Is building the meta trolling?

[Baozi 1,658]

10 hours ago, jRuutu said:

Using a meta build and ''meta team'' to get those rings and stats is cheap. You are not competing in a fair way. You are not putting together a honest team. You are competing by doing as little as possible. You are competing by exploiting something. That is cheap. Your team and anybody else doing it or thinking about doing it are losers. You are losers. There is nothing wrong with being a loser, but your cups and stats mean very little.

 

You are just above simmers manually writing 60+60 to every players stats in the index.  Simmers could give you the cup before season started. Still you celebrate like you did something great or you are somehow now part of VHL history. You think you are like teams that at least tried to compete in a honest and fair away.  You are losers.  Worst part of it is that you think it's somehow ok to compete using cheap tactics. You invite others to do the same and they are doing it. I can't even imagine how anybody finds meta vs meta games interesting. That is where we are slowly heading. You are competing who's red circle is the most red. Who cares?  ''Hey, let's build the exact same player and see which team is the best'' - every meta player.

 

You do point tasks, you chat in locker rooms, you are part of the community, you do all these things just to build a meta. Can you imagine? All that effort to exploit and cheat. Oh wait a minute, you don't put in the effort because you are losers. You cut corners and think you should be applauded for it.

 

 

Trolling in this article is a little cute thought about meta build being something that most would see as ''annoying'' or something they would prefer not to see. So when Vancouver players and anyone else builds towards the meta, you could technically say it's trolling as the effects of building meta build brings out similar results than trolling in traditional sense. Some people might be upset and annoyed = trolling.

 

 

Wouldn't any build that wins cups on a regular basis be "meta"? That is the concept of the term. Which is to use the optimal strategy to guarantee the highest success probabilities. This is a game simulated using numbers and stats, and like something with low variance, means there is a way for someone to find out what the optimal strategy is mathematically.

 

Like to me its like saying the meta in IRL hockey is "skating" and man we hate seeing McDavid being able to outskate people because of his skating ability, we should make it so he can't skate. Oh look maybe the rest of the league shouldn't be allowed to skate.

 

The concept of not understanding how "meta" works blows my mind.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Baozi

[Beketov 9,034]

46 minutes ago, jRuutu said:

I agree with you, BOG and league leadership of the league should step in.

As I have explained to you multiple times before, we are but it takes time. This isn’t the kind of thing that can or should be rushed.

[Spartan 4,414]

47 minutes ago, Baozi said:

 

Wouldn't any build that wins cups on a regular basis be "meta"? That is the concept of the term. Which is to use the optimal strategy to guarantee the highest success probabilities. This is a game simulated using numbers and stats, and like something with low variance, means there is a way for someone to find out what the optimal strategy is mathematically.

 

Like to me its like saying the meta in IRL hockey is "skating" and man we hate seeing McDavid being able to outskate people because of his skating ability, we should make it so he can't skate. Oh look maybe the rest of the league shouldn't be allowed to skate.

 

The concept of not understanding how "meta" works blows my mind.

Can't really compare literal irl skills to numbers tho, and his usage was correct in this instance. There is a known meta build, that leads to more wins if executed in a certain way. It was executed in that way, and we're in the position we're in now. Yes, any build that wins cups on a regular basis is meta, and that's Vancouver's composition.

 

Support+Smite top isn't illegal but it damn sure isn't good for the game, so it gets nerfed so it either A. isn't possible or B. becomes too weak to be pursuing.

 

 

[Spartan 4,414]

44 minutes ago, Beketov said:

As I have explained to you multiple times before, we are but it takes time. This isn’t the kind of thing that can or should be rushed.

hurry up

[Beketov 9,034]

5 minutes ago, Spartan said:

hurry up

Follow your own advice

[Daniel Janser 2,185]

1 hour ago, Baozi said:

 

Wouldn't any build that wins cups on a regular basis be "meta"? That is the concept of the term. Which is to use the optimal strategy to guarantee the highest success probabilities. This is a game simulated using numbers and stats, and like something with low variance, means there is a way for someone to find out what the optimal strategy is mathematically.

 

Like to me its like saying the meta in IRL hockey is "skating" and man we hate seeing McDavid being able to outskate people because of his skating ability, we should make it so he can't skate. Oh look maybe the rest of the league shouldn't be allowed to skate.

 

The concept of not understanding how "meta" works blows my mind.

 

I do not think that it is fair to compare a one in a million irl skater with the meta-cancer that we have right now. McDavid has a god-given talent (insert superior being of your choice) and I do not even want to know how many hours of practice and how many injuries he had to endure to get at the point he is now.

 

Meta builds though do not require skill and only limited amount of time. The vexing thing is that it does not even require extensive effort (read: Max earning) as you deliberately neglect an IRL essential skill (Passing) and therefore can invest the tpe in the big four. It is in fact the opposite of what McDavid had to do to get where he is now.

 

McDavid's meta (if it is one) is acceptable, because there are maybe 10 people on his level in the best league in the world and not dozens or hundreds. And in the NHL a player like him makes 12.5 Million a year (i.e. 1/7th of the cap for the whole team). So you can not dress a full squad on his level (even if that many players on his level existed).

 

By my account for a fully fledged meta player you need around 780 TPA. You never need to go beyond that. As per the rule book for a veteran player of that skill level you pay minimum 4 mill p.a.. Which means you could afford 10 maxxed out metaplayers (ignoring the need for a goaltender for a moment). So if you have a compassionate  max earner assembles close to 1500 TPE in his career, this meta players never ever need to buy a regression fighter as they can simply replace the skill lost with the spare TPE. Hence there is no need for the GM to raise the salary in order for the player to be able to buy a 'Jagr' & Co. as same are simply not needed.

 

Also if Connor was as meta as you want us to believe, how come he has not won a Stanley cup yet?

 

 

[Baozi 1,658]

3 hours ago, Daniel Janser said:

 

I do not think that it is fair to compare a one in a million irl skater with the meta-cancer that we have right now. McDavid has a god-given talent (insert superior being of your choice) and I do not even want to know how many hours of practice and how many injuries he had to endure to get at the point he is now.

 

Meta builds though do not require skill and only limited amount of time. The vexing thing is that it does not even require extensive effort (read: Max earning) as you deliberately neglect an IRL essential skill (Passing) and therefore can invest the tpe in the big four. It is in fact the opposite of what McDavid had to do to get where he is now.

 

McDavid's meta (if it is one) is acceptable, because there are maybe 10 people on his level in the best league in the world and not dozens or hundreds. And in the NHL a player like him makes 12.5 Million a year (i.e. 1/7th of the cap for the whole team). So you can not dress a full squad on his level (even if that many players on his level existed).

 

By my account for a fully fledged meta player you need around 780 TPA. You never need to go beyond that. As per the rule book for a veteran player of that skill level you pay minimum 4 mill p.a.. Which means you could afford 10 maxxed out metaplayers (ignoring the need for a goaltender for a moment). So if you have a compassionate  max earner assembles close to 1500 TPE in his career, this meta players never ever need to buy a regression fighter as they can simply replace the skill lost with the spare TPE. Hence there is no need for the GM to raise the salary in order for the player to be able to buy a 'Jagr' & Co. as same are simply not needed.

 

Also if Connor was as meta as you want us to believe, how come he has not won a Stanley cup yet?

 

 

 

McDavid isn't meta. I'm saying being able to skate well is the meta. Compared to like 90s hockey. Skating ability vs bruisers. Clutch and grab vs high skill unobstructed hockey type.

[Nykonax 1,564]

10 hours ago, NSG said:

Nyko told me to build meta.

wait this just isnt true.

 

also @Daniel Janser the meaning behind that "wheres all the meta posts guys" was in every single playoff thread every1 spammed fuck meta, then we lose 2 games and no one posted about meta in that thread, its funny af imo

Edited February 17, 2022 by Nykonax

[NSG 498]

1 hour ago, Nykonax said:

wait this just isnt true.

 

also @Daniel Janser the meaning behind that "wheres all the meta posts guys" was in every single playoff thread every1 spammed fuck meta, then we lose 2 games and no one posts about meta in that thread, its funny af imo

Oh right I’m dum that was Fonzi but it was just 99 SC at that point

[NSG 498]

Sorry for the slander Nyko 

[jhatty8 671]

don't hate the player hate the game

[Enorama 2,038]

35 minutes ago, jhatty8 said:

don't hate the player hate the game

 

Hate Mr. Simon Tremblay himself for not selling us an editable license.

[Daniel Janser 2,185]

6 hours ago, Baozi said:

 

McDavid isn't meta. I'm saying being able to skate well is the meta. Compared to like 90s hockey. Skating ability vs bruisers. Clutch and grab vs high skill unobstructed hockey type.

Generally the skill level on almost everything has increased compared to 20 or 30 years ago. A lot more players can pull of a Michigan nowadays for example. And they do. It is called evolution. To me skating is not meta for ice hockey it is a prerequisite. Also of note clutch and grab is gone because the implementation of the no tolerance rules. You cannot find a player in the NHL anymore who cannot skate. Of course if you can skate like McDavid this will give you an edge.

[jRuutu 2,467]

13 hours ago, Spartan said:

As NSG said, it's not "fair" but it also wasn't "illegal." We can't punish people for a rule that never existed. For years, the "meta" was known but it was never used to the extent it was. It's like the unwritten rules in baseball or hockey, but you can't really punish someone on behalf of the league for breaking them. It sucks, but it is what it is.

 

As much as we get clowned for it, the BoG is trying to fix it, and we've got a tentative solution that shows promise. Nyko was mainly involved in gathering data so that the BoG collectively can work on a solution, he's not driving what the solution would look like. It'd be bizarre if I, as the GM that lost to Vancouver twice in the finals, just allowed him to finagle some shady solution in the BoG. Feel like there are enough VHL GM's in there who obviously have not benefited from Vancouver and would want to completely reduce the possibility of a similar occurrence in the future.

 

(Seriousness aside, I love these posts and threads, keep it going )

What about the ''spirit of the game'' rule, wasn't there something like that? If so, the meta stuff could break that rule. Or the trolling rules if we get cute and technical about it. I'm annoyed, I'm baited and trolled by wicked Meta trolls - I want justice.

 

There is no limit to the wickedness of users like Nyko. But good to hear Nyko is chained to the corner of BOG and given only ''simple'' tasks.  Hopefully solution is found soon! All my hats are made from tinfoil, the content never stops coming!

[jRuutu 2,467]

14 hours ago, Baozi said:

 

Wouldn't any build that wins cups on a regular basis be "meta"? That is the concept of the term. Which is to use the optimal strategy to guarantee the highest success probabilities. This is a game simulated using numbers and stats, and like something with low variance, means there is a way for someone to find out what the optimal strategy is mathematically.

 

Like to me its like saying the meta in IRL hockey is "skating" and man we hate seeing McDavid being able to outskate people because of his skating ability, we should make it so he can't skate. Oh look maybe the rest of the league shouldn't be allowed to skate.

 

The concept of not understanding how "meta" works blows my mind.

Not in my eyes if the cups are won in a ''honest'' way. As in the players put in the work. There is quite a few quality players. The builds/players are believable - nice mix of everything in the roster. Not 99 sc and mostly low passing everywhere.  I'm sure there is a way to still find the right mix, but for example the classic scorer/two-way/plamaker line combo is a lot easier one to accept than 3x99sc/low passing.

 

A lot more goes into it than just skating. Antti Pihlström, a Finnish player who was fast as ligthning on his skates, especially during his prime. He can't shoot the puck that well. He can't handle the puck that well. He eventually found a role as a checking forward and has a long career in the KHL. Sure, he was not McDavid level skater, but still an excellent skater. Why didn't he find success as a top-6 player? I'm sure there other similar players. Teemu Pulkkinen. Cannon of a shot. ''Laine light'' almost like. Problem is that he is not a great skater. Not a terrible skater, but not great. Cannon of a shot. He never got it going in NHL,  moves to KHL. Things go pretty well. VHL is a league for players like Pulkkinen, players who can shoot and all they do is shoot, they offer very little otherwise. You don't have to be a complete player in VHL - that is not how it should be. If you have clear holes in your game, you can't shoot, you can't handle the puck, or you can't skate - you should not be in the prime spotlight unless there is no other players available. And even then you should struggle. 

Because you like numbers and stats, what is the point in even simulating anything? Why don't you put together some kind of app or machine that counts the likelihood that teams win the championship. Then the team who is most likely to win just gets the championship? No simming anything. Just off-season after off-season. Let's see which team manages to improve their odds the most. You and other tech people can each take one or two teams and write 50+50 to each players stats in the index and portal. Just turn VHL into a chat league that has this little fun ''game'' going on. 

 

[Baozi 1,658]

10 minutes ago, jRuutu said:

Because you like numbers and stats, what is the point in even simulating anything? Why don't you put together some kind of app or machine that counts the likelihood that teams win the championship. Then the team who is most likely to win just gets the championship? No simming anything. Just off-season after off-season. Let's see which team manages to improve their odds the most. You and other tech people can each take one or two teams and write 50+50 to each players stats in the index and portal. Just turn VHL into a chat league that has this little fun ''game'' going on. 

 

 

You basically just described STHS. Its as you say, its an app and a machine that counts the likelyhood of outcomes with certain variables based on your team setups lol. VHL is a chat league that we're having fun in and a community that participates in different types of activities. What? You think this is supposed to mirror real life?

 

And the players you mentioned? I don't know the others put Pulks was a terrible skater, I'd know. I watched him enough as he was a detroit prospect. He didn't fit the "meta". Among other things, if you can skate, it can make up for your other shortcomings and he had plenty. 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Baozi

[zepheter 586]

WAIT WAIT WAIT hold on guys can we resume this conversation AFTER Florida Man retires? 

[Spartan 4,414]

55 minutes ago, zepheter said:

WAIT WAIT WAIT hold on guys can we resume this conversation AFTER Florida Man retires? 

No sorry, we're targeting you specifically!

[RomanesEuntDomus 442]

What Vancouver is doing obviously isn't trolling, but I'm also surprised to see how little is done about this meta sitiuation and how hesitant and cautious the league is to take any measures. I get it, you don't want to rush anything and end up with a solution that just creates new problems, that makes complete sense. But the damage is being done every day that the problem isn't tackled in the sense that it erodes peoples trust in the league and at least some of them are losing interest because of it.

 

And I would argue that there are at least some stop-gap solutions you could implement quickly while continuing to work on a more exhaustive long-term fix. Things like minimum gaps between PA and SC for example, say you put that gap at 20 so in order to build towards 99 Scoring, you have to build to at least 79 Passing as well. It doesn't completely fix the problem, but it softens the current extreme outgrows of the meta that we see and I'm sure there are other short term solutions like this one as well.

Edited February 17, 2022 by RomanesEuntDomus

[zepheter 586]

58 minutes ago, Spartan said:

No sorry, we're targeting you specifically!

NOOOOOOOOO

[Spartan 4,414]

21 minutes ago, RomanesEuntDomus said:

What Vancouver is doing obviously isn't trolling, but I'm also surprised to see how little is done about this meta sitiuation and how hesitant and cautious the league is to take any measures. I get it, you don't want to rush anything and end up with a solution that just creates new problems, that makes complete sense. But the damage is being done every day that the problem isn't tackled in the sense that it erodes peoples trust in the league and at least some of them are losing interest because of it.

 

And I would argue that there are at least some stop-gap solutions you could implement quickly while continuing to work on a more exhaustive long-term fix. Things like minimum gaps between PA and SC for example, say you put that gap at 20 so in order to build towards 99 Scoring, you have to build to at least 79 Passing as well. It doesn't completely fix the problem, but it softens the current extreme outgrows of the meta that we see and I'm sure there are other short term solutions like this one as well.

We'd rather not require the entire league to reroll multiple times, which is what a stopgap and final measure would require. We can't just bump up anyone with less than the gap for free, it'd mess with TPA brackets for the salary and also give people TPE they haven't earned. I've seen in the SHL how annoying it is to get every team to submit regression in a timely manner each offseason. Imagine if we have to reroll everyone in the league not once, but twice. It'd be time consuming and for what? Just to need another reroll hopefully within a season when the final solution is implemented.

 

I agree, it sucks that we can't just implement something easily and quickly. However I think the league is having a fun time bashing Vancouver. Good way to bring us all together lol. 

[thadthrasher 1,692]

On 2/14/2022 at 3:56 AM, jRuutu said:

using personal attacks during a friendly debate for no reason

This is part of the description you give for trolling.

 

On 2/16/2022 at 2:59 AM, jRuutu said:

Using a meta build and ''meta team'' to get those rings and stats is cheap. You are not competing in a fair way. You are not putting together a honest team. You are competing by doing as little as possible. You are competing by exploiting something. That is cheap. Your team and anybody else doing it or thinking about doing it are losers. You are losers.

 

On 2/16/2022 at 2:59 AM, jRuutu said:

You are losers.

 

On 2/16/2022 at 2:59 AM, jRuutu said:

All that effort to exploit and cheat. Oh wait a minute, you don't put in the effort because you are losers.

 

These three quotes above are areas where you kind of address the issue while simultaneously calling a broad group of player/users "losers." Now, I'm not a meta player because I have a goalie, so I suppose I don't fall into this group (or maybe I do since I was traded to Vancouver), but of course I'm not a fan of there being a meta. But, as it's been pointed out, there will ALWAYS be a more dominant build over the others. That's not something we can get rid of. I'd love to see actual suggestions for a solution over insulting a team of people who spent time doing point tasks and using their TPE how they wish, and the person who manages the team. It seems to me that most of the conversations about the meta are focused more on trying to defrock Nyko and discredit everything he does instead of offering a logical and well thought out solution.

 

In this article there wasn't even an attempt at bringing forward a solution. Instead, it was set on doing one thing, digging into the rule book and finding any possible way to label a team and players as "trolls." What would this achieve exactly? What was your end goal with this entire article?

 

Now, I ask, what is a troll? Well, let's look to what you said...

On 2/14/2022 at 3:56 AM, jRuutu said:

If I understood the rulebook correctly, trolling could be baiting or unprovoked antagonizing comments, unnecessary targeting of a specific member, and using personal attacks during a friendly debate for no reason.

 

This article was so focused on pinpointing a rule on someone and a team that it did the very thing that it accuses an entire team and Nyko of doing. Trolling.

 

I say all of this because I think you can offer up solutions that the BoG would love to hear, and I'm sure you already have. But the repeated comments, articles, and various other media used to kick at the sand and grumble "grrr meta" does nothing positive for the community or even the problem at hand.

[RomanesEuntDomus 442]

3 hours ago, Spartan said:

We'd rather not require the entire league to reroll multiple times, which is what a stopgap and final measure would require. We can't just bump up anyone with less than the gap for free, it'd mess with TPA brackets for the salary and also give people TPE they haven't earned. I've seen in the SHL how annoying it is to get every team to submit regression in a timely manner each offseason. Imagine if we have to reroll everyone in the league not once, but twice. It'd be time consuming and for what? Just to need another reroll hopefully within a season when the final solution is implemented.

 

I agree, it sucks that we can't just implement something easily and quickly. However I think the league is having a fun time bashing Vancouver. Good way to bring us all together lol. 

 

That's all fine and well if a fix actually comes anytime soon. But we're in like the third season of this hardcore meta now (at least, might be even longer) and we keep pushing pushing back concrete measures that would alleviate the issue right now in the vague hope of a long-term fix  that even the BOG isn't confident enough yet to even set a timeline for. If you guys can promise that there will be some sort of fix next offseason then good, lets do that, but we need need something more concrete than "when it's done".

[Spartan 4,414]

1 minute ago, RomanesEuntDomus said:

 

That's all fine and well if a fix actually comes anytime soon. But we're in like the third season of this hardcore meta now (at least, might be even longer) and we keep pushing pushing back concrete measures that would alleviate the issue right now in the vague hope of a long-term fix  that even the BOG isn't confident enough yet to even set a timeline for. If you guys can promise that there will be some sort of fix next offseason then good, lets do that, but we need need something more concrete than "when it's done".

I mean, we're also not rushing into a change like the SHL did when they faced this issue. Has FHM really been any better for the league? It's arguably a lot more difficult to fix the issue with the limitations of STHS than to just switch sim engines and how the league operates in terms of updating and simming.

 

As for the three season point, the first season could be shrugged off because it was one season. Clearly you don't make knee jerk reactions off of one season. The second season was like "ok, this isn't great, let's figure something out." Now we're like two weeks into the third season. How much faster of a timeline do we expect here?

[Daniel Janser 2,185]

1 minute ago, RomanesEuntDomus said:

 

That's all fine and well if a fix actually comes anytime soon. But we're in like the third season of this hardcore meta now (at least, might be even longer) and we keep pushing pushing back concrete measures that would alleviate the issue right now in the vague hope of a long-term fix  that even the BOG isn't confident enough yet to even set a timeline for. If you guys can promise that there will be some sort of fix next offseason then good, lets do that, but we need need something more concrete than "when it's done".

I think what bothers some people is that the one who is running all the tests (as I understand it) is the one who at the moment is exploiting this meta the most (I am not saying he is the only one). Now, I am not saying that he does sabotage the testing or rig it or deliberately prolong the meta existence. All I am saying is, if you are from the outside looking in, it doesn't give you a fuzzy feeling about it, due to the apparent conflict of interest.

 

Imagine Exxon gets a monopoly to find an alternative fuel, with everyone else being benched on the problem. So Exxon is working on this alternative fuel on a (perceived) snail pace, while everyone else is forced to watch and twiddling thumbs, while Exxon is still selling oil and makes a shitload of money. Every now and then there is a PC from the Exxon brass 'We are working on it, a solution will be ready when it's ready, we cannot rush these things', while ripping everybody and their mothers off at the pump.

 

During my NCO training I was taught that a mediocre solution (or even a bad one) in time is a better solution than the perfect solution too late.

 

I appreciate that BOG wants to make the right moves and to spare a 'trial and error' phase. And honestly I my self do not give a damn about the meta, I play my player as I see fit and do not define myself over success in a virtual sports league at all. 

 

I think there will be a point of no return where so many players will have meta builds, because they are sick and tired of being in the passenger seat when not doing it that we can as well throw a dice at the beginning of the season for all the trophies. At that point we can as well nuke the VHL and restart from square one. I hope it will not come to that.