Grader Appeal Committee/Person

[iRockstar 307]

So, I've been thinking about this for a while, and I think with the amount of times people have complained about how harsh their grade is, there should be a person or small group of committee members that properly deal with this, and then that person get's an argument from each side and then post's it on the forum. 

 

And yes, I know we have a head grader, but to avoid bias since he is a grader in his own right, I think it should be someone who's been on here for a long time or has experience in grading that does this. That way, no one can say that the 'system' is fucking them over, but rather that they get treated fairly. If the majority of people agree with the grader who gave the original grade, then the grade sticks but if the people agree with the person who had their piece graded, then the grade will get reversed. The person/committee will then decide what the grade is reversed to. 

 

What do you think? 

[jack 498]

Is this an issue? Have you been complained to?

[iRockstar 307]

I've had a complaint or two before, and I'm sure I cannot be the only one. It's been addressed numerous times in the past and I just feel like a lot more people may use this system as they could be scared to speak up. While I have nothing to get graded due to me doing the mag, I know how it feels to receive a shitty grade on a piece you may have worked on for a while and you feel you got wrongly graded. 

 

I could be the only one with this mindset, so if I am, carry on and delete this xD 

[jack 498]

It's definitely a topic worth discussing, but I don't know if this is the place to do it.

[Mr. Grumpy Bear 347]

I have been grading here the longest of all these current graders and I have never had one complaint brought to me yet, nor have I as head grader. Grading is slack around here, if it was up to me there would be three's handed out for some of the work like when I started in the VHL. The powers that be want it easier so everyone can compete and I understand that so it is what it is. If anyone ever does have a complaint they can bring it to myself and I will discuss their points with the blue team and come to a decision. I don't see it being something we need anyone specifically for.

[Jala 922]

I think this is the perfect place for this, it's not higher ups having this issue, it's the regular members. I know of a few who aren't happy with the harshness of GFX grading.

 

VHL Rubric:

Effort /2:
Look /3:
Creativity /1:

SBA Rubric:

Effort /3:

Look /2:

Creativity /1:

 

The weight on look over effort is a big factor in people getting lower grades. It takes me on average at least 30-45 minutes to make a sig, closer to an hour if I'm making different versions to it/getting CnC from people I know. Putting more focus on how hard someone works on a sig should be more important then how the grader personally views the product.

 

GFX are so subjective as well, a lot of 'top' sig makers on these sites make sigs I don't even feel are very good, but get a 6 and raving reviews, where as one someone less recognized makes gets a 5.25, but looks like a 6 to me. I think that will always be an issue as well.

[jack 498]

That used to be our rubric, I can't remember when or why we changed it.

[Guest]

I'll throw my hat into the ring for the grading appeal committee. Got some experience editing papers and feel I could help there, making things more fair hopefully.

[Jala 922]

I think moving back to that would be more beneficial to less advanced members. There are some that are pretty obviously trying, but don't know/forget how to resize a render so it doesn't look stretched out or try some black/white stuff or blurs without it coming out great, but they're trying.

[Bojo 221]

Has there ever been a grade where creativity is not a 1? Looks like it's always 1.

[Mr. Grumpy Bear 347]

The thing is, the graphic grading isn't harsh enough and if you have it your way everyone get's 6's because they say they put in effort. I see people not taking advise and doing the same stuff over and over again after graders dock for it. Graphic grading is easy to improve on week to week if you really want to. Soulja on SHL has been talking to me for a week and he's come a long way from where he was and continues to search for ways to learn. I can't judge someone's effort on the fact that they said it took them this long to do. Effort is judged on lighting, blending, stock work, text and such. I've graded graphics in 20+ leagues now and feel the people here have a pretty good eye for this and are doing a great job.

[Phil 5,119]

I think that complaints about the grades received should go straight to the Head Grader. I don't believe there would be any bias and if there is, then maybe there needs to be a new head grader. 

 

Otherwise, what's the point of having a head grader at all? 

[solas 1,951]

Has there ever been a grade where creativity is not a 1? Looks like it's always 1.

I can't remember ever not giving a 1 for creativity - while some sigs are more creative than others, I don't really see any reason to take away TPE for that.

Some leagues that I've been a member of in the past have made the grading system 3 points each for both look and effort. That gets rid of the effectively pointless creativity grade and gives more points for effort.

[diamond_ace 3,112]

If there needs to be a complaint committee for Media, I'd be interested. I would not be interested for Graphics.

[Mr. Grumpy Bear 347]

I've alway's liked the 3 and 3 grading for graphics, creativity is pointless as all art is creative in it's own way

[Jala 922]

The thing is, the graphic grading isn't harsh enough and if you have it your way everyone get's 6's because they say they put in effort. I see people not taking advise and doing the same stuff over and over again after graders dock for it. Graphic grading is easy to improve on week to week if you really want to. Soulja on SHL has been talking to me for a week and he's come a long way from where he was and continues to search for ways to learn. I can't judge someone's effort on the fact that they said it took them this long to do. Effort is judged on lighting, blending, stock work, text and such. I've graded graphics in 20+ leagues now and feel the people here have a pretty good eye for this and are doing a great job.

PTs are for progressing your player, I don't feel like it should be impossible to get a 6 and lose out on TPE because the fundamentals are there but personal preference bumps you down to a 5.25. There's the GFX ranks competitions you guys hold to judge who's the best sig makers, I feel like that's where the judgement should really come down. Grading for PTs shouldn't be that harsh, it's there to help you gain points for your player, not judge who's the best at making sigs.

 

With that said, if it's obvious that someone isn't progressing with the basics then they shouldn't get a 6, but they wouldn't get 3/3 in effort if they're not doing the basics.

[CowboyinAmerica 2,889]

And yes, I know we have a head grader, but to avoid bias since he is a grader in his own right, I think it should be someone who's been on here for a long time or has experience in grading that does this. That way, no one can say that the 'system' is fucking them over, but rather that they get treated fairly.

 

I think this is the important point of this I'd like to see argued a bit more. I've been Head Grader in leagues before, and I think it's fairly easy to objectively respond to a complaint as long as the complainer actually makes a valid point. I know Bushito is well-versed enough in these things to have a solid place from which to base his opinion as well. The whole point of a Head Grader is objectivity - in managing how strict they grade, hiring/firing them based on performance, and fielding complaints. And if a Head Grader isn't objective, then go higher up the ladder to raise that point and replace if necessary.

 

Basically, I just want to hear the argument why a jury trial would be more beneficial than a judge. Because to me, the time wasted waiting for a decision and the bureaucracy of it all isn't worth what I think would be incremental benefits at best.

[Phil 5,119]

If the majority of people agree with the grader who gave the original grade, then the grade sticks but if the people agree with the person who had their piece graded, then the grade will get reversed. 

 

The problem I see with this is that it'll become a popularity contest. I don't think it would shake any biases. 

[Phil 5,119]

Basically, I just want to hear the argument why a jury trial would be more beneficial than a judge. Because to me, the time wasted waiting for a decision and the bureaucracy of it all isn't worth what I think would be incremental benefits at best.

 

Oh, yes.. I just said the same thing. Nicely put!

[Smarch 3,153]

Basically do the opposite of whatever Phil says

[eaglesfan036 4,601]

nah

[Mr. Grumpy Bear 347]

PTs are for progressing your player, I don't feel like it should be impossible to get a 6 and lose out on TPE because the fundamentals are there but personal preference bumps you down to a 5.25. There's the GFX ranks competitions you guys hold to judge who's the best sig makers, I feel like that's where the judgement should really come down. Grading for PTs shouldn't be that harsh, it's there to help you gain points for your player, not judge who's the best at making sigs.

 

With that said, if it's obvious that someone isn't progressing with the basics then they shouldn't get a 6, but they wouldn't get 3/3 in effort if they're not doing the basics.

I personally got a 2/6 on my first graphic here. I know for a fact that if it wasn't for the VHL and it's members I wouldn't know the vast majority of what I do right now. I didn't get my first 6 until I was here for a year and I was working on graphics at least one day a week over that time and usually more. I put in hard work learning how to improve to earn my six and right now I feel like you're telling me we should for-go graders and give everyone 6 for their play because they need it to improve and feel that their graphics warrant a 6. I can tell you that I felt many of my graphics warranted a 6 before I ever earned one. I can also tell you that grading here is far softer than it should be, there are a lot of 4's on here getting 5-5.5. One other thing I can tell you is that the people selected to grade graphics here know far more than the vast majority of people making them and never once in this league have I personally heard one complaint on the matter before today. I feel that the grading here is fair. I also feel that we are unbiased and that people need to put in more effort to earn their points. I would be willing to look at moving to a 3 effort, 3 looks system. I would take it to the blue team though if you want auto 6's for people because I'm not down.

[jack 498]

Yeah, I was in the VHL quite early, and striving for a 6 was what kept me active. There's pros and cons to a more difficult grading scale, and I don't know which side I'm on.

[Phil 5,119]

Basically do the opposite of whatever Phil says

 

Plz dont perma-ban Smarch... ever.

[Fire Tortorella 2,653]

I don't really see the need for a committee for this. It's the Head Grader's job to be impartial. If he was being biased, there's always the blue team as well.

 

As for the graphic rubric, how is getting a 1/2 or a 2/3 for look any different?