NEXT META: IGNORE SKATING. BURN THE LEAGUE; OR AT VERY LEAST BURN VANCOUVER

[jRuutu 2,464]

Clickbait title?

WRONG

Maybe

 

A quick look around a competing league suggests that the bright minds have already discovered what the next ''metalicious'' build could be. Avoid skating. Worth pointing out that the possible sim engine version differences could affect the effectiveness of ignoring skating. And even if ignoring skating works like a charm, nobody knows if we are looking at similar results as with the current meta builds. What we do know is that people are out there looking for the next exploit. The question is: what are the league and BOG going to do about it? If a long list of players decide to create builds with, for example, low skating - is anything going to be done to those users? The league and BOG have actively avoided punishing those who built their players using the current meta build. Some in the BOG even built the meta player themselves. For that reason, it's safe to assume that nothing is going to be done, especially as there are no updates to the rulebook. What better moment to add some updates to the rulebook than now? If we look at it right now, what stops anyone from finding the next meta build? What stops the same GMs and users from building the next meta build teams?

 

This time around the ''new meta'' will spread faster. BOG has decided to give every user and player the freedom to re-roll their builds the second time before the start of S86. For that reason, if there ends up being a ''metalicious'' build - users will try to copy it. We already have a sizeable number of users who use the current meta build. We have an even bigger list of users who now know what it means to play against a team with multiple meta players. The number of users who are willing to wait another three seasons for a potential fix will be a lot smaller than right now. These users will also start going for the meta build as it will give them the best chance to compete. It will be as simple as that.

 

What I would like to see?

 

Suspensions, harsh TPE punishments. Bans.

 

I don't think we need to watch the same circus two times in a row. These users are going to keep going. There will be a build that is going to work better than others. BUT I think there is a difference between
''honest'' 80PA/99DFSCSK build, or close to it, and whatever that will be in the hybrid version TO something with super low skating. Not everybody is a McDavid-level skater.  I know, this is not a sim engine for that type of roleplaying. Could we even pretend that is the case? Could we pretend that not ''everybody'' is absolutely dog shit at skating?

 

Is it too much to ask for some punishments for those who are planning on creating something silly? For example, low skating build? If we all of a sudden see it happening, what is going to be the explanation then? People just decided to do something silly and weird? ''We can't prevent them from doing something weird, like ignoring skating all of a sudden''?

 

[Baozi 1,658]

Beavis made a low skating build haha. It wasn't working.

[Beketov 9,022]

1. What exactly do you envision low skating to do that would break anything? Do you remotely have any proof of this?

 

2. Meta just means optimal, there’s always a build that’s the most optimal. The difference is whether or not that optimal build completely breaks the engine or not. If it doesn’t I couldn’t care less whether someone finds something optimal or not. If it does we’ll adjust the ratios so that it’s fixed. We have the systems in place now.

 

3. Yes, it is too much to ask for people to be pu is he’s because of using a specific build. Whether you like it or not we are not in the business of policing every single thing people choose to do with their player. If we got that far we would basically be at a point of just saying “here’s your chosen build, go watch some RNG” because all the choice would be removed.

[Spartan 4,399]

[jRuutu 2,464]

32 minutes ago, Beketov said:

1. What exactly do you envision low skating to do that would break anything? Do you remotely have any proof of this?

 

2. Meta just means optimal, there’s always a build that’s the most optimal. The difference is whether or not that optimal build completely breaks the engine or not. If it doesn’t I couldn’t care less whether someone finds something optimal or not. If it does we’ll adjust the ratios so that it’s fixed. We have the systems in place now.

 

3. Yes, it is too much to ask for people to be pu is he’s because of using a specific build. Whether you like it or not we are not in the business of policing every single thing people choose to do with their player. If we got that far we would basically be at a point of just saying “here’s your chosen build, go watch some RNG” because all the choice would be removed.

1.  Saves from adding points to it.  All I have is this screenshot:

 

It could be nothing, but worth throwing it out there still.

 

2. I understand that there is always going to be optimal build or something that works better than others, but if the build looks odd, like with 40 passing or with 20 or 30 skating, I think we are talking about different things.

 

3. I think there is a line, and that line is 40 passing, or 40 skating, and then focusing in scoring. Then having high percentage of your team and/or teammates do the same. Fair to say something is going on.  Something that should result in punishments.

 

[Dil 1,760]

only needs to spend 1356 TPE

[Beketov 9,022]

50 minutes ago, jRuutu said:

1.  Saves from adding points to it.  All I have is this screenshot:

 

It could be nothing, but worth throwing it out there still.

 

2. I understand that there is always going to be optimal build or something that works better than others, but if the build looks odd, like with 40 passing or with 20 or 30 skating, I think we are talking about different things.

 

3. I think there is a line, and that line is 40 passing, or 40 skating, and then focusing in scoring. Then having high percentage of your team and/or teammates do the same. Fair to say something is going on.  Something that should result in punishments.

 

1. I assume that’s from SHL? We are running a completely different sim engine version with very different TPE levels and sliders so suffice to say that things don’t work the same way; they never have. I am curious though, we’re they just discussing our change or what?

 

2. Those builds aren’t even possible I don’t believe with the hybrid system, passing certainly isn’t unless you wanna cap scoring at like 60. Like I said, if something becomes a problem we have the bones now so we can just tweak ratios.

 

3. But we offered the freedom to do that, that’s the whole idea. You are free to build as you please. Why should the league dictate that you need to put points into everything or face punishment? That’s not how it works. Yes, the meta was broken, but it wasn’t illegal. We aren’t going to punish someone for breaking a non-rule (I’m sure you’d be equally pissed if we did) and we aren’t going to write rules based exclusively around removing oriole’s build freedom based off theories. Again, if something actually breaks we can fix it but why punish those that found something optimal that was missed? They didn’t do anything inherently wrong even if it is annoying and that’s coming from someone who has lost back to back finals.

[NSG 498]

I've said this before, but I don't appreciate every single Wolves player and person associated with the franchise gets attacked for what a minority of them do. I'm not a meta player but apparently my team's city should be burned

[Baozi 1,658]

I mean if someone is making a silly build, would it matter? Nobody would draft them or want to sign them anyways.

[Hogan 1,423]

MORE PUNISHMENTS LETS HAND OUT MORE PUNISHMENTS!

[jRuutu 2,464]

12 hours ago, Beketov said:

1. I assume that’s from SHL? We are running a completely different sim engine version with very different TPE levels and sliders so suffice to say that things don’t work the same way; they never have. I am curious though, we’re they just discussing our change or what?

 

2. Those builds aren’t even possible I don’t believe with the hybrid system, passing certainly isn’t unless you wanna cap scoring at like 60. Like I said, if something becomes a problem we have the bones now so we can just tweak ratios.

 

3. But we offered the freedom to do that, that’s the whole idea. You are free to build as you please. Why should the league dictate that you need to put points into everything or face punishment? That’s not how it works. Yes, the meta was broken, but it wasn’t illegal. We aren’t going to punish someone for breaking a non-rule (I’m sure you’d be equally pissed if we did) and we aren’t going to write rules based exclusively around removing oriole’s build freedom based off theories. Again, if something actually breaks we can fix it but why punish those that found something optimal that was missed? They didn’t do anything inherently wrong even if it is annoying and that’s coming from someone who has lost back to back finals.

1. Yes from SHL. And I see! They did mention if they tested on multiple versions or anything like that. The dynamic attributes solution of VHL was brought up as I think not everybody is pleased with the current setup there, and maybe just for fun to see how other places are working around a similar situation.

 

2. That is good news, I'm glad stuff can be fixed and tweaked fast, if needed!

 

3. But the freedom to build silly builds or whatever builds would still be there. However, the builds that clearly aim to exploit something AND numerous players team up to do it is a different thing. For example, the current meta stuff. That is not the same thing as 8 users around the league doing enforcer builds or whatever build. Build silly to fool around or build silly to exploit/win, the latter is something that in my opinion requires action from the league.

[jRuutu 2,464]

11 hours ago, NSG said:

I've said this before, but I don't appreciate every single Wolves player and person associated with the franchise gets attacked for what a minority of them do. I'm not a meta player but apparently my team's city should be burned

Get on with the times, meta sympathizer. If you want to keep your mega yachts you can't be seen kicking it with the meta folks and waving the meta flag. Apologies about the city burning. I was not clear enough. I meant just the team.

[jRuutu 2,464]

10 hours ago, Baozi said:

I mean if someone is making a silly build, would it matter? Nobody would draft them or want to sign them anyways.

Depends who builds the build, if it's a known user someone will take a shot. And especially if they have some interesting thoughts behind the reason they are going for the silly build. For example, low skating build. 

[Jubis 1,347]

I came here  for the burn Van part 

[Beketov 9,022]

1 hour ago, jRuutu said:

Build silly to fool around or build silly to exploit/win, the latter is something that in my opinion requires action from the league

And it got action from the league. Action does not mean punishments. We put a system in place to fix the problem.

 

What you are asking is for us to establish and preemptively ban exploits that we don’t know exist; that’s not a reasonable thing to do which is why I say that it smiths to just banning certain builds which we have no interest in doing. With the mindset of the current meta it’s easy to say “well obviously X is exploitative” but that’s not the case. 40 seasons ago no one knew anything about the current meta problems so why would they have batted at eye at someone with 40 passing? It just would have seemed like one of those “silly builds” that people try. We can’t realistically predict what is just something silly and what is something problematic until we see it in action. If we see something that’s a problem we’ll adjust the ratios to make it impossible but we aren’t going to punish people for building as they please and within the rules.

[Ahma 1,428]

I'm confident that now would be the perfect time to relocate Vancouver back to Quebec City, the rightful place for the Meute.

[Shindigs 1,771]

jRuutu: No skating meta

 

Pass first VHLM players:

[NSG 498]

5 hours ago, jRuutu said:

Get on with the times, meta sympathizer. If you want to keep your mega yachts you can't be seen kicking it with the meta folks and waving the meta flag. Apologies about the city burning. I was not clear enough. I meant just the team.

Right, yes, I’m certain that everyone thinks “meta sympathizer” when they think of me. It’s a surprise that I haven’t changed my UN to “MrMetaMan” yet. 
 

In all seriousness though, I don’t think that the current meta is a good idea for the same reasons, and you’re allowed to express your frustrations, but you’re taking it too far. First you were telling people, that meta users were trolls, but in such provocative language that you came across as the troll, and now you’re telling me that I’m a “meta sympathizer” who has “mega yachts” kicking it with 

“meta folks” and waving “meta flags”. From what I can see, your use of “meta” is a scare tactic meant to win supporters for your cause. Though this has proved to be wildly successful in American politics, we’re in a fake hockey league. It’s about having fun, not yelling about sim engines

 

Also, you’re going too far with bashing Vancouver. You wish all sorts of awful things upon a team that has exactly 1/2 of its skaters (5 of 10) exploiting unrealistically optimal builds for all of 3 seasons. The non-meta 5 skaters have no reason to be bashed, nor does the entire franchise.

 

As for this article, I have some issues. One screenshot from the SHL that says, effectively, that 99 skating is not the first thing to do. Next thing you’ll tell me is that leadership is not a helpful attribute, I take it? Also, I’m not even sure about how many people knew about this build before you posted this, so you’re literally amplifying this information, which seems counterintuitive to your cause. And then about this bans and punishments talk: No. Remember how I said that the purpose was to have fun? Making people build in certain ways isn’t fun, and decreases diversity in builds, which is one of the problems with meta. So not sure about that one.

[jRuutu 2,464]

8 hours ago, Beketov said:

And it got action from the league. Action does not mean punishments. We put a system in place to fix the problem.

 

What you are asking is for us to establish and preemptively ban exploits that we don’t know exist; that’s not a reasonable thing to do which is why I say that it smiths to just banning certain builds which we have no interest in doing. With the mindset of the current meta it’s easy to say “well obviously X is exploitative” but that’s not the case. 40 seasons ago no one knew anything about the current meta problems so why would they have batted at eye at someone with 40 passing? It just would have seemed like one of those “silly builds” that people try. We can’t realistically predict what is just something silly and what is something problematic until we see it in action. If we see something that’s a problem we’ll adjust the ratios to make it impossible but we aren’t going to punish people for building as they please and within the rules.

I understand it would be a challenge to make a general rule, but I don't think it's as challenging to start from the other end by throwing punishments to GM's that clearly go for ''silly'' builds with their team. For example, the current meta build stuff. If the GM is one of the players doing it and then there is 4 other players who do the same, in my eyes it would be fair to throw something at the GM and the players.  That is my point on it really. It would be more like some of the Coc stuff with ''case by case'' evaluation, and ideally targeted to analyze cases like the ''Vancouver case''.

 

 

[jRuutu 2,464]

5 hours ago, Shindigs said:

jRuutu: No skating meta

 

Pass first VHLM players:

That is too silly!

[Shindigs 1,771]

Just now, jRuutu said:

That is too silly!

Just wait until you see my, totally not even troll, VHLE entry level 69ST, 69SC, 69DF build!

[jRuutu 2,464]

58 minutes ago, NSG said:

Right, yes, I’m certain that everyone thinks “meta sympathizer” when they think of me. It’s a surprise that I haven’t changed my UN to “MrMetaMan” yet. 
 

In all seriousness though, I don’t think that the current meta is a good idea for the same reasons, and you’re allowed to express your frustrations, but you’re taking it too far. First you were telling people, that meta users were trolls, but in such provocative language that you came across as the troll, and now you’re telling me that I’m a “meta sympathizer” who has “mega yachts” kicking it with 

“meta folks” and waving “meta flags”. From what I can see, your use of “meta” is a scare tactic meant to win supporters for your cause. Though this has proved to be wildly successful in American politics, we’re in a fake hockey league. It’s about having fun, not yelling about sim engines

 

Also, you’re going too far with bashing Vancouver. You wish all sorts of awful things upon a team that has exactly 1/2 of its skaters (5 of 10) exploiting unrealistically optimal builds for all of 3 seasons. The non-meta 5 skaters have no reason to be bashed, nor does the entire franchise.

 

As for this article, I have some issues. One screenshot from the SHL that says, effectively, that 99 skating is not the first thing to do. Next thing you’ll tell me is that leadership is not a helpful attribute, I take it? Also, I’m not even sure about how many people knew about this build before you posted this, so you’re literally amplifying this information, which seems counterintuitive to your cause. And then about this bans and punishments talk: No. Remember how I said that the purpose was to have fun? Making people build in certain ways isn’t fun, and decreases diversity in builds, which is one of the problems with meta. So not sure about that one.

You should consider it at least, or make your Discord name something similar for the laughs!

 

I might be one of the louder users as I ramble about it all the time, but I'm not the only one who thinks that what you have done in Vancouver is not cool. Plenty of people see it on their own by just being active and following the standings/league.  If it was up to me I would delete the history books from the last two seasons. I would just add a smiley face there. I would also delete and/or relocate Vancouver. Then we could look back on this period of time as the dark days.

 

All I did was report what I saw. It could be 100% incorrect, or have some truth behind it - maybe we see skating being less important all of a sudden? Or something else.  If it was up to me, you and your GM would be fired and permanently prevented from having a GM role. I would also throw a 200 TPE fine on your players for actively exploiting the sim engine and building your team the meta way.

[jRuutu 2,464]

19 minutes ago, Shindigs said:

Just wait until you see my, totally not even troll, VHLE entry level 69ST, 69SC, 69DF build!

That build is going to be fun in both ends!

[NSG 498]

1 hour ago, jRuutu said:

You should consider it at least, or make your Discord name something similar for the laughs!

 

I might be one of the louder users as I ramble about it all the time, but I'm not the only one who thinks that what you have done in Vancouver is not cool. Plenty of people see it on their own by just being active and following the standings/league.  If it was up to me I would delete the history books from the last two seasons. I would just add a smiley face there. I would also delete and/or relocate Vancouver. Then we could look back on this period of time as the dark days.

 

All I did was report what I saw. It could be 100% incorrect, or have some truth behind it - maybe we see skating being less important all of a sudden? Or something else.  If it was up to me, you and your GM would be fired and permanently prevented from having a GM role. I would also throw a 200 TPE fine on your players for actively exploiting the sim engine and building your team the meta way.

Haha sadly I haven’t been on the VHL Discord in months (also I was being sarcastic in the 1st post btw)

 

I never said that you were in the minority about Vancouver. I will reiterate yet again that I have never built meta, nor do I support it. I quite plainly just believe that vengeance is not the path forward. Deleting history is also a bad idea. If you don’t acknowledge the bad things of the past, the same mistakes will be repeated. 
 

I appreciate the reporting, but how do I say this? It gave me tabloid vibes. It just seemed way overexaggerated. Reporting on these things is fine, making it into yellow journalism, not so much.

 

Also, why are you saying “you” so often? I played no role in making Vanny meta, I just voice my opinions. I guess the big issue about this is that I take a more moderate stance on this, and you’re a little too progressive for me.

[Daniel Janser 2,166]

9 minutes ago, NSG said:

Also, why are you saying “you” so often? I played no role in making Vanny meta, I just voice my opinions. I guess the big issue about this is that I take a more moderate stance on this, and you’re a little too progressive for me.

To be honest, I have the same challenge with 'you' and 'one'. For the simple fact that in German (my mother tongue) 'you' and 'one' is interchangable (at least in slang). So I need to be extra careful to use the appropriate pronoun when trying to express my thoughts in English. Also in German the pronouns for 'you' (singular) and 'you' (plural) are different ('Du' (singular, familiar)/'Sie' (singular, formal) and 'Ihr' (plural and also used when addressing royalty) respectively.