NYA/RIG ; S51 Off-Season

[Devise 4,475]

1 minute ago, Higgins said:

 

That example is a bit of a stretch. Titans forfeited a draft pick to get Jacob, just like many other teams have in the past to acquire a GM.

 

True but Toast obtained his goalie legally through the GM rule. Also I don't see the value issue here Kendrick, Grigory is 3 seasons younger and Toast has full control over how active he is. It's also a position NY only actually needed to fill this season. 

[Kendrick 4,724]

4 minutes ago, Mr. Power said:

Oh I see your talking about intentionally trading his own older GM player switching it and then enabling himself to loop it for the future. 

 

Yeah I don't know I'd imagine that it would be tough to line up both having the trade partners and able to acquire your own project two player to make it happen. Keep in mind in your Greg example, Greg isn't allowed to retire and recreate another second player. He was granted Thrower and once Jarvi retires he would then have to ensure Thrower is eligible for the project two lottery, so Thrower becoming his GM player should be fine in that situation.

Not exactly. If there is a 3 year difference he can create a 2nd player right away (at least thats what the 2nd player rule is now in place for).

 

From my understanding, once you are granted a 2nd player, you can also have 2 players created in this league (they just have to be 3 seasons apart).

[scoop 3,255]

5 minutes ago, Kendrick said:

Okay as you can see by my other responses I understood this deal was good now, bit was the future I was questioning. The part in the rule book that says "GM Rule" is the part I was wondering about and a part I didn't see until now (because of the addition I was used to seeing that in there).

 

What my concern/question was is this:

 

If a GM's first player (John Wilson) was acquired with the GM Rule and before his 7th season he is traded from Team A to Team B, then in that same off-season would he be able to transfer that title to Mike Smith (his 2nd Player acquired through the draft by Team A)? Then 5-6 seasons down the line he creates another player (Roger Williams) after Wilson had retired, transfer the title to Williams and trade Smith away? Basically meaning he never really has to go out an acquire any of his players. Am I lost in my own thinking?

But if we're saying he drafted Mike Smith, then his player was available in the draft. And how does he get Roger Williams? Through the draft or trade, he still would have been available in the draft since he wasn't a GM rule acquisition. If anything, transferring the title like this (I think) would actually decrease his use of the GM rule, meaning fewer free acquisitions.

 

An issue could arise with two players being on the same team, but I think a simple solution might be to say that the title can only be transferred to a younger player.

 

Consider this: the only way a player joins a team through the GM rule is when the previous GM player retires. If the GM title is passed to an older player, then that would theoretically reduce the amount of time between GM player recreates, giving an advantage. However, transferring the title to a younger player will extend the amount of time, which would seem like a slight disadvantage (although giving the GM a little more flexibility).

[Kendrick 4,724]

1 minute ago, Mr. Power said:

 

True but Toast obtained his goalie legally through the GM rule. Also I don't see the value issue here Kendrick, Grigory is 3 seasons younger and Toast has full control over how active he is. It's also a position NY only actually needed to fill this season. 

Toast can update both players fully, which 9 TPE per week, but he is gifting a team a Goalie headed into his prime for a prospect. At their points in their careers, Riga is getting jipped.

[Devise 4,475]

Also I'd like to welcome the VHL to what know is a public BoG thread on a detail we probably shouldn't of glossed over regarding GM player designation in a Project Two world.

 

 

[Frank 4,777]

Oooohhh this is getting intense.

[Kendrick 4,724]

2 minutes ago, Streetlight said:

But if we're saying he drafted Mike Smith, then his player was available in the draft. And how does he get Roger Williams? Through the draft or trade, he still would have been available in the draft since he wasn't a GM rule acquisition. If anything, transferring the title like this (I think) would actually decrease his use of the GM rule, meaning fewer free acquisitions.

 

An issue could arise with two players being on the same team, but I think a simple solution might be to say that the title can only be transferred to a younger player.

 

Consider this: the only way a player joins a team through the GM rule is when the previous GM player retires. If the GM title is passed to an older player, then that would theoretically reduce the amount of time between GM player recreates, giving an advantage. However, transferring the title to a younger player will extend the amount of time, which would seem like a slight disadvantage (although giving the GM a little more flexibility).

Doesn't that just create an issue of him keep transferring the designation to the younger player and getting him as a GM Rule player? I mean he could just keep that revolving door going, could he not?

[Devise 4,475]

1 minute ago, Kendrick said:

Toast can update both players fully, which 9 TPE per week, but he is gifting a team a Goalie headed into his prime for a prospect. At their points in their careers, Riga is getting jipped.

 

Jipped? Remember Toast approached me with this deal. He is rebuilding and his goalie would be in a tough place. NY needs a goalie but only for one season as I have Power. More than just TPE is considered for value, there is no way this is that lopsided considering all the factors in play.

[scoop 3,255]

Just now, Kendrick said:

Doesn't that just create an issue of him keep transferring the designation to the younger player and getting him as a GM Rule player? I mean he could just keep that revolving door going, could he not?

But how is he acquiring the younger player?

[Devise 4,475]

Just now, Kendrick said:

Doesn't that just create an issue of him keep transferring the designation to the younger player and getting him as a GM Rule player? I mean he could just keep that revolving door going, could he not?

 

Maybe add a clause that this designation change can only happen if the younger player in question is drafted or traded to the team. If it happens while your player is an undrafted prospect you'd have to give up a 2nd as any other GM forfeiture.

[Kendrick 4,724]

Ex.

 

Joel Jarvi is retiring so he transfer GM rule to NEW PLAYER

Thrower is retiring so he transfers GM rule to Thrower then to NEW PLAYER 2

NEW PLAYER is retiring so he transfers GM rule to NEW PLAYER 2 then to NEW PLAYER 3

 

So yeah @Streetlight is right, we just need to amend this by not allowing a GM to transfer the designation to an older player. All is done! Solved haha

[Frank 4,777]

Just permanently delete all GM 2nd players so Quebec wins the draft.

[Kendrick 4,724]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Power said:

 

Jipped? Remember Toast approached me with this deal. He is rebuilding and his goalie would be in a tough place. NY needs a goalie but only for one season as I have Power. More than just TPE is considered for value, there is no way this is that lopsided considering all the factors in play.

I don't care who approached who haha, that's not my point. My point is the deal is somewhat lopsided considering their career points and the ability he has of updating both at a full 9 TPE per week. It's obviously the first time we've seen something like this, but it doesn't look all that fairly weighted.

 

NY needed in the goalie for one season or not, they can go trade this (still able TPE earning) goalie to another team for pretty good draft picks.

[Kendrick 4,724]

4 minutes ago, Streetlight said:

But how is he acquiring the younger player?

The younger player is already in his system through draft. So technically yes you're right he acquired his second player using a pick, but once he is in his franchise he could keep transferring.

[Kendrick 4,724]

4 minutes ago, Mr. Power said:

 

Maybe add a clause that this designation change can only happen if the younger player in question is drafted or traded to the team. If it happens while your player is an undrafted prospect you'd have to give up a 2nd as any other GM forfeiture.

Or the post you liked above, less wordage.

[Devise 4,475]

Just now, Kendrick said:

I don't care who approached who haha, that's not my point. My point is the deal is somewhat lopsided considering their career points and the ability he has of updating both at a full 9 TPE per week. It's obviously the first time we've seen something like this, but it doesn't look all that fairly weighted.

 

NY needed in the goalie for one season or not, they can go trade this (still able TPE earning) goalie to another team for pretty good draft picks.

 

Honestly the actual value of goalies right now is all over the place market wise just due to age and team needs. 

[Toast 887]

1 minute ago, Kendrick said:

Toast can update both players fully, which 9 TPE per week, but he is gifting a team a Goalie headed into his prime for a prospect. At their points in their careers, Riga is getting jipped.

 

I wouldn't say jipped at all. What is Ilya offering to me right now? Nothing. He is a backup who will play his backup games and piss off for the season. It makes no sense to me to keep him around to just sit there again.

 

By trading him I set Riga up for the upcoming rebuild. Now I have a defender I can count on to build the future around and I won't be stuck with a goalie in the middle of his prime while I try to set up the other pieces around him.

 

Yes, TPE-wise... it's not the best deal. Considering everything else going on though? I think it's a fine deal for my future. Plus... fuck all the other teams in NA, I'm backing up NY any way I can.

 

Hell, some GMs said they weren't interested in the Kopralkov swap.

[Kendrick 4,724]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Power said:

 

Honestly the actual value of goalies right now is all over the place market wise just due to age and team needs. 

But given a few will retire shortly, he could hold on to his goalie and the value goes up next season. Just saying it doesn't look very even, no matter how you try to justify it.

[Kendrick 4,724]

3 minutes ago, Toast said:

 

I wouldn't say jipped at all. What is Ilya offering to me right now? Nothing. He is a backup who will play his backup games and piss off for the season. It makes no sense to me to keep him around to just sit there again.

 

By trading him I set Riga up for the upcoming rebuild. Now I have a defender I can count on to build the future around and I won't be stuck with a goalie in the middle of his prime while I try to set up the other pieces around him.

 

Yes, TPE-wise... it's not the best deal. Considering everything else going on though? I think it's a fine deal for my future. Plus... fuck all the other teams in NA, I'm backing up NY any way I can.

 

Hell, some GMs said they weren't interested in the Kopralkov swap.

Be what it is and if you feel that way that's fine, just figured a pick would come by to Riga along the way as well considering the lopsided TPE measure and the value the Goalie actually still has (deny it all you want but a goal with that TPE can still be a capable starter).

[Devise 4,475]

3 minutes ago, Kendrick said:

The younger player is already in his system through draft. So technically yes you're right he acquired his second player using a pick, but once he is in his franchise he could keep transferring.

 

Sure but he pays more in most cases acquiring his second player through draft and he has to be sure he can draft him. No certainty.

[JardyB10 4,834]

17 minutes ago, Kendrick said:

Toast can update both players fully, which 9 TPE per week, but he is gifting a team a Goalie headed into his prime for a prospect. At their points in their careers, Riga is getting jipped.

I agree that this trade is a bit lopsided, in the sense that it's rather uncommon for a player in his prime to get traded for a fresh prospect straight up. Like, I kind of feel like Ilya is worth a bit more than a 1st, maybe a 1st and a 2nd, but that's actually entirely unrelated to the ongoing debate.

 

But yeah, I see this is more or less resolved, but I feel like there was much a fuss about nothing here. As Streetlight pointed out, the only way transferring GM playership from one to another could be exploitable is if the two players were on the same team in the first place. And even then, I don't know if automatically making the younger player the GM player even needs to be the solution, rather it should just be that if a GM happens to acquire his second player, the GM player CAN'T change ownership at that point. So even if Riga traded for Grigory and kept Ilya, and later in life Ilya retired and re-created as Vladimir, Toast still can't turn around and trade Vladimir and make Grigory the GM player. Basically you can only make your 2nd player a GM player if you straight up swap them.

 

Or it could just go to the younger player automatically, either works. It's certainly less complicated.

[Toast 887]

Just now, Kendrick said:

Be what it is and if you feel that way that's fine, just figured a pick would come by to Riga along the way as well considering the lopsided TPE measure and the value the Goalie actually still has (deny it all you want but a goal with that TPE can still be a capable starter).

 

Fair enough. It's one of those deals we'll have to look back on a few seasons down the road. If Ilya proves to be another Smyl, this just may be a steal for Riga.  

[Tagger 2,722]

2 minutes ago, Toast said:

 

What is Ilya offering to me right now? Nothing. He is a backup who will play his backup games and piss off for the season. It makes no sense to me to keep him around to just sit there again.

Would you mind not talking shit about backup goalies please? We do a job and we DO IT DAMN WELL!

[Kendrick 4,724]

Just now, Mr. Power said:

 

Sure but he pays more in most cases acquiring his second player through draft and he has to be sure he can draft him. No certainty.

No certainty, but that's why I am discussing this because these are things that should've been sorted before hand in the BOG to avoid loopholes going forward.

 

*Before you comment saying "But this isn't a loophole"; I'm not calling it one but I am pointing that word out so we can amend some things for the rulebook going forward. I may look like a conspiracy theorist here but I'm just getting around those Matt Cornell situations. If this thread dies and we don't add anything, I think we will have wasted our time.

[Kendrick 4,724]

2 minutes ago, JardyB10 said:

I agree that this trade is a bit lopsided, in the sense that it's rather uncommon for a player in his prime to get traded for a fresh prospect straight up. Like, I kind of feel like Ilya is worth a bit more than a 1st, maybe a 1st and a 2nd, but that's actually entirely unrelated to the ongoing debate.

 

But yeah, I see this is more or less resolved, but I feel like there was much a fuss about nothing here. As Streetlight pointed out, the only way transferring GM playership from one to another could be exploitable is if the two players were on the same team in the first place. And even then, I don't know if automatically making the younger player the GM player even needs to be the solution, rather it should just be that if a GM happens to acquire his second player, the GM player CAN'T change ownership at that point. So even if Riga traded for Grigory and kept Ilya, and later in life Ilya retired and re-created as Vladimir, Toast still can't turn around and trade Vladimir and make Grigory the GM player. Basically you can only make your 2nd player a GM player if you straight up swap them.

I wouldn't call it fuss. I feel like something like this needs to be discussed and things need to be looked at for loopholes in any trade that someone is unclear about. I was unclear about a couple things here (one was the weight each team got) but that was cleared up as both GM's think they got a fair deal. To that I say "I don't think they did" which is said in a lot of trade threads.

 

To the other one, it is something we need to think about for the rule book though. The GM Rule part that Devise (who should change his stupid name back) posted is a little too small for my liking considering the amount of things that are now in play for the 2nd player/GM Rule. The rule should just state "GM Rule can't be transferred to the GM's older player". Thus he has to acquire his next player in the draft or trade.