RomanesEuntDomus 442 Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 Btw I think we are starting to run in circles with this, let's just agree to disagree. Link to comment https://vhlforum.com/topic/5404-claimedseason-36-award-predictions-part-i/page/2/#findComment-44424 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advantage 2,891 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) So basically if your team has a quality defense/team you can't win the award cause that is the only reason some guys have more shot blocks. Edited February 24, 2014 by Advantage Link to comment https://vhlforum.com/topic/5404-claimedseason-36-award-predictions-part-i/page/2/#findComment-44428 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devise 4,475 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I don't feel we are running in circles, I think you are just confused. I'm not saying that the top two way forward should be hits and points. I don't view it like that in the NHL. But this isn't the NHL. In the NHL people can watch the games. Things like a stick in a lane, making a smart defensive play can all be seen. You can't see those here. You want to be a man of the stats? The stats are all influenced by the skills you put in. You say yourself you still look at hits for this award. Hits are influenced by the amount players have in their strength and their checking. But then you say that Odin Tordahl doesn't deserve to be considered for this award because good two way forwards doesn't spend time in the penalty box. Odin Tordahl has hits hits because he put into checking. If he were to put into discipline his hits would go down, negating him for the award based on the stats the VHL has to use. Again, penalty killing time makes no sense. You act like this is the NHL. Like GM's and teams use players in certain situations relying on them at key times. That doesn't happen. I work lines for my own team and guess what? Rosters have usually at most 6 forwards and 4 D on them that are human players. You set lines, but if a player is fatigued, or in the box? They don't play. Stamina has to refill. You set line percentages. Victor himself has told you that Boom is his "go to" defensive forward in that situation. But for plenty of reasons all outside of the control of the player, or any player...Boom had less penalty kill minutes. But from the stats we can gauge,t he stats that players can control that influence what people win for awards Boom had them. Hits and points. It sucks, trust me I agree. But that is the VHL we live in. Link to comment https://vhlforum.com/topic/5404-claimedseason-36-award-predictions-part-i/page/2/#findComment-44429 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanesEuntDomus 442 Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 So basically if your team has a quality defense/team you can't win the award cause that is the only reason some guys have more shot blocks. I've already touched on this in a previous posts. Compare Todahls SBs to those of other players on strong teams or even teammates of this, and they are still incredibly low. Just to put it into perspective, Tordahl is the only player in the Top-20 scorers who has less than 20 SB. Every other Boulet candidate has at least around 40, some even have considerably more. Link to comment https://vhlforum.com/topic/5404-claimedseason-36-award-predictions-part-i/page/2/#findComment-44430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanesEuntDomus 442 Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 I don't feel we are running in circles, I think you are just confused. I'm not saying that the top two way forward should be hits and points. I don't view it like that in the NHL. But this isn't the NHL. In the NHL people can watch the games. Things like a stick in a lane, making a smart defensive play can all be seen. You can't see those here. You want to be a man of the stats? The stats are all influenced by the skills you put in. You say yourself you still look at hits for this award. Hits are influenced by the amount players have in their strength and their checking. But then you say that Odin Tordahl doesn't deserve to be considered for this award because good two way forwards doesn't spend time in the penalty box. Odin Tordahl has hits hits because he put into checking. If he were to put into discipline his hits would go down, negating him for the award based on the stats the VHL has to use. Again, penalty killing time makes no sense. You act like this is the NHL. Like GM's and teams use players in certain situations relying on them at key times. That doesn't happen. I work lines for my own team and guess what? Rosters have usually at most 6 forwards and 4 D on them that are human players. You set lines, but if a player is fatigued, or in the box? They don't play. Stamina has to refill. You set line percentages. Victor himself has told you that Boom is his "go to" defensive forward in that situation. But for plenty of reasons all outside of the control of the player, or any player...Boom had less penalty kill minutes. But from the stats we can gauge,t he stats that players can control that influence what people win for awards Boom had them. Hits and points. It sucks, trust me I agree. But that is the VHL we live in. Could we do without all the personal stuff like calling me confused or calling my posts hilariously awful? I have just a different opinion than you and you should learn to accept that, I'm not an idiot. Also, you are the guy that keeps bringing up the real NHL or claims that I said that Tordahl shouldn't win it because of his PIM. I didn't say any of that in the article and neither is it the reason why I don't think Tordahl should win it. Link to comment https://vhlforum.com/topic/5404-claimedseason-36-award-predictions-part-i/page/2/#findComment-44431 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advantage 2,891 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I've already touched on this in a previous posts. Compare Todahls SBs to those of other players on strong teams or even teammates of this, and they are still incredibly low. Just to put it into perspective, Tordahl is the only player in the Top-20 scorers who has less than 20 SB. Every other Boulet candidate has at least around 40, some even have considerably more. That is potentially cause when he is on the ice they have the puck more. Link to comment https://vhlforum.com/topic/5404-claimedseason-36-award-predictions-part-i/page/2/#findComment-44432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanesEuntDomus 442 Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 That is potentially cause when he is on the ice they have the puck more. This argument can be used the other way around as well though: Maybe Tordahl just has so many Hits because his team doesn't have the puck most of the time he is on the ice? I don't actually think this is the case, but there is no way to tell. Link to comment https://vhlforum.com/topic/5404-claimedseason-36-award-predictions-part-i/page/2/#findComment-44433 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advantage 2,891 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 This argument can be used the other way around as well though: Maybe Tordahl just has so many Hits because his team doesn't have the puck most of the time he is on the ice? I don't actually think this is the case, but there is no way to tell. Maybe. The shot block has been proven stupid in this league before (depends on the team, lines, etc) so I don't know if I agree with some of your points, but it's nice to see some actual discussion go into awards like Devise and I usually strive for. Link to comment https://vhlforum.com/topic/5404-claimedseason-36-award-predictions-part-i/page/2/#findComment-44434 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devise 4,475 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Could we do without all the personal stuff like calling me confused or calling my posts hilariously awful? I have just a different opinion than you and you should learn to accept that, I'm not an idiot. Also, you are the guy that keeps bringing up the real NHL or claims that I said that Tordahl shouldn't win it because of his PIM. I didn't say any of that in the article and neither is it the reason why I don't think Tordahl should win it. I'm not making it personal, I apologize if it comes off like that but nowhere did I call you an idiot. You are not what I'm calling awful, just the opinion of penalty minutes is one I do. Because that is completely out of the control of anyone. It is completely random. The reason I called you confused is because you assume we have different opinions. We don't. You have said several times now that a top two way forward is more than hits and points implying that I think that all a top two way forward is. I don't think that is what it is. But in the VHL the stats that we are afforded, how the stats can be controlled and linked to player performances for awards you do not have the appropriate amount of evidence to be able to consider any other stat more important than hits and points. That is in fact where we differ in our opinions, and my posts were attempts to clarify that fact. You have shown the desire to look up records and stats and I appreciate and enjoy that. That is much more than most people do when researching awards. However you have yet to justify any of the concerns regarding all the other stats and how players have no control or influence them. Also please don't jump around hoops. Saying that you don't think Boom should win it because he doesn't play enough minutes on the penalty kill, when he doesn't play enough minutes on the penalty kill because he takes too many penalties is essentially saying he takes too many penalties to be considered a top two day forward in your eyes. Because it is obvious you consider minutes played on the penalty kill and shots blocked when looking at the award. Again though, nothing personal about this. Just a friendly debate in my eyes. Link to comment https://vhlforum.com/topic/5404-claimedseason-36-award-predictions-part-i/page/2/#findComment-44435 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advantage 2,891 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Sounds crazy but maybe we should start calling the award the Top All-Around Forward Award.. Link to comment https://vhlforum.com/topic/5404-claimedseason-36-award-predictions-part-i/page/2/#findComment-44437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Baozi 1,658 Posted February 24, 2014 Moderator Share Posted February 24, 2014 Lol I doubt I'll ever win an award in this league. Appreciate it though! Not true! I'd even bet on it that you will win awards Link to comment https://vhlforum.com/topic/5404-claimedseason-36-award-predictions-part-i/page/2/#findComment-44440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Victor 10,940 Posted February 24, 2014 Admin Share Posted February 24, 2014 Sounds crazy but maybe we should start calling the award the Top All-Around Forward Award..That is the worst name I've heard since Vasteras. Link to comment https://vhlforum.com/topic/5404-claimedseason-36-award-predictions-part-i/page/2/#findComment-44441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devise 4,475 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I got it.... The Best Hit Pointing Machine? No? The Top Muscle Scorer? Hm....The Everything Bagel Award because it does a little bit of everything.... On a serious note, it has always been awarded to the top power forward with very little consideration being given to stats like shots blocked and plus minus. That is what it should be. Link to comment https://vhlforum.com/topic/5404-claimedseason-36-award-predictions-part-i/page/2/#findComment-44443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanesEuntDomus 442 Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 I'm not making it personal, I apologize if it comes off like that but nowhere did I call you an idiot. You are not what I'm calling awful, just the opinion of penalty minutes is one I do. Because that is completely out of the control of anyone. It is completely random. The reason I called you confused is because you assume we have different opinions. We don't. You have said several times now that a top two way forward is more than hits and points implying that I think that all a top two way forward is. I don't think that is what it is. But in the VHL the stats that we are afforded, how the stats can be controlled and linked to player performances for awards you do not have the appropriate amount of evidence to be able to consider any other stat more important than hits and points. That is in fact where we differ in our opinions, and my posts were attempts to clarify that fact. You have shown the desire to look up records and stats and I appreciate and enjoy that. That is much more than most people do when researching awards. However you have yet to justify any of the concerns regarding all the other stats and how players have no control or influence them. Also please don't jump around hoops. Saying that you don't think Boom should win it because he doesn't play enough minutes on the penalty kill, when he doesn't play enough minutes on the penalty kill because he takes too many penalties is essentially saying he takes too many penalties to be considered a top two day forward in your eyes. Because it is obvious you consider minutes played on the penalty kill and shots blocked when looking at the award. Again though, nothing personal about this. Just a friendly debate in my eyes. No hard feelings on my side . And since we have mostly taken this discussion to the chat now I think we are done here for now anyway . Link to comment https://vhlforum.com/topic/5404-claimedseason-36-award-predictions-part-i/page/2/#findComment-44445 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higgins 3,618 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Points Zhumbayev - 124 Tordahl - 106 Hits Zhumbayev - 264 Tordahl - 353 Shots Blocked (relative to total shots given up by a team, there's not a huge (3x) difference) Zhumbayev - 46 Tordahl - 15 In the end I hope it's a 5-5 tie but wouldn't be upset with either. Equally deserving arguments made for both. I think Devise needs to take a course in concise writing. Devise 1 Link to comment https://vhlforum.com/topic/5404-claimedseason-36-award-predictions-part-i/page/2/#findComment-44449 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotAVHLM-GM 1,858 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Bring out part II Link to comment https://vhlforum.com/topic/5404-claimedseason-36-award-predictions-part-i/page/2/#findComment-44455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanesEuntDomus 442 Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 What are your thoughts on the other trophies by the way? Especially the Virkkunen? Link to comment https://vhlforum.com/topic/5404-claimedseason-36-award-predictions-part-i/page/2/#findComment-44458 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Victor 10,940 Posted February 24, 2014 Admin Share Posted February 24, 2014 Everything else is the same as I'd expect. I too have no idea who will win the Virkkunen or even who I will vote for. Link to comment https://vhlforum.com/topic/5404-claimedseason-36-award-predictions-part-i/page/2/#findComment-44480 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kesler 1,514 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Future Playing Destinations In no particular order: NY TOR HEL DAV SEA QUE RIG CGY COL legit? Link to comment https://vhlforum.com/topic/5404-claimedseason-36-award-predictions-part-i/page/2/#findComment-44668 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higgins 3,618 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 legit? BOOM 1 Link to comment https://vhlforum.com/topic/5404-claimedseason-36-award-predictions-part-i/page/2/#findComment-44669 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOOM 8,745 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) I was like... But now... Edited February 25, 2014 by BOOM Kendrick 1 Link to comment https://vhlforum.com/topic/5404-claimedseason-36-award-predictions-part-i/page/2/#findComment-44670 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smarch 3,153 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Vote for Boom in whatever he wants! Link to comment https://vhlforum.com/topic/5404-claimedseason-36-award-predictions-part-i/page/2/#findComment-44692 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Victor 10,940 Posted February 25, 2014 Admin Share Posted February 25, 2014 Respect the Member Madness champion! Link to comment https://vhlforum.com/topic/5404-claimedseason-36-award-predictions-part-i/page/2/#findComment-44756 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smarch 3,153 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Claimed Link to comment https://vhlforum.com/topic/5404-claimedseason-36-award-predictions-part-i/page/2/#findComment-44774 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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