Are Media Spots Outdated?

[Da Trifecta 1,896]

40 minutes ago, JardyB10 said:

That's literally not at all what I said. I did say, I wasn't picking on you specifically, and was just using you as a general example of something I've seen over and over and over. I literally did say that I'm sure you WILL return to writing, for a time. But I think you're lying to yourself if you think 150 fewer words will suddenly and PERMANENTLY revive your writing motivation. And I was more or less trying to say that no one should ever make a decision based on someone else making a statement that is framed "If we do X then I think that may or may not help motivate me personally maybe."

 

But I also did say I liked the idea of his 2nd point, and that it would be a general good thing.

 

So no, I really never did say that you'll never write again. Saying that with 150 fewer words you can suddenly aim for anything you want is not a reasonable assumption, IMO.

 

Why won't it solve it? Many of times I have found myself saying what I need to in 250-350 words. So why wouldn't that help solve my problem? The whole reason I applied to write for the mag is because I could stick to one subject. So for it to be able to help me only write 250-350 words would be easy for me to handle.

[Tagger 2,722]

Depends what the measuring stick is for what the league is looking for. If it's ultimately just wanting more people to do PT's, then I mean yeah it would probably get more people to do em. If you want more activity though in posts, I don't think that'll help. 200-300 words is well within a mark where you can just ramble on without having to put any thought in whatsoever, and those pieces are a lot less likely to generate interest. 

 

As for themed weeks, eh. I don't know how other people feel, but I've never really looked at them as good things, more so something that makes me feel forced to write a topic I might not have any interest in or don't feel adequately equipped to write anything about. If anything, that to me feels more like the "school work" analogy that you used than the current system.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Salt

[Higgins 3,617]

1 hour ago, Salt said:

Depends what the measuring stick is for what the league is looking for. If it's ultimately just wanting more people to do PT's, then I mean yeah it would probably get more people to do em. If you want more activity though in posts, I don't think that'll help. 200-300 words is well within a mark where you can just ramble on without having to put any thought in whatsoever, and those pieces are a lot less likely to generate interest. 

 

As for themed weeks, eh. I don't know how other people feel, but I've never really looked at them as good things, more so something that makes me feel forced to write a topic I might not have any interest in or don't feel adequately equipped to write anything about. If anything, that to me feels more like the "school work" analogy that you used than the current system.

 

If anything I think that people will ramble on when they are close to the mandatory minimum 450 word count and add in filler fluff to get them to the number.

[frescoelmo 1,218]

2 hours ago, Devise said:

 

I bet you the amount of people who view this site on mobile, claim welfare on an Tablet or Smart Phone has gone up huge in that time. I mean consider back in the day even when I joined you couldn't even claim welfare. 

 

Is that a good thing?  It probably is related to the lack of activity in the league, if for no other reason than there's nothing for people to do here.  Check in, claim 4, rinse repeat.  I mean a few years ago I was grading 20-30 media spots a week...  it sparked controversy, debate, insight, etc.  Which seems to be lacking now.  Even the hating seems to have diminished.

[Higgins 3,617]

2 hours ago, JardyB10 said:

That's quite possible, if not likely, sure. But the culture changed with Welfare, that led to things like non-graded PTs and discussions such as this. We put in Welfare to attract the "SHL-type" members, for lack of a better term. But even those types haven't really stuck around because then we're just some weird SHL-VHL hybrid, so they may as well stick with SHL. Maybe if the culture didn't shift we would have attracted different types of members who preferred the old VHL type. Or not, maybe we would have died, I don't know, I'm not a wizard. But I'd almost rather shut down then continuing to dumb everything down until we're just a worse version of the SHL.

 

It's making the system more convenient for casual members to earn TPE by producing something tangible for the league rather than claim welfare. I would say it is a safe argument that a member will be more engaged in the league if they post a 300 word write up for TPE rather than just signing in and posting "claim" in the welfare thread. There's no deeper connection made through generating discussions and having people appreciate your work.

 

I'm not saying changes need to happen, just ideas that I posted to generate talk. I think we should monitor how many new members actually write media spots and then I can build a real case with evidence.

[Devise 4,475]

7 minutes ago, frescoelmo said:

 

Is that a good thing?  It probably is related to the lack of activity in the league, if for no other reason than there's nothing for people to do here.  Check in, claim 4, rinse repeat.  I mean a few years ago I was grading 20-30 media spots a week...  it sparked controversy, debate, insight, etc.  Which seems to be lacking now.  Even the hating seems to have diminished.

 

Jardy was saying this same thing.

 

I don't think you guys get it. It's not about whether it's good or bad. That is irrelevant. You can't CHANGE it. People in the world engage less meaningfully with stuff on the internet in 2017 than they did in 2007. Welcome to society. The VHL opened when the idea of spending free time on the internet to do anything for a lot of people was "holy shit, this is interesting." Now way more people spends copious amounts of time on the internet in general. Everything they are engaging with they spend less time on, because of mobile, content saturation, convenience, or in some cases having spent more time on some things and gotten tired of it. 

 

Whether I agree with that, whether it's right, thats all not the point. The point is there are users there we don't offer options too because we live in the past. We want the league and future members to engage with the league like we did, but they aren't, and a lot aren't interested in it. As I mentioned several times, part of the issue is forums too. Sure forums see activity, but not activity like social media or Reddit does. Why? In a lot of cases it's because people can send a quick social media thing, or a reddit post out on their phone in minutes. People have so many different options of how to spend free time now that they spend less time with each thing. Thats the case all over the place with everything. Jesus I know people now who only engage with movies by trailers. Because they don't feel like 2 hours is worth their time. They watch an extended 3 or 4 minute trailer and feel they get what it's worth out of it. This type of thing is happening with everything. It turns out when you over saturate anything, people start spending more time with lots of different things, and less time on individual things. 

 

Then there are of course people who don't engage with the internet as much at all, and the rise of mobile and all this jazz, but still like to engage with some things. Think members who have really busy lifes here already, who then go on and claim welfare because it's easier for them. There are people who would fit the interest bill of something like this who are already in those situations, but because they've never created a member here it'd be tough for us to try to get them to stick around. 

Edited February 21, 2017 by Devise

[frescoelmo 1,218]

2 hours ago, Devise said:

I don't think you guys get it. It's not about whether it's good or bad. That is irrelevant. You can't CHANGE it. 

 

Whether I agree with that, whether it's right, thats all not the point.

 

Were you trying to prove you were right AND wrong at the same time?

[Devise 4,475]

1 hour ago, frescoelmo said:

 

Were you trying to prove you were right AND wrong at the same time?

 

Haha, no not really. Honestly I don't think it's a good thing either, because I'm with the older crowd of us that enjoys what this league is. But that doesn't mean even I can deny what a majority of other people prefer when it comes to this place, and I think the reaction things such as welfare have gotten is evidence of that. 

[Velevra 290]

I think Devise makes a lot of good points.

 

I personally usually only check the site on mobile for short periods of time and I enjoy the fact with welfare and a job, I am able to have a good player. If my only options to earn tpe were doing media spots and graphics, I wouldn't be here.  

 

I completely understand the other side of the equation though as well. It just isn't something that appeals to me. 

 

I think having more options is never a bad thing and sometimes guiding new members with prompts can be helpful in getting them acclimated to the site.   Having shorter word counts for less Tpe might help some members like trifecta do more. Replacing 1 TPE xm radios with prompted tasks like do a mock draft or choose your all-stars may also help some members do more. 

 

 

[frescoelmo 1,218]

10 hours ago, Devise said:

 

Haha, no not really. Honestly I don't think it's a good thing either, because I'm with the older crowd of us that enjoys what this league is. But that doesn't mean even I can deny what a majority of other people prefer when it comes to this place, and I think the reaction things such as welfare have gotten is evidence of that. 

 

It just seems like welfare has really disabled the league's activity level, whether it's because people are content with just popping in and out on mobile devices, too busy, etc...  But to say media spots are outdated seems a little aggressive.  There's just a better option that takes significantly less time and effort.  I also have a soft spot for grading so I'm a little salty that it has regressed to what it is now

[stevo 760]

For all the criticism the welfare system receives, I also have to admit that I wouldn't be around if it wasn't for it. I barely have time to get my PT in for SBA nowadays, which is my priority unsurprisingly, let alone doing anything for VHL and welfare is my opportunity to still partake in this league.

Edited February 21, 2017 by stevo

[Baozi 1,635]

No, because I can't think of any other way really to replace it to earn TPE lol. 

 

Also I don't think it has anything to do with welfare. I think the group of players that were here basically have grown past what was once a core activity to do back in university. I mean I started at VHL back in my post secondary days, back when I did it along side doing homework and just chatting on forums as a thing to do. Now I'm older and I do other things, I do more gaming now and other activities since I have the money for it and have less preference to sit down and write things. I think this also applies to many of the older generation of folks where they've grown up in a sense with other priorities in their lives now and the new rising generation of players aren't as inclined to write articles because more time is spent on mobile devices now like instagram or even mobile gaming in itself which is way more accessible now than prior.

 

Think its just the sign of changing times. Much like how email rpgs and pen/paper have become niche items and not the preferred mode of gaming.

Edited February 21, 2017 by tfong

[Higgins 3,617]

1 hour ago, frescoelmo said:

 

It just seems like welfare has really disabled the league's activity level, whether it's because people are content with just popping in and out on mobile devices, too busy, etc...  But to say media spots are outdated seems a little aggressive.  There's just a better option that takes significantly less time and effort.  I also have a soft spot for grading so I'm a little salty that it has regressed to what it is now

 

Trust me it's better than waiting 1 week or more sometimes for your point task to be graded, especially since we update weekly now and even more when your in the VHLM and a point task can add over 10% to your total TPE.

[Higgins 3,617]

21 minutes ago, tfong said:

No, because I can't think of any other way really to replace it to earn TPE lol. 

 

Also I don't think it has anything to do with welfare. I think the group of players that were here basically have grown past what was once a core activity to do back in university. I mean I started at VHL back in my post secondary days, back when I did it along side doing homework and just chatting on forums as a thing to do. Now I'm older and I do other things, I do more gaming now and other activities since I have the money for it and have less preference to sit down and write things. I think this also applies to many of the older generation of folks where they've grown up in a sense with other priorities in their lives now and the new rising generation of players aren't as inclined to write articles because more time is spent on mobile devices now like instagram or even mobile gaming in itself which is way more accessible now than prior.

 

Think its just the sign of changing times. Much like how email rpgs and pen/paper have become niche items and not the preferred mode of gaming.

 

From your first sentence you say no because there's no replacement. It's not about replacing and more about modifying.

[Devise 4,475]

Just now, Higgins said:

 

From your first sentence you say no because there's no replacement. It's not about replacing and more about modifying.

 

Can I like this a million times? 

 

That is the thing that I feel is most important. Modifying is one way of wording it. Another is to say look at point tasks entirely differently. Right now we have a metric where you try to earn up to 9 TPE per week. You either do welfare or a point task, and then anything else that can earn you the points. It's not like we cultivate the point task community in any real way honestly, especially media spots. Fan590's are as throwaway as it gets as well. The best area for proper writing is the Mag, and even that STZ had to call out the choppers for all of us to stop and go "oh right the Mag is awesome."

 

New members get hurt the most by this, because imagine being someone new who doesn't like to write or do graphics? You get 2 TPE for welfare meanwhile vets are nabbing 4 and then doing little extra things to reach closer to that 9 TPE cap. 

 

For me it's point tasks in general. They are done. People should get rewarded a portion of weekly TPE for showing up, and from there the writing, graphics, and podcasting communities should be cultivated with the proper bonus rewards to encourage that type of activity. That means extra TPE incentives, bring graders back in a meaningful way but not in a I'm going to grade your media spot sort of way. Peoples graphical and written content should be featured on the side, and a group of "graders" should be going through the content to see what should be featured. Whether that means said article gets thrown on the mag, is given a notification highlight whatever. Obviously we are on a forum but even still there are ways to highlight this type of stuff better without making it a "forced weekly task is the only way for this to work." I think if we've learned anything even by the people who enjoy doing PT's, most would rather not be forced to do them weekly to earn the task, because you eventually run out of things to write about. So why not simply treat writing like a big reward for doing an article or two per season? 

 

 

[Baozi 1,635]

11 minutes ago, Higgins said:

 

From your first sentence you say no because there's no replacement. It's not about replacing and more about modifying.

 

"No, because I can't think of any other way really to replace it to earn TPE lol. "

 

So...you're agreeing with me then. I said no MS isn't outdated and you're saying no MS isn't outdated and we can do some modifications.....

[Molholt 2,183]

16 minutes ago, Devise said:

For me it's point tasks in general. They are done. People should get rewarded a portion of weekly TPE for showing up, and from there the writing, graphics, and podcasting communities should be cultivated with the proper bonus rewards to encourage that type of activity. 

 

Isn't that the GOMHL?

[Devise 4,475]

5 minutes ago, Molholt said:

 

Isn't that the GOMHL?

 

I've never been really briefed on their system or how it works.

[Molholt 2,183]

1 minute ago, Devise said:

 

I've never been really briefed on their system or how it works.

 

Something like you claim a activity check for like 5-6 TPE and you can do a MS or graphic each week for like 2 points. 

[Devise 4,475]

5 minutes ago, Molholt said:

 

Something like you claim a activity check for like 5-6 TPE and you can do a MS or graphic each week for like 2 points. 

 

Yeah I was more leaning on not a weekly thing. You encourage people to do a couple well thought out articles a season and have your writing graders give some awards at end of season. If people want to write or do graphics but aren't into the chore of forced weekly once or twice a season should be no issues. This would give graders a better template for grading too since then it's not a weekly how much out of six thing and is more centered on feedback and showcasing people's work.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Devise

[Molholt 2,183]

Just now, Devise said:

 

Yeah I was more leaning on not a weekly thing. You encourage people to do a couple well thought out articles a season and have your writing graders give some awards at end of season. If people want to write or do graphics whatever but aren't into the chore of forced weekly once or twice a season should be no issues. This would give graders a better template for grading too since then it's not a weekly how much out of six thing and is more centered on feedback and showcasing people's work.

 

So, like a season thing? 

 

Lower the total and do that. imo.

[frescoelmo 1,218]

2 hours ago, Higgins said:

 

Trust me it's better than waiting 1 week or more sometimes for your point task to be graded, especially since we update weekly now and even more when your in the VHLM and a point task can add over 10% to your total TPE.

 

If you're fine with the lack of activity league-wide as a result then by all means... full steam ahead.

[Higgins 3,617]

38 minutes ago, frescoelmo said:

 

If you're fine with the lack of activity league-wide as a result then by all means... full steam ahead.

 

Are you saying that the old grading style promoted significantly more activity? I'm not sure I follow, sure graders gave little comments with their number grade but discussion generating topics usually generate their own interest.

[Molholt 2,183]

38 minutes ago, frescoelmo said:

 

If you're fine with the lack of activity league-wide as a result then by all means... full steam ahead.

 

Was discussion ever being generated because of graders? I feel like a grader has never really sparked much of a discussion now or before. Nothing is stopping people from generating discussion on articles and graphics now, but no one takes the time to do so (myself included).

[jRuutu 2,314]

I think special topic weeks here and there is a good idea.I would like to write more about VHL related stuff, but I don´t, since it´s easier to talk about everything else and do 0 research. That is what I do, at least 90% of all my media spots are me writing about something random. Some media spots I write might be actually close to being good, but most are pretty bad. I collect the easy 6 points and do it again next week.  (Yeah, we have come that far, I call media spots easy these days)

 

As long as welfare/pension people can keep on claiming 4 from welfare, I´m going to write one terrible article after another. Welfare/pension players should be in the 2nd line at best, they should be so bad that they are lucky if they hit 15+15 each season. Different and harder update scale for players who claim welfare/pension over 4 or more times each season?  

 

Every pension and welfare should be 2 points. Newer members seeing older members claim 4 is not helping them in staying here, if welfare/pension players are so important to the league, might as well try to make few of the new guys stay by using the welfare/pension if they are not clearly doing PT´s and perhaps they start writing media stuff and graphics later once they learn how everything works? No?  I mean, why are they not even staying and collecting welfare/pension? Could making it fair for everybody help? 2 points for pension/welfare and get rid of few teams, even four. 

 

Welfare/Pension players should be the lowest of the lowest, so bad no GM wants to spend any money on them. Now the league treats them like they are saviors of VHL, heroes who keep this league alive.

 

Edited February 21, 2017 by jRuutu