Is building the meta trolling?

[jRuutu 2,467]

YES

When we look at the CoC, section 1.5 mentions ''excessive/malicious trolling'' as something that is not tolerated. If I understood the rulebook correctly, trolling could be baiting or unprovoked antagonizing comments, unnecessary targeting of a specific member, and using personal attacks during a friendly debate for no reason. All seems pretty straightforward, but what about the sim and game? Using a questionable player name fits into trolling. What about the meta build? Is building a meta build trolling?

 

We have played over 25 games of season 82. Plenty of hockey is left, but still, a sizeable chunk is in the past already. Before the season started many were hoping Vancouver would not do what they did in the previous seasons. The Wolves have been a dominant team for over two seasons now. Unfortunately, Vancouver has continued their winning ways in season 82 as well. The Wolves have won 22 games out of 26 so far. 

 

Based on this statement alone, we can find clear evidence of excessive and malicious trolling. Vancouver Wolves have been using the same method for over two seasons now. The trolling is malicious as the rest of the league has started to speculate if it's ok to cheat. The integrity of the league is challenged. An increasing number of teams are starting to look like Vancouver Wolves, and there is no reason to believe the trend is stopping. As a result, the league leaders are forced to work on changes to prevent the meta build from being used. Not only is building a meta disruptive but it can also be viewed as destructive. 

 

 

The meta build was put in systematic use unprovoked. Nobody asked Vancouver Wolves to do it. Nobody forced Vancouver Wolves into a corner. Still, Vancouver Wolves decided to come in and started actively doing something that will greatly annoy a large number of users. It's baiting. Vancouver Wolves are baiting users to voice their annoyance and anger. That is textbook trolling. The worst part of baiting is encouraging others to join creating further chaos and anger. That is what is happening in VHL right now.

 

As pointed out, other teams and users outside of Vancouver Wolves are also using the meta build. Due to the vast publicity meta build has received, the odds of someone unknowingly building the meta are extremely small. Arguments about limiting users' ability to build a certain way can be disregarded as propaganda spread by the meta users. You know what you are doing. You are breaking the rules. Anyone who is building the meta is actively taking part in trolling. Anyone who is building the meta build should be punished for trolling. The rules are being broken. 

 

Instead of worrying about the general chat in Discord, and how welcoming or safe that space is, how about turning your attention towards the league as a whole? Users and teams using the meta build is a textbook example of trolling. The trolls can keep on going because you allow them.

 

[rory 1,916]

dan dan is the meta.

[Daniel Janser 2,185]

I mean one could argue that the below post is a troll/bait attempt...

 

 

[jRuutu 2,467]

1 hour ago, rory said:

dan dan is the meta.

More like ban ban

 

1 hour ago, Daniel Janser said:

I mean one could argue that the below post is a troll/bait attempt...

 

 

The evidence keeps on piling up

[Nykonax 1,564]

5 hours ago, Daniel Janser said:

I mean one could argue that the below post is a troll/bait attempt...

 

 

u cant be serious LOL

[Daniel Janser 2,185]

10 minutes ago, Nykonax said:

u cant be serious LOL

Then pray tell me what you meant to achieve with said post? If you tried to get a more or less toxic reaction by pouring oil into the fire that is the meta-topic, then yes, I am serious. 

[Hogan 1,424]

32 minutes ago, Nykonax said:

u cant be serious LOL

please do not troll

 

[der meister 3,197]

I don't know that it's trolling, but the lack of originality is disappointing. I just wrote my .com piece and it morphed into looking at VHLM builds. They're pretty boring. 

[Daniel Janser 2,185]

17 minutes ago, der meister said:

I don't know that it's trolling, but the lack of originality is disappointing. I just wrote my .com piece and it morphed into looking at VHLM builds. They're pretty boring. 

yeah a lot of skaters look the same whether Winger, Center or Defender it is the big four all around (Centers adding FO at a later stage)

[der meister 3,197]

14 minutes ago, Daniel Janser said:

yeah a lot of skaters look the same whether Winger, Center or Defender it is the big four all around (Centers adding FO at a later stage)

 

Maybe the VHL needs player types with skill caps

[Beketov 9,034]

5 minutes ago, der meister said:

 

Maybe the VHL needs player types with skill caps

That would just end up with everyone picking the most “meta” build. Having choices of “prebuilts” doesn’t automatically mean there’s more variation than allowing people whatever they want. I would argue it‘a more likely you end up with even less diversity.

[der meister 3,197]

6 minutes ago, Beketov said:

That would just end up with everyone picking the most “meta” build. Having choices of “prebuilts” doesn’t automatically mean there’s more variation than allowing people whatever they want. I would argue it‘a more likely you end up with even less diversity.

 

Snipers capped at 90 scoring, 80 puck handling, 60 defense? Maybe having a legit weakness in a critical skill will lead to teams looking for balance across the lineup. Just spitballing on numbers, but if there are 4 main skills and the different player types have at least 1 huge weakness in a critical area, then maybe there's more interest in variety. 

 

At this point I'm probably talking about a new league with this concept though.

[Spartan 4,414]

1 minute ago, der meister said:

 

Snipers capped at 90 scoring, 80 puck handling, 60 defense? Maybe having a legit weakness in a critical skill will lead to teams looking for balance across the lineup. Just spitballing on numbers, but if there are 4 main skills and the different player types have at least 1 huge weakness in a critical area, then maybe there's more interest in variety. 

 

At this point I'm probably talking about a new league with this concept though.

You're not going beyond the realms of possibility, it's something we have discussed and will likely revisit as we explore options. I just don't know if we have an engine that would allow for us to severely cripple one or two core attributes that drives player success. Like low DF means you will not be very good. The fear is that the most "meta" archetype would be discovered again quickly and we'd be back to everyone creating and building the same way.

[der meister 3,197]

4 minutes ago, Spartan said:

You're not going beyond the realms of possibility, it's something we have discussed and will likely revisit as we explore options. I just don't know if we have an engine that would allow for us to severely cripple one or two core attributes that drives player success. Like low DF means you will not be very good. The fear is that the most "meta" archetype would be discovered again quickly and we'd be back to everyone creating and building the same way.

 

3 seasons of test Sims could help fine tune that. Balanced team v. All type 1 v. All type 2, etc.

[Spartan 4,414]

Just now, der meister said:

 

3 seasons of test Sims could help fine tune that. Balanced team v. All type 1 v. All type 2, etc.

We've been running a decent amount of test sims, but we're also limited by who owns STHS, and has the time to test sim for us. We've been test simming some other areas for what we're hoping can be a permanent solution and would allow more build flexibility than the limitations archetypes would provide.

[NSG 498]

On 2/14/2022 at 2:56 AM, jRuutu said:

We have played over 25 games of season 82. Plenty of hockey is left, but still, a sizeable chunk is in the past already. Before the season started many were hoping Vancouver would not do what they did in the previous seasons. The Wolves have been a dominant team for over two seasons now. Unfortunately, Vancouver has continued their winning ways in season 82 as well. The Wolves have won 22 games out of 26 so far. 

 

Based on this statement alone, we can find clear evidence of excessive and malicious trolling.

From “this statement alone”, all you can really figure out is that we have played over 25 games in Season 82 and that Vancouver has won 22 of their 26 games

 

On 2/14/2022 at 2:56 AM, jRuutu said:

Vancouver Wolves have been using the same method for over two seasons now. The trolling is malicious as the rest of the league has started to speculate if it's ok to cheat. The integrity of the league is challenged. An increasing number of teams are starting to look like Vancouver Wolves, and there is no reason to believe the trend is stopping. As a result, the league leaders are forced to work on changes to prevent the meta build from being used. Not only is building a meta disruptive but it can also be viewed as destructive. 

 

You mention that apparently people think it’s OK to cheat, but Vancouver is not cheating. When there is something that is OP, who are you (or anybody) to expect that it will not be taken advantage of when left unregulated? This is how humans work. Of course there’s no reason to believe that the trend is stopping, because, again, not how human nature works. The GMs want rings, and the players want stats and rings, and meta satisfies all of these wants. As I saw in the SBA with Freak Point Guards, if you want to get people to stop doing something OP, you have to prohibit it.

 

On 2/14/2022 at 2:56 AM, jRuutu said:

The meta build was put in systematic use unprovoked. Nobody asked Vancouver Wolves to do it. Nobody forced Vancouver Wolves into a corner. Still, Vancouver Wolves decided to come in and started actively doing something that will greatly annoy a large number of users. It's baiting. Vancouver Wolves are baiting users to voice their annoyance and anger. That is textbook trolling. The worst part of baiting is encouraging others to join creating further chaos and anger. That is what is happening in VHL right now.

 

As pointed out, other teams and users outside of Vancouver Wolves are also using the meta build. Due to the vast publicity meta build has received, the odds of someone unknowingly building the meta are extremely small. Arguments about limiting users' ability to build a certain way can be disregarded as propaganda spread by the meta users. You know what you are doing. You are breaking the rules. Anyone who is building the meta is actively taking part in trolling. Anyone who is building the meta build should be punished for trolling. The rules are being broken. 

 

Instead of worrying about the general chat in Discord, and how welcoming or safe that space is, how about turning your attention towards the league as a whole? Users and teams using the meta build is a textbook example of trolling. The trolls can keep on going because you allow them.

 

Again, I don’t really understand how our legally allowed success is trolling, and how are we beating people to voice their annoyance and anger? Have we legally won a socially unacceptable amount of games? And again, nobody should be expected to stop using OP tactics because “the users told them so”. No, there has to be a rule about it to get anyone to stop meta.

 

Now, I honestly don’t agree with OP tactics. I’m fine with getting rid of meta and doing capped attribute stuff. This is the only league I’ve been in where nothing is capped. But until there is a physical rule change requiring no meta, expect nothing to change. 
 

I’m willing to discuss this over PMs with you, because I’d like to try and fathom this opinion in a more personal way, but I think we may have some fundamental disagreements on these things.

 

On 2/14/2022 at 3:27 AM, Daniel Janser said:

I mean one could argue that the below post is a troll/bait attempt...

 

 

I mean one could ague that the above post is sarcasm…

Edited February 15, 2022 by NSG

[Daniel Janser 2,185]

12 minutes ago, NSG said:

I mean one could ague that the above post is sarcasm…

As long as there is no rule against sarcasm, that is perfectly fine, this is how humans work. There is a rule against baiting/trolling though...

[NSG 498]

2 minutes ago, Daniel Janser said:

As long as there is no rule against sarcasm, that is perfectly fine, this is how humans work. There is a rule against baiting/trolling though...

Yeah. Honestly that comment is very easy to interpret as either so I totally understand how you could think “trolling”, me and my sarcastic 14 yo brain sees that and thinks “sarcasm”. 

[jRuutu 2,467]

11 hours ago, NSG said:

From “this statement alone”, all you can really figure out is that we have played over 25 games in Season 82 and that Vancouver has won 22 of their 26 games

 

You mention that apparently people think it’s OK to cheat, but Vancouver is not cheating. When there is something that is OP, who are you (or anybody) to expect that it will not be taken advantage of when left unregulated? This is how humans work. Of course there’s no reason to believe that the trend is stopping, because, again, not how human nature works. The GMs want rings, and the players want stats and rings, and meta satisfies all of these wants. As I saw in the SBA with Freak Point Guards, if you want to get people to stop doing something OP, you have to prohibit it.

 

Again, I don’t really understand how our legally allowed success is trolling, and how are we beating people to voice their annoyance and anger? Have we legally won a socially unacceptable amount of games? And again, nobody should be expected to stop using OP tactics because “the users told them so”. No, there has to be a rule about it to get anyone to stop meta.

 

Now, I honestly don’t agree with OP tactics. I’m fine with getting rid of meta and doing capped attribute stuff. This is the only league I’ve been in where nothing is capped. But until there is a physical rule change requiring no meta, expect nothing to change. 
 

I’m willing to discuss this over PMs with you, because I’d like to try and fathom this opinion in a more personal way, but I think we may have some fundamental disagreements on these things.

 

I mean one could ague that the above post is sarcasm…

Using a meta build and ''meta team'' to get those rings and stats is cheap. You are not competing in a fair way. You are not putting together a honest team. You are competing by doing as little as possible. You are competing by exploiting something. That is cheap. Your team and anybody else doing it or thinking about doing it are losers. You are losers. There is nothing wrong with being a loser, but your cups and stats mean very little.

 

You are just above simmers manually writing 60+60 to every players stats in the index.  Simmers could give you the cup before season started. Still you celebrate like you did something great or you are somehow now part of VHL history. You think you are like teams that at least tried to compete in a honest and fair away.  You are losers.  Worst part of it is that you think it's somehow ok to compete using cheap tactics. You invite others to do the same and they are doing it. I can't even imagine how anybody finds meta vs meta games interesting. That is where we are slowly heading. You are competing who's red circle is the most red. Who cares?  ''Hey, let's build the exact same player and see which team is the best'' - every meta player.

 

You do point tasks, you chat in locker rooms, you are part of the community, you do all these things just to build a meta. Can you imagine? All that effort to exploit and cheat. Oh wait a minute, you don't put in the effort because you are losers. You cut corners and think you should be applauded for it.

 

 

Trolling in this article is a little cute thought about meta build being something that most would see as ''annoying'' or something they would prefer not to see. So when Vancouver players and anyone else builds towards the meta, you could technically say it's trolling as the effects of building meta build brings out similar results than trolling in traditional sense. Some people might be upset and annoyed = trolling.

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by jRuutu

[diacope 1,696]

A player ok.. A team no

 

If it's basic human instinct to be a cheater why don't you have the basic human instincts to be a fun person and respectful to be around? Thia isn't about life.. It's about having a good time

 

Kitson really feeding the jaha over in Vancouver, 100% CBD

Edited February 16, 2022 by Zack

[NSG 498]

9 hours ago, jRuutu said:

Using a meta build and ''meta team'' to get those rings and stats is cheap. You are not competing in a fair way. You are not putting together a honest team. You are competing by doing as little as possible. You are competing by exploiting something. That is cheap. Your team and anybody else doing it or thinking about doing it are losers. You are losers. There is nothing wrong with being a loser, but your cups and stats mean very little.

 

You are just above simmers manually writing 60+60 to every players stats in the index.  Simmers could give you the cup before season started. Still you celebrate like you did something great or you are somehow now part of VHL history. You think you are like teams that at least tried to compete in a honest and fair away.  You are losers.  Worst part of it is that you think it's somehow ok to compete using cheap tactics. You invite others to do the same and they are doing it. I can't even imagine how anybody finds meta vs meta games interesting. That is where we are slowly heading. You are competing who's red circle is the most red. Who cares?  ''Hey, let's build the exact same player and see which team is the best'' - every meta player.

 

You do point tasks, you chat in locker rooms, you are part of the community, you do all these things just to build a meta. Can you imagine? All that effort to exploit and cheat. Oh wait a minute, you don't put in the effort because you are losers. You cut corners and think you should be applauded for it.

 

 

Trolling in this article is a little cute thought about meta build being something that most would see as ''annoying'' or something they would prefer not to see. So when Vancouver players and anyone else builds towards the meta, you could technically say it's trolling as the effects of building meta build brings out similar results than trolling in traditional sense. Some people might be upset and annoyed = trolling.

 

Maybe I misphrased my last comment so let me put it shorter

 

You say that we’re not “fair and honest”, I say “legal”. These are not the same. I never claimed that the team that I play for is winning fairly and honestly, nor do I think that I am a part of VHL history or great. If I were to leave the VHL today and never come back, I think there’d be about 3 people who’d remember me and know of my existence 5 years from now. Also, I never built meta knowingly, Nyko told me to build meta. I had no idea what meta was then and didn’t know at all until mid last-season. I never knowingly cheated/exploited the system, it was just that me, who never checks VHL Discord/forum, was being told by a trusted authority to do so in Season 77. 
 

Ultimately, I guess my point was way simpler than the 500-so words I wrote in the last quote: I don’t think that meta is fair or honest, I don’t think it’s quite trolling, and I think that the BOG would need to make a rule to stop meta.

 

2 hours ago, Zack said:

A player ok.. A team no

 

If it's basic human instinct to be a cheater why don't you have the basic human instincts to be a fun person and respectful to be around? Thia isn't about life.. It's about having a good time

 

Kitson really feeding the jaha over in Vancouver, 100% CBD

If 1 player becomes meta and succeeds, another player does meta, then another, so on so forth, then a team build meta. So from my view

 

Player no, team no

 

I prefer to have fun and be respectful to be around but I also do beleive that it’s important to stand up for your beliefs. So I admire @jRuutu for making a well-informed, persuasive case that meta is trolling, even though I don’t agree with it. 
 

As for the last sentence… Huh? The web tells me that this means

 

”Kitson really feeding the Journal of the American Heart Association (JAHA) over in Vancouver, 100% Cannabidiol“

 

Can you explain to me what that means?

[jRuutu 2,467]

3 minutes ago, NSG said:

Maybe I misphrased my last comment so let me put it shorter

 

You say that we’re not “fair and honest”, I say “legal”. These are not the same. I never claimed that the team that I play for is winning fairly and honestly, nor do I think that I am a part of VHL history or great. If I were to leave the VHL today and never come back, I think there’d be about 3 people who’d remember me and know of my existence 5 years from now. Also, I never built meta knowingly, Nyko told me to build meta. I had no idea what meta was then and didn’t know at all until mid last-season. I never knowingly cheated/exploited the system, it was just that me, who never checks VHL Discord/forum, was being told by a trusted authority to do so in Season 77. 
 

Ultimately, I guess my point was way simpler than the 500-so words I wrote in the last quote: I don’t think that meta is fair or honest, I don’t think it’s quite trolling, and I think that the BOG would need to make a rule to stop meta.

 

 

Shame on Nyko for doing something like that, but it's not a surprise that something like that happened. That is why we are where we are. I agree with you, BOG and league leadership of the league should step in. I would even say BOG and leadership should punish users like Nyko, but we all know that is not going to happen as Nyko has graciously volunteered to help fix the mess Nyko created.

[NSG 498]

  

5 minutes ago, jRuutu said:

Shame on Nyko for doing something like that, but it's not a surprise that something like that happened. That is why we are where we are. I agree with you, BOG and league leadership of the league should step in. I would even say BOG and leadership should punish users like Nyko, but we all know that is not going to happen as Nyko has graciously volunteered to help fix the mess Nyko created.

Reactions like that always divide me

Optimistic side of NSG: “He realized his mistake and is offering to help! Good on him!”

Pessimistic side of NSG: “No no no! Don’t believe him, stupid! This is what politicians do every day!”

 

Anyways, I don’t think it was specifically mentioned as “meta”, but in retrospect, I was just getting instructions for doing meta, at least as much meta as I could do with 70 checking and fighting (For me, an Alabamian who barely ever sees hockey, I originally chased two things: hits, PIMs, and fights).

[Frank 5,212]

@jRuutu the hero we need.

[Spartan 4,414]

28 minutes ago, jRuutu said:

Shame on Nyko for doing something like that, but it's not a surprise that something like that happened. That is why we are where we are. I agree with you, BOG and league leadership of the league should step in. I would even say BOG and leadership should punish users like Nyko, but we all know that is not going to happen as Nyko has graciously volunteered to help fix the mess Nyko created.

As NSG said, it's not "fair" but it also wasn't "illegal." We can't punish people for a rule that never existed. For years, the "meta" was known but it was never used to the extent it was. It's like the unwritten rules in baseball or hockey, but you can't really punish someone on behalf of the league for breaking them. It sucks, but it is what it is.

 

As much as we get clowned for it, the BoG is trying to fix it, and we've got a tentative solution that shows promise. Nyko was mainly involved in gathering data so that the BoG collectively can work on a solution, he's not driving what the solution would look like. It'd be bizarre if I, as the GM that lost to Vancouver twice in the finals, just allowed him to finagle some shady solution in the BoG. Feel like there are enough VHL GM's in there who obviously have not benefited from Vancouver and would want to completely reduce the possibility of a similar occurrence in the future.

 

(Seriousness aside, I love these posts and threads, keep it going )