Welfare/pension ruins the league

[jRuutu 2,323]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Power said:

 

Listen. You've lost yourself with grandiose ideas of what you want a sim league to become, not what it is.

 

There is no such thing in the VHL as someone doing welfare/pension and automatically being "labelled" as a "such and such" line player. Players play where they fit best on the teams. Even when the VHL was at it's most active, we've only ever had enough members to produce teams of 6 forwards, 4 defenders, and a goalie. In the best of situations. Sometimes a few inactives, with like 100 TPE wind up on a third line of some random team. But it rarely happens.

 

Players aren't positioned based on whether they do a PT or welfare. They are positioned based on their TPE, the team needs and make up, etc. Which is how it should be. It's not like when you claim Welfare for a week you sign up to be a "Welfare player." Half the players who have 800+ TPE aka the current top crop of the elite point earners in the league have claimed welfare at one point or another. That is all welfare is. It's help for people who don't have the time to get a point task done.

 

In no ways in a welfare player rewarded more than a person who does a point task. That is what I don't get about this anti welfare argument. You can say you put more work into a PT that someone does welfare, and that is true. That is one hundred percent true. But you also earn more TPE, consistently, through being active and doing PT's and earning up to your weekly cap than someone who just claims welfare. Ergo, you make a better player. All the top players in the league right now, all of them, have been either all PT earners or mostly PT earners with welfare in the odd week. 

 

In terms of the competition argument, how is it going to increase competition around the league if we make Welfare only earn 2 tpe per week? If anything, we lose members who don't want to build sub par players. Then those that stick around, go from building 500-700 TPE career players (depending on what else they do with welfare, that is the general pace) to 200-400 TPE players. The actives, seperate themselves even FURTHER from the welfare players so they literally don't even have to compete with fringe welfare players who do point tasks occasionally/other things. 

 

To some of your PT ideas and suggestions. You can do a lot of what you are asking for already. You don't have to be talented in GFX to earn TPE here. There is the Fan590 section, where you can either write, or do a player jersey, or a fan t-shirt as you suggested, or anything you want. Anything remotely at all that is VHL related with a little work and you earn 1 TPE for it. You can purchase an upgrade in the store for it to earn an extra TPE. The only real thing I think we could do to help out would be increase the PT cap from 9 to 12. The PT cap by the way, since a few in this thread seem confused by how this whole system works, is how much TPE you can earn per week. Half the people complaining about how unfair it is that we have welfare don't even earn up to the cap of 9 tpe per week as it is. So don't complain to me that you can't "elite" compared to welfare players when you aren't even going the full boat that half those welfare players DID DO well before you guys were ever in this league. 

 

The system we have now makes perfect sense. Those who are permanently on welfare/pension can create competent players. Those who mix and match welfare with activity can create good players. Those who are SUPER ACTIVE earn their weekly cap, do recruiting and extra things can create HoF players. You are rewarded MOST for putting the work in. The things you guys complain that don't exist, do exist. The numbers of super actives is lower than we'd like it to be, but reducing welfare doesn't magically change that number. 

Well I admitted that perhaps the welfare is not as big issue I first though it was, but it´s still a issue,same with pension and should be given lots of attention along with the recruiting new players.

 

I also admitted that perhaps the easiest solution is to bump the tpe you get from doing the weekly tasks instead of taking points away from the welfare/pension people. 

 

I´m well aware that I´m one of the newest members here, but I also think that as a first gen member I can share my opinion about some things here and hope something might happen that makes the league better experience for all.  This welfare/system that we have here now is not making it the best possible experience.

 

I´m not ever going to do the same amount of work some of the guys have done before me and doing at the moment. I´m not trying to be elite and I don´t even want to be elite, I´m just trying to understand why system like this is even here and why some of you are so negative about even thinking about possible changes to welfare/pension. It´s almost like you don´t want your easy ride to end in VHL and you would have to start doing the things some of you guys did in the past with previous players. 

 

It´s almost like some of you guys want to have as much as free tpe you possible can without doing weekly tasks? If you are not aiming to be a elite player and choose the career as a welfare/pension player and accept the fact that you are always going to be weaker than the ´elite´ players who do the weekly tasks, why does it matter if the TPE you get from welfare or pension would be smaller than now? 

 

I don´t have the best ideas and I´m not even going to suggest that  I know what I´m talking about, but you guys should be more open to changes and new ideas. Especially during times like this when there is not that many new faces coming into the league to make the army of welfare/pensioners look smaller.

 

 

 

 

 

[Devise 4,475]

10 minutes ago, jRuutu said:

Well I admitted that perhaps the welfare is not as big issue I first though it was, but it´s still a issue,same with pension and should be given lots of attention along with the recruiting new players.

 

I also admitted that perhaps the easiest solution is to bump the tpe you get from doing the weekly tasks instead of taking points away from the welfare/pension people. 

 

I´m well aware that I´m one of the newest members here, but I also think that as a first gen member I can share my opinion about some things here and hope something might happen that makes the league better experience for all.  This welfare/system that we have here now is not making it the best possible experience.

 

I´m not ever going to do the same amount of work some of the guys have done before me and doing at the moment. I´m not trying to be elite and I don´t even want to be elite, I´m just trying to understand why system like this is even here and why some of you are so negative about even thinking about possible changes to welfare/pension. It´s almost like you don´t want your easy ride to end in VHL and you would have to start doing the things some of you guys did in the past with previous players. 

 

It´s almost like some of you guys want to have as much as free tpe you possible can without doing weekly tasks? If you are not aiming to be a elite player and choose the career as a welfare/pension player and accept the fact that you are always going to be weaker than the ´elite´ players who do the weekly tasks, why does it matter if the TPE you get from welfare or pension would be smaller than now? 

 

I don´t have the best ideas and I´m not even going to suggest that  I know what I´m talking about, but you guys should be more open to changes and new ideas. Especially during times like this when there is not that many new faces coming into the league to make the army of welfare/pensioners look smaller.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nowhere am I attacking you, your ideas, or your right to have ideas. I still have yet to see the counter argument that justifies why lowering welfare does anything. Even in this response, where is that argument? 

 

@Draper and I seemed to be the only two in the BoG halfway open to a rebranding of the league in S50 with an updated sim engine and some evaluation to our current systems. I should say a bunch of others were "open" to it, but didn't really see it as necessary and thought it was just being new for the sake of being new. Which is what happens to a lot of new ideas. 

 

But in this specific case of welfare I still haven't seen the argument to justify why it should be changed. For me personally it has nothing to do with free TPE. I'm a fringe welfare player who does his PT when he can. Before welfare existed I was a PT guy who if I missed a PT for a week because I was busy it wasn't a big deal. It's why all my players range from 600-900 TPE. I'll likely never make that 1000+ TPE elite guy. But for a lot of people here, as posted in this thread it isn't like they are leveraging welfare to earn free TPE since they don't feel like doing PT. It's more, "I like the VHL still and want to be able to contribute by building a competent player to help a team/franchise out, (and it's teammates by the way) but I dno't have the drive or time to do PT's weekly anymore." Welfare keeps those players in the league. We've discussed this. 

 

You say "it's still an issue, and so is pension." I have yet to see a real argument presented in this thread as to what that issue actually is. 

Edited March 29, 2016 by Mr. Power

[Molholt 2,183]

17 minutes ago, Molholt said:

Welfare + Pension means doing a PT is worth 2 points to someone without it. Which, when thought of like that, is kinda silly. 

 

I can post my name and get 4 TPE, or I can write 500 words and get 6. So, my 500 words are "worth" 2 TPE. When 150 words are also "worth" 1 TPE in the VHL.com section. So 1 TPE is "worth" 150 words or 350 words. When valued as such, those obviously don't line up much. 

 

If Welfare + Pension was 3 TPE, the 500 words would be "worth" 3 TPE. So, 1 TPE would be worth 150 words (VHL.com) OR 166 words (article). That's a more fair balance of worth to words ratio.

 

Make Welfare worth 2 TPE (already is) and Pension worth 1 (currently can be 2) and still allow the purchase of a +1. Then the purchase has a more fair value, the work done for PTs is a more fair evaluation of the work put in, based on other methods of earning TPE in the league. 

 

@Mr. Power Here's your argument to the "issue." The value of a PT is inflated compared to other methods of earning TPE, pension included.

[Devise 4,475]

Also for the record, and for all that people that claim "Old Boys Club" leveraging recreates and all that garbage. I am not just saltily replying in this thread attempting to shut down conversation. Let me hear it. I'm listening to ideas, and so is the Blue Team and BoG trust me. 

 

But the argument has to be there. You can't just say "welfare is bad because older members earn free tpe, and make okay players and now my okay player since i'm a fringe inactive isn't as good. Maybe you should change it so the league rewards activity more."  I mean you can say that. But how can you expect any of us to take that comment seriously? Welfare players don't hurt the league with their presence first and formost. That has been proven on almost every level of the league. From league parity, to fuller rosters, to fringe welfare players having jobs/contributing around the boards the list goes on. 

 

The second aspect of that argument which rings is false is that the league should reward activity more. We do. The evidence shows that. O"Mally @Green was probably the most active member during much of his players primary career. He finished as one of the best players to play in the league in ages. That is rewarding activity. That is the reward you get. What other rewards would you like? I'm confused. Isn't the reward of activity supposed to be the promise of being the best player you can be? That seems to be the case here....

[jRuutu 2,323]

Just now, Mr. Power said:

 

Nowhere am I attacking you, your ideas, or your right to have ideas. I still have yet to see the counter argument that justifies why lowering welfare does anything. Even in this response, where is that argument? 

 

@Draper and I seemed to be the only two in the BoG halfway open to a rebranding of the league in S50 with an updated sim engine and some evaluation to our current systems. I should say a bunch of others were "open" to it, but didn't really see it as necessary and thought it was just being new for the sake of being new. Which is what happens to a lot of new ideas. 

What you mean with a argument?  A reason why the welfare/pension should get you less tpe than now? 

 

I actually like the idea of bumping up the payout you can get from point tasks more than taking away from the struggling welfare/pensioner players. Still going to say that lowering the welfare/pension is a good thing for the league on a long run. Then you at least see where this league is at really when all of the +20 players who use it most of the weeks will be forced to do something. Either leave or adjust to the changes.  Shake the structures little bit.

 

If you guys are not going to do anything to the welfare/pension how about even sending a survey to the players who use it the most? Ask why they use welfare/pension instead of doing weekly tasks? 

 

 

 

 

[Devise 4,475]

1 minute ago, Molholt said:

 

@Mr. Power Here's your argument to the "issue." The value of a PT is inflated compared to other methods of earning TPE, pension included.

 

That would work if a Media Spot was just words. A Fan590 is worth less because you can literally write it about anything. Media Spots, while looser now, still have elements of grading. I could not write a media spot about how a cat ran to my house and chased me around. It's a recognition that some people have a harder time coming up with 400-500 words of something that is league related than bullshitting for 2 paragraphs. 

 

I'm not against changing the scale for media spots or point tasks. But why? Is the goal to eliminate the other methods of earning TPE in the league? Capped even. So you want to earn the weekly cap with the MS and not have to do anything else to hit that cap? So nobody would participate in VHL Trivia, or the Fantasy Section then all they need to do is one media spot. Then what happens to the Magazine people? They already earn 7. So now a MS is worth more, or do we just bump that to the cap and eliminate all side activities? 

[Devise 4,475]

3 minutes ago, jRuutu said:

What you mean with a argument?  A reason why the welfare/pension should get you less tpe than now? 

 

I actually like the idea of bumping up the payout you can get from point tasks more than taking away from the struggling welfare/pensioner players. Still going to say that lowering the welfare/pension is a good thing for the league on a long run. Then you at least see where this league is at really when all of the +20 players who use it most of the weeks will be forced to do something. Either leave or adjust to the changes.  Shake the structures little bit.

 

If you guys are not going to do anything to the welfare/pension how about even sending a survey to the players who use it the most? Ask why they use welfare/pension instead of doing weekly tasks? 

 

 

 

 

 

How can losing members be a good thing for the league? 

 

To the second bolded, have you not been reading this thread? Half the people or more who use welfare/pension weekly have said why they use it. 

Edited March 29, 2016 by Mr. Power

[Molholt 2,183]

Just now, Mr. Power said:

 

That would work if a Media Spot was just words. A Fan590 is worth less because you can literally write it about anything. Media Spots, while looser now, still have elements of grading. I could not write a media spot about how a cat ran to my house and chased me around. It's a recognition that some people have a harder time coming up with 400-500 words of something that is league related than bullshitting for 2 paragraphs. 

 

I'm not against changing the scale for media spots or point tasks. But why? Is the goal to eliminate the other methods of earning TPE in the league? Capped even. So you want to earn the weekly cap with the MS and not have to do anything else to hit that cap? So nobody would participate in VHL Trivia, or the Fantasy Section then all they need to do is one media spot. Then what happens to the Magazine people? They already earn 7. So now a MS is worth more, or do we just bump that to the cap and eliminate all side activities? 

 

So you're saying the value is even worse? Furthers the point. The value of the work put into a PT is cheapened by the current scale for Welfare + Pension. I didn't say a single word about increasing the payment for PTs, I just said drop the 2nd level of Pension.

[jRuutu 2,323]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Power said:

Also for the record, and for all that people that claim "Old Boys Club" leveraging recreates and all that garbage. I am not just saltily replying in this thread attempting to shut down conversation. Let me hear it. I'm listening to ideas, and so is the Blue Team and BoG trust me. 

 

But the argument has to be there. You can't just say "welfare is bad because older members earn free tpe, and make okay players and now my okay player since i'm a fringe inactive isn't as good. Maybe you should change it so the league rewards activity more."  I mean you can say that. But how can you expect any of us to take that comment seriously? Welfare players don't hurt the league with their presence first and formost. That has been proven on almost every level of the league. From league parity, to fuller rosters, to fringe welfare players having jobs/contributing around the boards the list goes on. 

 

The second aspect of that argument which rings is false is that the league should reward activity more. We do. The evidence shows that. O"Mally @Green was probably the most active member during much of his players primary career. He finished as one of the best players to play in the league in ages. That is rewarding activity. That is the reward you get. What other rewards would you like? I'm confused. Isn't the reward of activity supposed to be the promise of being the best player you can be? That seems to be the case here....

You absolutely can say ´Welfare/pension is bad because older members earn free tpe´ when they get 4 or 5 of it for ´free´.  Welfare/pension people hurt the league when they come here and comment that they would leave if something happens to pension/welfare. That does not send a good signal about the system in my opinion.

 

Green/O´Malley did the work and is a legend, but why don´t the league push other people do the same with every player?  

[Devise 4,475]

1 minute ago, Molholt said:

 

So you're saying the value is even worse? Furthers the point. The value of the work put into a PT is cheapened by the current scale for Welfare + Pension. I didn't say a single word about increasing the payment for PTs, I just said drop the 2nd level of Pension.

 

How much TPE per career do you guys actually think people make from Pension? Like, honestly.

 

Here let's do the math for you. An average VHL season is two months, so roughly 8 weeks. You know what though with off-season and other stuff lets round that up to 10, I mean this is only helping your argument that they make WAY TOO MUCH compared to other players, right? 

 

Alright, so that 40 TPE per season for someone ONLY on welfare. If they did nothing, not a single league thing but welfare for their whole careers they would earn...320 career TPE. That is assuming this member qualifies for that pension. So your telling me, it's too easy for someone to come into this league, create two 400+ TPE players (something by the way they'd have to do with point tasks, since even if you had the best pension plan and an upgrade you'd only earn 400 TPE in a career. Which can't happen until you've created two players who met those requirements anyways) and then become an average VHL player? 

 

All the players who earn more than 400 TPE per career have to do more than welfare. HAVE TO. There is no two ways around it. That means every player above 400 TPE contributes to the league in other ways. 

[jRuutu 2,323]

6 minutes ago, Mr. Power said:

 

How can losing members be a good thing for the league? 

 

To the second bolded, have you not been reading this thread? Half the people or more who use welfare/pension weekly have said why they use it. 

How you know they all leave if you make the welfare/pension stricter than now? Some of them might, but do you really need people like that here? If they are so valuable to the league, why don´t they do the weekly tasks?  If the league is so awesome, why smaller welfare/pension even matters to a player like that?  If they accept the fact they are ´worse´ than someone who does weekly tasks, why is  a player on welfare/pension willing to go for good if something happens to welfare/pension?

 

 

Edited March 29, 2016 by jRuutu

[Devise 4,475]

2 minutes ago, jRuutu said:

You absolutely can say ´Welfare/pension is bad because older members earn free tpe´ when they get 4 or 5 of it for ´free´.  Welfare/pension people hurt the league when they come here and comment that they would leave if something happens to pension/welfare. That does not send a good signal about the system in my opinion.

 

Green/O´Malley did the work and is a legend, but why don´t the league push other people do the same with every player?  

 

How aren't we pushing that message? The message isn't "claim welfare and create a great player." Because that isn't true. You can't just claim welfare and create a great player. The message is, "be super active earn 1000+ TPE and become a legend." Which is...how it is. How it's kind of always been. The top TPE earners of every era almost always are your award winners etc. Not every time, but usually. The majority of HoF consideration players are in the same boat. What other ways can we "push" people to be active? Remove welfare doesn't push people to be active it punishes those who aren't active anymore, or casuals who come in and only want to contribute slightly no longer have a place to have fun. All you do is kill the member base. 

[jRuutu 2,323]

Just now, Mr. Power said:

 

How aren't we pushing that message? The message isn't "claim welfare and create a great player." Because that isn't true. You can't just claim welfare and create a great player. The message is, "be super active earn 1000+ TPE and become a legend." Which is...how it is. How it's kind of always been. The top TPE earners of every era almost always are your award winners etc. Not every time, but usually. The majority of HoF consideration players are in the same boat. What other ways can we "push" people to be active? Remove welfare doesn't push people to be active it punishes those who aren't active anymore, or casuals who come in and only want to contribute slightly no longer have a place to have fun. All you do is kill the member base. 

But you can create a good player while on welfare/pension. 

 

I´m not saying remove the welfare/Pension. You should make it more strict and try to get some of them to do the weekly tasks instead.

[Devise 4,475]

1 minute ago, jRuutu said:

How you know they all leave if you make the welfare/pension stricter than now? Some of them might, but do you really need people like that here? If they are so valuable to the league, why don´t they do the weekly tasks?  If the league is so awesome, why smaller welfare/pension even matters to a player like that?  If they accept the fact they are ´worse´ than someone who does weekly tasks, why is  a player on welfare/pension willing to go for good if something happens to welfare/pension?

 

 

 

Lets not overavlue a point task here. It's something that is good for the league I agree. But it's not like it's the end all be all. 

 

Also nobody said the league is so awesome. Stop putting words into my mouth. This isn't me going "hey man fuck you welfare is the shit and we are awesome let's keep it that way." Recognize that I'm giving you the time of day and listening to all the ideas in this thread please. That is the point of this. It's not my fault the ideas presented make zero sense. Your saying "hey lets kick out all the members who built this league, saved it from dying several times because all they want to do is make marginal players by claiming a few free TPE! That way we can have no more members, and the few people left can be super active and we'll have a 6 team league!" 

 

 

[CowboyinAmerica 2,735]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Power said:

 

How much TPE per career do you guys actually think people make from Pension? Like, honestly.

 

Here let's do the math for you. An average VHL season is two months, so roughly 8 weeks. You know what though with off-season and other stuff lets round that up to 10, I mean this is only helping your argument that they make WAY TOO MUCH compared to other players, right? 

 

Alright, so that 40 TPE per season for someone ONLY on welfare. If they did nothing, not a single league thing but welfare for their whole careers they would earn...320 career TPE. That is assuming this member qualifies for that pension. So your telling me, it's too easy for someone to come into this league, create two 400+ TPE players (something by the way they'd have to do with point tasks, since even if you had the best pension plan and an upgrade you'd only earn 400 TPE in a career. Which can't happen until you've created two players who met those requirements anyways) and then become an average VHL player? 

 

All the players who earn more than 400 TPE per career have to do more than welfare. HAVE TO. There is no two ways around it. That means every player above 400 TPE contributes to the league in other ways. 

 

Lol. That math is easy when you ignore training camps, giveaways, both season and weekly predictions, practice facility, the fact that most careers are nine seasons including pre draft years, Jala's fantasy league, trivia...

[Molholt 2,183]

Just now, Mr. Power said:

 

How much TPE per career do you guys actually think people make from Pension? Like, honestly.

 

Here let's do the math for you. An average VHL season is two months, so roughly 8 weeks. You know what though with off-season and other stuff lets round that up to 10, I mean this is only helping your argument that they make WAY TOO MUCH compared to other players, right? 

 

Alright, so that 40 TPE per season for someone ONLY on welfare. If they did nothing, not a single league thing but welfare for their whole careers they would earn...320 career TPE. That is assuming this member qualifies for that pension. So your telling me, it's too easy for someone to come into this league, create two 400+ TPE players (something by the way they'd have to do with point tasks, since even if you had the best pension plan and an upgrade you'd only earn 400 TPE in a career. Which can't happen until you've created two players who met those requirements anyways) and then become an average VHL player? 

 

All the players who earn more than 400 TPE per career have to do more than welfare. HAVE TO. There is no two ways around it. That means every player above 400 TPE contributes to the league in other ways. 

 

The valuation of the TPE is fairly clear. This diverting off isn't really on topic, at least not what I'm discussing. 

 

The fact is, with 4 TPE available through welfare + pension, you're telling me 500 words (+ being league related, images, color, formatting, etc.) is worth 2 TPE. Whereas 1 TPE is valued at 150 words for a VHL.com article. All I'm saying, is that if you took away Pension Plan II, you'd be valuing the PT at 166 words/1 TPE instead of 350 words/1TPE. 

 

By your own math, a welfare player would lose out 80 TPE over a full career. Which is easily made up by all of the things you left out of your equation that people would do, predictions, giveaways, donations, special PTs, etc. Still, not exactly relevant to my point - Pension cheapens the value of putting in work to the league, thereby encouraging less people to actually do the work when its value is stripped.

[Devise 4,475]

1 minute ago, CowboyinAmerica said:

 

Lol. That math is easy when you ignore training camps, giveaways, both season and weekly predictions, practice facility, the fact that most careers are nine seasons including pre draft years, Jala's fantasy league, trivia...

 

People have to post on the board, in locker rooms, accept contracts, and participate in league activities to earn that. Those contributions are worth those extra TPE imo. 

[Devise 4,475]

Show me the evidence that says "welfare players earn too much TPE compared to elite players". I'll create a welfare player and do nothing but welfare + side activities. Never a point task. I gaurantee you, if you earn 9 TPE per week + do side activities you'll finish 500+ TPE ahead of me. The gap is huge. Want to be great in this league? Be super active. That is and ALWAYS has been the message. Welfare hasn't changed that. 

[jRuutu 2,323]

1 minute ago, Mr. Power said:

 

Lets not overavlue a point task here. It's something that is good for the league I agree. But it's not like it's the end all be all. 

 

Also nobody said the league is so awesome. Stop putting words into my mouth. This isn't me going "hey man fuck you welfare is the shit and we are awesome let's keep it that way." Recognize that I'm giving you the time of day and listening to all the ideas in this thread please. That is the point of this. It's not my fault the ideas presented make zero sense. Your saying "hey lets kick out all the members who built this league, saved it from dying several times because all they want to do is make marginal players by claiming a few free TPE! That way we can have no more members, and the few people left can be super active and we'll have a 6 team league!" 

 

 

Nobody is kicking them out. You can still stay and do the point tasks like you used to do in the past?or you can stay on the welfare/pension.

 

 If you like the league so much, you will stay even if the welfare/pension is getting tweaked? No? 

[Devise 4,475]

3 minutes ago, Molholt said:

 

The valuation of the TPE is fairly clear. This diverting off isn't really on topic, at least not what I'm discussing. 

 

The fact is, with 4 TPE available through welfare + pension, you're telling me 500 words (+ being league related, images, color, formatting, etc.) is worth 2 TPE. Whereas 1 TPE is valued at 150 words for a VHL.com article. All I'm saying, is that if you took away Pension Plan II, you'd be valuing the PT at 166 words/1 TPE instead of 350 words/1TPE. 

 

By your own math, a welfare player would lose out 80 TPE over a full career. Which is easily made up by all of the things you left out of your equation that people would do, predictions, giveaways, donations, special PTs, etc. Still, not exactly relevant to my point - Pension cheapens the value of putting in work to the league, thereby encouraging less people to actually do the work when its value is stripped.

 

You can't earn 4 TPE from Welfare unless you've created two players in this league, and been active. *laughs* The extra TPE bonus to those members is a reward for the amount of work they put into this league. The fact that you can't do it right out of the gate is the point. It means in order to create "more" eventual welfare players people have to show up and be active. You also ignore the fact that the comparison isn't between Welfare and a Media Spot. Welfares base value is 2, a media spots is a 6. The members earning Welfare at 4, already created players and that value factors in because thats the point. The other factor your ignoring is that if your being super active your not just earning the extra +1 or 2 TPE per week over a recreated welfare guy who has the bonus. If your earning 9, your earning anywhere from 4-5 more per week. Last I checked the TPE whores in this league can finish around 1300+ TPE if they are super active. There is a big gap between that number, and the somehow "80" your talking about. 

[Devise 4,475]

4 minutes ago, jRuutu said:

Nobody is kicking them out. You can still stay and do the point tasks like you used to do in the past?or you can stay on the welfare/pension.

 

 If you like the league so much, you will stay even if the welfare/pension is getting tweaked? No? 

 

Nobody wants to build a terrible player. Nobody is going to stick around to build 200 TPE players. Before we had welfare, members chose between being marginal inactives or quitting. A lot of members have too much pride in the quality of players they attempted to build than to stick with a player that did nothing. Can someone explain to me how welfare hurts others though? How does it affect you? Or someone trying to earn TPE legit? How? If you put in the work you will always out earn them. ALWAYS. 

[jRuutu 2,323]

Just now, Mr. Power said:

 

Nobody wants to build a terrible player. Nobody is going to stick around to build 200 TPE players. Before we had welfare, members chose between being marginal inactives or quitting. A lot of members have too much pride in the quality of players they attempted to build than to stick with a player that did nothing. Can someone explain to me how welfare hurts others though? How does it affect you? Or someone trying to earn TPE legit? How? If you put in the work you will always out earn them. ALWAYS. 

Why are the players on welfare/pension if they don´t want to build terrible players ? There are over 20 in most of the weeks?

 

Pension/welfare starts to hurt when you are doing the weekly tasks and someone just posts in one thread and gets 4 or 5.  That welfare/pension player can still be a effective player in the league. Perhaps not a elite level, but in a two line league it takes some motivation to do the weekly thing when some guys collect 4 or 5 for ´free´ and still gets the job done.  

[Devise 4,475]

11 minutes ago, jRuutu said:

Why are the players on welfare/pension if they don´t want to build terrible players ? There are over 20 in most of the weeks?

 

Pension/welfare starts to hurt when you are doing the weekly tasks and someone just posts in one thread and gets 4 or 5.  That welfare/pension player can still be a effective player in the league. Perhaps not a elite level, but in a two line league it takes some motivation to do the weekly thing when some guys collect 4 or 5 for ´free´ and still gets the job done.  

 

In a lot of cases, because they are in the later stages of their VHL member career. They have either built enough players that they don't want to go full board anymore, or they don't have enough free time but care about the activity and enjoy aspects of the league. They would quit the league if Welfare as 2 only per week (several members here have stated that.) Regardless of whether I would quit the league (I wouldn't) or any of that, or what you would do. Those are facts. We have to deal with them. 

 

Second, you don't earn just a media spot per week. You realize that right? How many times do I have to repeat it. There is a WEEKLY TPE CAP. Welfare players who aren't not motivated to put the time in even for a media spot almost NEVER earn up to that weekly cap. Ergo, you don't just earn 6 or 7 per week, by putting in work versus the 4 or 5 these members earn. You can earn up to 9. Earn 9? You out earn them. Every week it adds up. @Molholt we can argue about how much each member earns on side activities as much as I want. But here is a clear point fact for you. If I never did a point task, never took up a league job, and only participated in the Yearly Award Predictions, VHL Trivia, VHL Fantasy League, as well as claimed weflare at 4-5 TPE per week, I would NEVER be able to hit 1000 TPE. Never. The Welfare even at the 5, assuming I had it very week can only make up for what, 500 TPE if we include the minors? The most I'd be lucky to hit is 900 and that is in the best of situations. Hell we have a plethora of players who do a mix of point tasks, league jobs, welfare and still do the off-season stuff and their career totals fall in the 800's! That is while being a contributing member doing things other than just welfare. Meanwhile, if your a super active, you earn anywhere from 1000-1300+. 

Edited March 29, 2016 by Mr. Power

[Molholt 2,183]

There isn't a point in continuing a discussion if you continue to ignore the basis of the argument or bring up needless side points. At no point am I saying that someone who is active will earn less than a welfare guy or that a welfare guy will earn as much as an elite earner. I'm not arguing that so stop trying to make it into that. I'm also not arguing that an active person only earns 1 or 2 more than a welfare guy. 

 

I'm simply stating that the value of welfare is much greater than the value of putting in the work to do a PT, and therefore, you're encouraging people to not put in the work to do a PT and to be less active. Less active is not a good thing. If you can't see that and just want to focus on tertiary things that aren't the basis of this thinking, then I'm wasting my time. 

 

You're stuck on career earnings and extra TPE opportunities and how much more an active can receive. That isn't the point. The point is that welfare is not only an unfair value in terms of TPE earned, but it actually cheapens the value of doing the work for a PT by making the benefit smaller and unequal to other TPE opportunities. 

[Devise 4,475]

1 minute ago, Molholt said:

There isn't a point in continuing a discussion if you continue to ignore the basis of the argument or bring up needless side points. At no point am I saying that someone who is active will earn less than a welfare guy or that a welfare guy will earn as much as an elite earner. I'm not arguing that so stop trying to make it into that. I'm also not arguing that an active person only earns 1 or 2 more than a welfare guy. 

 

I'm simply stating that the value of welfare is much greater than the value of putting in the work to do a PT, and therefore, you're encouraging people to not put in the work to do a PT and to be less active. Less active is not a good thing. If you can't see that and just want to focus on tertiary things that aren't the basis of this thinking, then I'm wasting my time. 

 

You're stuck on career earnings and extra TPE opportunities and how much more an active can receive. That isn't the point. The point is that welfare is not only an unfair value in terms of TPE earned, but it actually cheapens the value of doing the work for a PT by making the benefit smaller and unequal to other TPE opportunities. 

 

Okay, I see what your saying now. My apologies. 

 

So the bold, is all true. Provided you've created two players with 400 TPE though. The value of a PT as an older member who has the Pension upgrade is in fact greater than the value of a PT. A PT can earn you a max of 7, welfare a max of 5 at that level. New members to the league that value argument isn't there because a PT is always worth enough more than the 2-3 max they can earn off welfare. 

 

In this capacity, the purpose of taking more older members off PT's and to welfare actually probably benefits. As a lot of people here have stated they would of left the league if it wasn't for welfare. Whether any of us like it or not recruitment has been the biggest concern the VHL has had. More often than not a lot of the primary jobs in this league are held by older members/recreates, a decent number of which claim welfare consistently or throughout their careers. For various reasons, but a big one being the point you mention, the amount of TPE difference is negligible for members who know they will be around the league/active and doing other things. 

 

But we don't really have an influx of new members to replace those people. It's why just "cutting them loose" hurts the league. In the last several months we've had some shaky transitions for some key parts of the league and some uncertainty, as you would know because you were apart of it. I'm not saying that means the league is dying or anything like that. But due to the lack of new faces, finding people to replace jobs isn't as snappy as we want it to be. And the amount of new faces we see in those categories doesn't help matters. It's why welfare was instituted in the first place if I recall. To keep members who would otherwise leave around and participating. The TPE numbers were determined very carefully, particularly about the needing X amount of 400 TPE players before you get rewarded. We felt with how niche we are, and how a lot of the really active guys here end up creating 3+ players, that doing as much possible to encourage old faces to return, and fading faces to stick around would help keep the core of the league remaining even as we go through any transitions. For the most part that has been the case. Before we switched sites recruitment I felt was much better, and the welfare system and the league in general were humming along pretty well. I think the welfare issue is simply moot though the moment we have more members. Which is why I think it's a non issue. 

 

I can understand the frustration of someone who sits there and see's another member plainly earning 1 less TPE than them for posting their name. But at the same time if I put myself in that members shoes I'd realize that the member who is doing that has "earned the right" to do it. That I could very much earn the right to do the same thing. Also that if I did all the weekly things I'd still have a better player than them anyways. And the player comparison stuff is something that I've never really got anyways, but that is just me. I know some make a big deal about earning the most tpe from their draft classes and things like that. I just think if your that type of person then you should be earning 9 a week anyways, and then you won't have the issues of wondering how people who do less work have more TPE than you.