just do what’s best for you, and please for the love of Simon T, don’t ever turn down an opportunity for TPE. 

[Moon 564]

26 minutes ago, Horcrux said:

can you back that up with evidence?

90% of E LR's are dead, Had to save someone from leaving the VHL cause they thought they were leaving the VHLM to the E. So i dont have evidence right now but could have some quickly

[Horcrux 322]

Just now, Moon said:

90% of E LR's are dead, Had to save someone from leaving the VHL cause they thought they were leaving the VHLM to the E. So i dont have evidence right now but could have some quickly

I just asking becuase when you present stuff like this, #'s and evidence helps support your stance and statement is all. 

 

[Moon 564]

Just now, Horcrux said:

I just asking becuase when you present stuff like this, #'s and evidence helps support your stance and statement is all. 

 

Yeah.

[Spartan 4,150]

2 minutes ago, Moon said:

90% of E LR's are dead, Had to save someone from leaving the VHL cause they thought they were leaving the VHLM to the E. So i dont have evidence right now but could have some quickly

Out of love and friendship with Spence, he's not the same as you and I. He loves the VHLM, he loves player development, wanted to be an M GM since he joined the league, and I think even has personal irl ties to development hockey leagues. Him being that passionate about playing in the M (and he wasn't even going up to the E) is not the standard to set when treating the average member's development through the VHL league structure. 

[Shindigs 1,771]

7 minutes ago, bigAL said:

Just do what’s best for you, and please for the love of Simon T, don’t ever turn down an opportunity for TPE. 

Yeah, I can't just not earn. I just misunderstood the cutoff as 199 TPA, not TPE. I though you could basically just sit there and still spam tasks and accrue unspent for a season. I have to max earn. That's just how I am. So that in itself means that I am moving on no matter what, I just wish there was a way not to. Without deliberately stunting your growth.

[Spartan 4,150]

9 minutes ago, Moon said:

90% of E LR's are dead

It's also my personal opinion that the quality of a locker room depends on the GM and the culture in place, as well as the people brought in. None of my locker rooms have been purely players, but also guests/friends/alumni. I can go off on a whole other tangent about how the main VHL server has negatively impacted the amount of time the most active members spend in LR'S, but I remain firmly of the opinion that dead LR's are solved with a commitment from the team staff to bring in active voices, even if they are not members of the team.

[Horcrux 322]

2 minutes ago, Spartan said:

It's also my personal opinion that the quality of a locker room depends on the GM and the culture in place, as well as the people brought in. None of my locker rooms have been purely players, but also guests/friends/alumni. I can go off on a whole other tangent about how the main VHL server has negatively impacted the amount of time the most active members spend in LR'S, but I remain firmly of the opinion that dead LR's are solved with a commitment from the team staff to bring in active voices, even if they are not members of the team.

that and 100% of teams have locked Player only chat areas. 

most of the time I notices players talk in their and not the "general" room that has everyone in it. 

[Spartan 4,150]

Just now, Horcrux said:

that and 100% of teams have locked Player only chat areas. 

most of the time I notices players talk in their and not the "general" room that has everyone in it. 

Well, anyone in Moscow or anyone who was on LVA when I GM'd there can attest that most of our general conversations happen in our public chat. Any discussions specific to our team, performance or strats go in our private channel. I'm sort of putting myself on a weird pedestal here, but mainly because it is how I've set servers up and it seems to have worked so far, and the LR's have been active. It's up to the GM of a team to set that kind of system up and commit to it, or find something else they like that works. If a GM doesn't take LR activity seriously, why would their players?

[AJW 1,975]

2 hours ago, Shindigs said:

Also there's a risk I may end up in Västerås, and that would be brutal for IRL reasons. I swear to god Västerås, if you draft me I'm going to have to get on the train and probably be late (because your train station does absolutely suck) but eventually arrive and leave a harshly worded letter at your HQ. There shall be "dålig stämning" for days I tell you!

 

@rjfryman  don't mess this up 

[Shindigs 1,771]

Just now, ajwllmsn said:

 

@rjfryman  don't mess this up 

Crap, I didn't realize he was in charge over there. Why would such a cool dude who tracks stats that are quite important to be me in charge of such an absolute tire fire like Västerås? That's just unfair!

[AJW 1,975]

I like the E! I'm a first gen myself who started in Ottawa right after the S78 draft. I got my feet wet really quickly and started max earning every week. By the time of my S79 VHL draft I could've gotten called up but I wanted to stay down because I didn't want my player to be shit in the VHL. Being a 250 TPE player against 700+ TPE players would leave me with no points and no ice time too. I honestly wish the E was around when I started so my player could have competed in it instead of being the best in the M and banking TPE for months.

 

Another reason I like the E is that it filters out clickers from the VHL, leaving that league with like 90% active members. My uncle and cousins are currently in the VHLE on Cologne. They said they love it there as they can actually compete and aren't forced to earn maxed TPE to do it (they're welfare clickers). Even though they aren't super active, they're happy they have a league to play in where they can do well and not have to be on everyday, just having fun and checking in every now and then.

[Lemorse7 916]

44 minutes ago, ajwllmsn said:

My uncle and cousins are currently in the VHLE on Cologne

Teammates Woooooh

[Molholt 2,185]

Not that I'm really a top member or anything here, but with the addition of the VHLE I have no intention of recreating when Tretiak is retired.

 

@JardyB10 and @Beketov hit on why in their defense of the system - the additional year is a good addition if it's accessible to all. The problem is that it's the "solution" to the E for some users and just straight up an additional season of VHL pro eligibility for some - meaning that they get an extra year now than they used to, while anyone trapped in the VHLE gets one less now. 

 

I don't max earn on every opportunity here now, and it's not like one member is gonna be missed either, but I'm firmly in the category of wanting to be on equal pro level footing with everyone else because I do get nerdy about things like career stats, records, historical data, etc. - and I'm not too keen to be in the VHL when I'll always have one less season of max eligibility than others. 

 

If I were still in the category of people who could get that extra season of pro eligibility, I might feel different, but that doesn't make it "right" or "good" either for most of the members, especially since the provided number is something like 95% of members will feel that way - that they have an unattainable portion of their career that the "elite" or as Jardy called them, meganerds, get to have.

[JardyB10 4,839]

15 minutes ago, Molholt said:

I don't max earn on every opportunity here now, and it's not like one member is gonna be missed either, but I'm firmly in the category of wanting to be on equal pro level footing with everyone else because I do get nerdy about things like career stats, records, historical data, etc. - and I'm not too keen to be in the VHL when I'll always have one less season of max eligibility than others. 

 

If I were still in the category of people who could get that extra season of pro eligibility, I might feel different, but that doesn't make it "right" or "good" either for most of the members, especially since the provided number is something like 95% of members will feel that way - that they have an unattainable portion of their career that the "elite" or as Jardy called them, meganerds, get to have.

Don't you get auto-12s though? 

[Molholt 2,185]

1 minute ago, JardyB10 said:

Don't you get auto-12s though? 

 

Yeah, which I don't believe is enough on it's own to bypass the VHLE (based on the last time I saw someone do a breakdown of it). I don't do any of the extra opportunities/uncapped stuff. 

 

If strictly getting 12/week is enough to bypass the VHLE, then it's both acceptable and also mostly useless at the same time  I don't think that is the case without any extra opportunities/purchases.

[JardyB10 4,839]

2 minutes ago, Molholt said:

 

Yeah, which I don't believe is enough on it's own to bypass the VHLE (based on the last time I saw someone do a breakdown of it). I don't do any of the extra opportunities/uncapped stuff. 

 

If strictly getting 12/week is enough to bypass the VHLE, then it's both acceptable and also mostly useless at the same time  I don't think that is the case without any extra opportunities/purchases.

Fair enough. I will shout loudly to make mid-season call-ups a thing though, if it makes you feel better.

[Molholt 2,185]

Just now, JardyB10 said:

Fair enough. I will shout loudly to make mid-season call-ups a thing though, if it makes you feel better.

 

I'm stubborn enough to be mad about 36 games too