Eminem and Rape

[pxzero 65]

First, everyone is taking the Adrian Peterson out of context.  He's not calling him out, he's using a double (or triple depending on how you read it)-entendre inside a pop culture allusion. It's the same as his Pam & Tommy reference. Or the Lorena Bobbett one. Or generally every single reference he's made since 1999. 
 

im drunk right now, but using chino xl as a citation of rap is pretty lame, no one gives two shits about him.

I think that's why it's a perfectly acceptable example of a rapper. The game is not simply one guy.  Where do you draw the line? Hit platinum, then your lyrics matter? That's Em's entire argument: "Guess I'm a little bit of a hypocrite/When I'm ripping shit, but since when did this many/People ever give a shit but I had to say/It's just my opinion" - Eminem in Asshole from the MMLP2
  
I'm a feminist too - do not, in any way, think I'm condoning the sentiment behind what was said. Instead, I argue he's allowed to say it. Think of it in terms of that famous Evelyn Beatrice Hall comment: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

 

And if the content is a problem, again... where do we draw the line?  What about someone like Vincent Staples, who comes up from a crumby background and talks about drugs and violence in that it's an everyday thing? Does he have to stop when he gets big?  What about T.I., who should have stopped with the drugs when he made it but didn't? Or 50, who still makes his cash off gangsta rap? What about Cashis, who is still actively in a gang?

And then you cite Nas and Jay-Z as still relevant... Jay yes. Nas hasn't charted anything outside of the hip-hop top 100 since 2008, and even then he was where...? 97th on his single?  There's too much inconsistency here. 

[pxzero 65]

Also ,saying that rap shouldn't be censored because it's an "art form" is complete bullshit. So if I consider something to be art, not matter what it is, it can't be censored? That's insane.  Rap , satire, art, lyrics, whatever you want to call it, the shit that rappers sing about today is not art, it is not good music and is part of society's problem today.

 

"good" is the most subjective term imaginable. The skill behind some of it is insane.  Look at the lyrics in question: In the single verse he makes over a half dozen allusions, calls out 4 people, has more alliteration and assonance than it's worth to count, switches the flow 4-5 times... (and flow is just a lay word for complex rhyme/meter scheme)

Then he calls out Nicki and Iggy at the same time, using Nicki's flow from Lookin' Ass... 

You've got enough literary moves in there to make a novel, enough "rap" moves to qualify for a clinic on it, and then parody/homage at the same time. This is literally more complex than a lot of poetry from the classical Greats. 

Edited November 22, 2014 by pxzero

[AIM-11 134]

It still can't be proven without a shadow of a doubt.

 

Nothing can in this world, however they can get awfully close, and in the court of law that's all they need.

[AIM-11 134]

Like with many artistic pieces, people get outraged when they take things out of context. People tried to (and continue to) censor the adventures of Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn because it uses the word 'nigger.' Contextually, the book is a clear critique of racism that uses the word to help show the struggles of being black in America at that point in time. 

 

True.

 

People will sometimes ignore blatant misogyny because they like the way a guy makes music. 

 

It goes both ways.

[Kendrick 4,724]

Nothing can in this world, however they can get awfully close, and in the court of law that's all they need.

What court are you speaking of exactly?

[probably not noah 346]

Nothing can in this world, however they can get awfully close, and in the court of law that's all they need.

 

True.

 

People will sometimes ignore blatant misogyny because they like the way a guy makes music. 

 

It goes both ways.

 

Agreed on both counts. 

 

Our legal system doesn't function on without a shadow of doubt. If it did, nobody would be convicted. It functions on 'beyond reasonable doubt,' which there damn well is going to be enough for Cosby.

 

Also, yes. However I don't think that that's a symptom of rap any more than it is any other genre. For as long as popular music has existed, sexist, racist, and otherwise offensive messages have seeped their way into it. Rap is born of a popular music tradition that has looong taken a great deal of pride and pleasure in promoting misogyny. I'm a massive fan of blues rock, but I will be the first to tell you how fucking awful some of the lyrics from some of the greatest bands to come out of the late 60s blues revival are. Country music? Forget about it. Metal? Duh. Pop? Oh my god pop is a misogyny machine. 

 

None of this is to say it's okay, it's to say that often things are taken out of context, and more often Rap gets a bad rep for doing the exact same things that have been done for over a hundred years. Don't believe me? Listen to any Delta Blues or original 'Hillbilly' music. Ho-lee shit. 

[probably not noah 346]

What court are you speaking of exactly?

 

Well the Supreme Court of Canada for one..

[Kendrick 4,724]

I never read much from the OP after a bit but here is my take. Eminem's whole shtick is to create chaos and fuck with minds through his lyrics. The guy feeds off reactions and wants people to drive his music through spite. If you are claiming his lyrics should stop because they over the edge of controversy and to the side of realistic allegations/stories, I agree. I don't put up with his lyrics or listen to him anymore, nor do I listen to rap for that very reason. In my opinion that genre is just filled with egos who came from nothing to brag about how many champagne bottles they uncork a night, bitches they lay and people they stomped on to rise up. That's not music, thats a culture and one with horribly low morales too.

 

However if you are saying that what his lyrics are describing is that of a real life criminal offence, it would have to have physical evidence behind it and if taken to court a pen and paper for an album wouldn't put him away.

 

I don't agree with 99% of the things Eminem does, but when written in lyrics nothing can really be done unless the threat was handed to Iggy first hand. Like I said I don't listen to rap more than the next guy or what have you, I also don't appreciate it or Hip Hop as some would (I find it based on the wrong material) but in the end it's all art in some form.

[Kendrick 4,724]

Well the Supreme Court of Canada for one..

Not always the case. Coming close is great but you can't put someone away for "coming close to" evidence.

[probably not noah 346]

Not always the case. Coming close is great but you can't put someone away for "coming close to" evidence.

 

No, but you can put someone away for proving them guilty 'beyond reasonable doubt.' In fact that's exactly what you need to do in a court of law to put someone away. And unless I'm misinterpreting the phrase, I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean 'without a shadow of doubt.'

[Merica 69]

"good" is the most subjective term imaginable. The skill behind some of it is insane.  Look at the lyrics in question: In the single verse he makes over a half dozen allusions, calls out 4 people, has more alliteration and assonance than it's worth to count, switches the flow 4-5 times... (and flow is just a lay word for complex rhyme/meter scheme)

Then he calls out Nicki and Iggy at the same time, using Nicki's flow from Lookin' Ass... 

You've got enough literary moves in there to make a novel, enough "rap" moves to qualify for a clinic on it, and then parody/homage at the same time. This is literally more complex than a lot of poetry from the classical Greats. 

 

So his ability to string together verses with incredible skill somehow gives him a pass to say whatever he wants?

[Kendrick 4,724]

No, but you can put someone away for proving them guilty 'beyond reasonable doubt.' In fact that's exactly what you need to do in a court of law to put someone away. And unless I'm misinterpreting the phrase, I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean 'without a shadow of doubt.'

So if Eminem writes a lyrics saying for Iggy should hire that thing (her ass) or he will rape her, do you feel as Noah, that he could be prosecuted for that?

[probably not noah 346]

So if Eminem writes a lyrics saying for Iggy should hire that thing (her ass) or he will rape her, do you feel as Noah, that he could be prosecuted for that?

 

No, my discussions on reasonable doubt were regarding the second conversation going on in this thread about Bill Cosby. 

[Kendrick 4,724]

No, my discussions on reasonable doubt were regarding the second conversation going on in this thread about Bill Cosby. 

Oh well don't get me started on Bill. I do a good impression of his voice, but that's where I stop.

[Devise 4,475]

There are some very good posts in here that I can say I do agree with. In terms of rap or any genre of music or other art being offensive I'll side with Noah and a few others on the point that offensive and controversial art has existed forever. It will exist forever as well. 

 

A lot of it has to do with what society accepts, and what we as people accept as well. When black people were being treated like slaves, making satire about slavery and the quality of life for a black person is as awful as it gets. Yet I've seen comedians now, so many years later do it and get a laugh. While it certainly isn't considered "good" we are more open to accepting it because as a society we know we have worked to actual correct the controversial issue. The humor doesn't feel as if it's dealing with something so raw anymore.

 

The same will hold true for the issue in question. Gender equality, rape, womens rights, it is a very hot button topic in the world right now. But when we grow as a people in many hundreds of years we will all be less offended by this stuff. Which in turn means that it isn't the "art" that offends you. Your simply reaching and feeling helpess because these issues currently exist and we are looking for reasons and things to pin them to. It's a cowards tactic. The reality is, the issue of rape and gender equality is so massive that even if we fix it in small pocket areas it's place in the world is huge. Whether its Countries with less education and freedoms we enjoy, people who simply don't know better, or the fact that there are people out there who have downright horrendous opinions. The issue at hand is super complicated. A few people making "art" talking about or encouraging such acts is hardly the root of any problem, and is simply a commentary on life itself. Ergo, it's not really apart of the problem. 

[Tagger 2,722]

 It's pathetic, and an obvious ploy to ruin him, why wait SO long? and why are they ALL coming out right NOW? Fishy.

 

There's a few reasons as to why they wouldn't report it right away, probably one of the bigger ones is that considering Cosby's stature, they don't think the authorities would listen, or in fact have tried the authorities only to have them not take them seriously. It's a lot more difficult for authorities to dismiss a lot of complaints that come at the same time.

 

Here in the UK, over the last few years there's been a somewhat frightening amount of celebrities whose height of fame came in the 60's, 70's and 80's found guilty of sexual abuse during that period. One in particular, who was knighted (given the rank of Sir) was found to be involved in over 500 sexual abuse cases, lots of them in hospitals and most of them under-age. Even though it spanned from the 50's to the 2000's, this was only exposed after his death in 2011 because people had been either too scared or ignored by authorities prior to his death. 

 

I'm not saying Cosby is guilty or anything, I'm just saying that just because people are only coming forward now doesn't necessarily make it "fishy"

[Tyler 881]

He's been accused, and he will never be charged because no one has any proof and even some of the stories don't add up with what their saying now (See Janice Dickinson, who was telling a different story in her book back in 01 I believe). If he's guilty, than its a true shame, but if he isn't, than I hope the accusers burn for trying to destroy him. It's pathetic, and an obvious ploy to ruin him, why wait SO long? and why are they ALL coming out right NOW? Fishy.

 

Also ,saying that rap shouldn't be censored because it's an "art form" is complete bullshit. So if I consider something to be art, not matter what it is, it can't be censored? That's insane.  Rap , satire, art, lyrics, whatever you want to call it, the shit that rappers sing about today is not art, it is not good music and is part of society's problem today.

 

 

Okay lol. He's been accused by like 20 women, all of whom have the same story. Either there is some MASSIVE anti Bill Cosby conspiracy, or he's a rapist. I'm leaning towards the second one. No one believed anyone back then rape and sexual crimes were not taken as seriously in the 70's and 80's.

 

lmao wow you're so racist man! So because you don't relate to or enjoy rap it isn't art, cool man that's dope. I don't like country but it's still art who the fuck am I to tell someone they aren't making art. To say rap today sucks is stupid as well, there is more diversity in rap in 2014 than arguably ever before although I don't expect you to understand this. 

[gorlab 4,321]

Guaranteed the illuminati found out Bill Cosby was planning to speak up against them because he old af and ain't scared anymore. So they hired/paid a bunch of women to suddenly come out of the woodwork after 30 years and make these accusations against him, tarnishing his name and reputation to the point where he no longer has an audience willing to listen or believe him.

[Merica 69]

Okay lol. He's been accused by like 20 women, all of whom have the same story. Either there is some MASSIVE anti Bill Cosby conspiracy, or he's a rapist. I'm leaning towards the second one. No one believed anyone back then rape and sexual crimes were not taken as seriously in the 70's and 80's.

 

lmao wow you're so racist man! So because you don't relate to or enjoy rap it isn't art, cool man that's dope. I don't like country but it's still art who the fuck am I to tell someone they aren't making art. To say rap today sucks is stupid as well, there is more diversity in rap in 2014 than arguably ever before although I don't expect you to understand this. 

 

Lol how am I racist? because I don't like rap? So basically, what's happening here, is because I don't think rhyming about sexual abuse, murder, rape, domestic violence, etc,  is art, or agree with you, I am in the wrong? So because my opinion isn't the popular one, that automatically makes me incorrect? You are welcome to think rap and the shit they sing about is art, but I, however, do not.

 

Also, as far as Cosby, I hope justice is served and they find out the truth. Wouldn't surprise me in the least if he was guilty, or if their all a bunch of liars, people are capable of terrible things.Nothing surprises me in this world anymore.

[Sandro 251]

This thread is so fucking stupid.

[Kendrick 4,724]

lmao wow you're so racist man! So because you don't relate to or enjoy rap it isn't art, cool man that's dope. I don't like country but it's still art who the fuck am I to tell someone they aren't making art. To say rap today sucks is stupid as well, there is more diversity in rap in 2014 than arguably ever before although I don't expect you to understand this. 

How in any way did he say anything racist? He said he doesn't like rap or hip hop, that doesn't make him a racist. Hip Hop and Rap are performed by all races in society, not sure how you came up with that one.

[Tyler 881]

How in any way did he say anything racist? He said he doesn't like rap or hip hop, that doesn't make him a racist. Hip Hop and Rap are performed by all races in society, not sure how you came up with that one.

 

 

he doesn't respect it, he said it isn't art. It's a primarily minority art form, how can you not see where this would come from? He doesn't respect a minority artform and his only reason is the content, it's obviously racially based.

[Tyler 881]

Lol how am I racist? because I don't like rap? So basically, what's happening here, is because I don't think rhyming about sexual abuse, murder, rape, domestic violence, etc,  is art, or agree with you, I am in the wrong? So because my opinion isn't the popular one, that automatically makes me incorrect? You are welcome to think rap and the shit they sing about is art, but I, however, do not.

 

Also, as far as Cosby, I hope justice is served and they find out the truth. Wouldn't surprise me in the least if he was guilty, or if their all a bunch of liars, people are capable of terrible things.Nothing surprises me in this world anymore.

 

 

l o fucking l

 

What is art to you then?

[Kendrick 4,724]

he doesn't respect it, he said it isn't art. It's a primarily minority art form, how can you not see where this would come from? He doesn't respect a minority artform and his only reason is the content, it's obviously racially based.

Not at all. So just because he dislikes an art form that may be primarily performed by a certain race, it is automatically racist? I think not and if you were in court yourself you'd get laughed at for making such an uneducated assumption. Merica said he hates hip hop and rap because he doesn't like the views and base for it, he never said he hates a certain race. I hate when people play the race card no matter the argument, it's getting old.

[Sandro 251]

pxzero won the thread a page back.

 

Think of it in terms of that famous Evelyn Beatrice Hall comment: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

 

I don't listen to much rap/hip-hop. It's just not for me. The lyrics can be twisted sometimes, yeah. But so can other genres of music. Some films are pretty fucked up. Some paintings, draws, etc. I listen to Rammstein, while their lyrics are in German I know the translations of most of their songs and they sing about some fucked up stuff sometimes. Did Eminem cross a line? Eh, maybe. I don't know the full story upon what brought on that lyric. But isn't his whole thing 1) pissing people off and 2) that Slim Shady is a character? I highly doubt he's going to act on, or encourage anyone to act on what he raps about. It's a fucking art form, it's purpose is for the artist to express whatever they want to. Those who want to sit there arguing fucked up lyrics are "what's wrong with society," please show me some fucking scientific evidence instead of giving me your tinfoil-hat-wearing, Fox-News-watching bullshit. Thanks.

 

 

 

Lol how am I racist? because I don't like rap? So basically, what's happening here, is because I don't think rhyming about sexual abuse, murder, rape, domestic violence, etc,  is art, or agree with you, I am in the wrong? So because my opinion isn't the popular one, that automatically makes me incorrect? You are welcome to think rap and the shit they sing about is art, but I, however, do not.

 

I hope you realize there are rap songs out there that don't rap/sing about any of that stuff... Right? You sound like an immature child trying to be edgy, or some old fuck who thinks that the younger generation is destroying everything.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Sandro