S54: Update Scale Changes

[jRuutu 2,464]

11 minutes ago, Devise said:

 

Because they used to have alot more free time to check the site, enjoy being part of this community and want to stick around to help new members and grow the league. So because they don't have the time to do a PT we should tell them to fuck off? That is the wrong message.

 

Look at this update scale change more closely. This will help actives like yourself separate yourselves from the semi and welfare players. 

The carryover TPE is nice enough ´gift´ to the returning members in my opinion. If they want to stay in the league, but do not have the time to be ´fully active´ and do PT´s, what difference does it make to them if they claim 2 from welfare/pension instead of 4? Oh no, I cant claim 4 from welfare/pension anymore, it´s like it´s not even worth it anymore to do all this work? 

 

If they have the time to help the new members and league out, surely they have also time to do PT´s?  I refuse the believe every single one of the users who claim welfare/pension are helping new members and in general helping the league by having a job.

[jRuutu 2,464]

6 minutes ago, tfong said:

 

Lol cuz its wrong?

400 tpe over 8 years isn't much

Welfare players can also claim training camp with their players which brings solid amount of TPE over your career.

[Baozi 1,658]

6 minutes ago, jRuutu said:

Welfare players can also claim training camp with their players which brings solid amount of TPE over your career.

 

You can't count tpe that is available to both player types. Thats irrelevant since it counts towards being active.

Edited February 24, 2017 by tfong

[jRuutu 2,464]

2 minutes ago, tfong said:

 

You can't count tpe that is available to both player types. Thats not a proper analysis baseline.

Looks like I just did, BOOM!

 

 

[Baozi 1,658]

2 minutes ago, jRuutu said:

Looks like I just did, BOOM!

 

 

 

Aren't you finnish? shouldn't you like welfare?

 

Also read my other response as to why welfare is needed, its the stance taken to not be a hardcore only league.

Edited February 24, 2017 by tfong

[jRuutu 2,464]

Just now, tfong said:

 

Aren't you finnish? shouldn't you like welfare?

I am and I do  

[BOOM 8,748]

Still too easy. I don't even have a player and am still earning 8 TPE/week.

[BOOM 8,748]

Well, not really but maybe the VHL should be for the truly hardcore!

[scoop 3,432]

5 hours ago, Devise said:

It will make that TPE difference actives earn over non PT users matter more. 

I still have my doubts about this. I really don't understand how you aren't seeing that players with more TPE are affected more by this than players with less.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with the change. I just don't understand the argument that this hurts welfare/lower TPE guys.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Streetlite

[der meister 3,189]

1 hour ago, BOOM said:

Well, not really but maybe the VHL should be for the truly hardcore!

 

if that's the route, then count me out. 

[Devise 4,475]

20 minutes ago, der meister said:

 

if that's the route, then count me out. 

 

Boom is just being hyperbolic that is not in fact the route, and I think the fact that we explored update scale changes as opposed to just straight removing the TPE people get for welfare or suddenly making PT players get more is evidence that we are trying to fairly support all member types. Ultimately if your here to build a player and have a good time all should be welcome to do that.

[der meister 3,189]

Just now, Devise said:

 

Boom is just being hyperbolic that is not in fact the route, and I think the fact that we explored update scale changes as opposed to just straight removing the TPE people get for welfare or suddenly making PT players get more is evidence that we are trying to fairly support all member types. Ultimately if your here to build a player and have a good time all should be welcome to do that.

 

I still don't like it. One of the reasons I've been enjoying the VHL more is the 'easier' update scale. I know it's not a big change, but you know how active I am, doing 8 a week. People in this thread talking like everyone is 1000+ tpe, but I won't hit that. This looks more like pay-to-play than anything, like donate if you want the best player or too bad. I'm exaggerating a bit to make my point, admittedly, but I'm more disappointed to see any change at all.

[hedgehog337 3,483]

Doing this more hardcore than it's gonna be after this season is not an option, we need the middle-pack players as well, not only superstars and scrubs for life. 

[Jericho 917]

5 hours ago, jRuutu said:

The carryover TPE is nice enough ´gift´ to the returning members in my opinion. If they want to stay in the league, but do not have the time to be ´fully active´ and do PT´s, what difference does it make to them if they claim 2 from welfare/pension instead of 4? Oh no, I cant claim 4 from welfare/pension anymore, it´s like it´s not even worth it anymore to do all this work? 

 

If they have the time to help the new members and league out, surely they have also time to do PT´s?  I refuse the believe every single one of the users who claim welfare/pension are helping new members and in general helping the league by having a job.

 

So for all their hard work we give them like 30 extra TPE for their next player, don't forget we give everyone 30 to start with now, so the 60ish you can get from carryover isn't as good as you think.

 

You have to remember that the VHL isn't something everyone always has time for. People's lives change. Look at someone like @Knight. David used to be on like 6 hours a day and ran the league for a stupidly long time. He put up with way more shit than the current day Blue Team have to because everyone was angsty and young back then. He put in more time in the tens and 20s than most people have in their careers. But after a while real life gets in the way. We've been around for 10 years. Some of us came in our teens and have kids now. Some of us are moving from school to careers. Those people are just as much a part of this league history as the TPE whores of today.

 

If they want to hang out and make a decent player without doing much work, let them. Think of welfare as a retirement plan. They've put in their time, and now they get to reap their rewards for that effort. That's the reason we still have guys like @sterling. I'm fairly sure he'd have left long ago if it weren't for welfare. If he wants to make a passable player or two he's fucking earned it. Between keeping the 2nd site going (that thing went down every week) and simming for like 10 seasons and I think some Blue Team shit before I showed up.

 

Your idea is the equivalent to having someone put in 30 years at a job, and when they retire we give them like 100 000 dollars and tell them if they want more money to get back to the coal mines because those diamonds aren't going to dig themselves.

[BOOM 8,748]

 @der meister

 

I was just being hyperbolic. If I intend to make a serious post or contribution I will be sure to warn everyone beforehand.

[jRuutu 2,464]

10 hours ago, Jericho said:

 

So for all their hard work we give them like 30 extra TPE for their next player, don't forget we give everyone 30 to start with now, so the 60ish you can get from carryover isn't as good as you think.

 

You have to remember that the VHL isn't something everyone always has time for. People's lives change. Look at someone like @Knight. David used to be on like 6 hours a day and ran the league for a stupidly long time. He put up with way more shit than the current day Blue Team have to because everyone was angsty and young back then. He put in more time in the tens and 20s than most people have in their careers. But after a while real life gets in the way. We've been around for 10 years. Some of us came in our teens and have kids now. Some of us are moving from school to careers. Those people are just as much a part of this league history as the TPE whores of today.

 

If they want to hang out and make a decent player without doing much work, let them. Think of welfare as a retirement plan. They've put in their time, and now they get to reap their rewards for that effort. That's the reason we still have guys like @sterling. I'm fairly sure he'd have left long ago if it weren't for welfare. If he wants to make a passable player or two he's fucking earned it. Between keeping the 2nd site going (that thing went down every week) and simming for like 10 seasons and I think some Blue Team shit before I showed up.

 

Your idea is the equivalent to having someone put in 30 years at a job, and when they retire we give them like 100 000 dollars and tell them if they want more money to get back to the coal mines because those diamonds aren't going to dig themselves.

I understand that, cant expect people to have same amount of ´free´ time like they used to, but at the same time I cant understand why you need to reward long time members who have build few or more solid players with the opportunity to build pretty solid player again, but with much less effort?  Why are they not happy to just be here and make it into VHL in the first place as welfare/pension players? Why they need to have the ability to claim 4 points from pension/welfare? Give them 2 and show them where the door is if they are not happy. 

 

If I want, I could go the same route with my next player and start collecting welfare/pension for 4, then do Fan590´s with the store upgrade thing for 2 on top of that, that is 6 points each week when I now earn 8 when I do PT´s.  That is not big enough difference. Why should I keep on doing PT´s if I can get rather close to the same level as a player with welfare/pension + fan590, but with much less effort?  

 

What if we all just start collecting welfare/pension eventually? Because that is the end goal in VHL apparently, work quite hard to get to 400 TPE with few of your players and then you are set.

 

Are the big boys and girls of the league not worried at all about this?  Could the current welfare/pension system have anything to do in VHL having hard time keeping new people around? It´s not helping, that much I know. 

Edited February 25, 2017 by jRuutu

[Jericho 917]

24 minutes ago, jRuutu said:

I understand that, cant expect people to have same amount of ´free´ time like they used to, but at the same time I cant understand why you need to reward long time members who have build few or more solid players with the opportunity to build pretty solid player again, but with much less effort?  Why are they not happy to just be here and make it into VHL in the first place as welfare/pension players? Why they need to have the ability to claim 4 points from pension/welfare? Give them 2 and show them where the door is if they are not happy. 

 

If I want, I could go the same route with my next player and start collecting welfare/pension for 4, then do Fan590´s with the store upgrade thing for 2 on top of that, that is 6 points each week when I now earn 8 when I do PT´s.  That is not big enough difference. Why should I keep on doing PT´s if I can get rather close to the same level as a player with welfare/pension + fan590, but with much less effort?  

 

What if we all just start collecting welfare/pension eventually? Because that is the end goal in VHL apparently, work quite hard to get to 400 TPE with few of your players and then you are set.

 

Are the big boys and girls of the league not worried at all about this?  Could the current welfare/pension system have anything to do in VHL having hard time keeping new people around? It´s not helping, that much I know. 

 

Ok, so this is the whole point of the increased update scale. First of all, they can't buy 590 upgrades every season with contract money, especially early on.

 

Second, you can't tell people if they should be happy with something. That's not how real life works. We have to be realistic. We aren't going to show everyone the door once their activity starts to drop. We haven't always had welfare, and we used to lose a lot of guys that way.

 

Third, they aren't going to be just as good as the TPE whores. They're going to be pretty good, and there's nothing wrong with that. We can't tell them they have to have shit players if they want to do welfare, or they'll just leave. We don't want to lose those guys, because they're good dudes and they've done good things for us over the years. That's how the retirement system works in Canada right now. You reward people for the hard work they did during their prime. TBH the "big boy and girls" should be fine. You're forgetting about the biggest thing that the TPE whores can handle and the welfare guys struggle to. Depreciation.

 

They get hit from both ends of depreciation doing just welfare. They have less banked, so they don't get as much to restore themselves in those final 3 years. They start at a lower point, and then they earn less. That makes a huge difference over someone who earns 9/week and covers themselves. You have a much better chance at mattering at the end of your career.

[jRuutu 2,464]

1 minute ago, Jericho said:

 

Ok, so this is the whole point of the increased update scale. First of all, they can't buy 590 upgrades every season with contract money, especially early on.

 

Second, you can't tell people if they should be happy with something. That's not how real life works. We have to be realistic. We aren't going to show everyone the door once their activity starts to drop. We haven't always had welfare, and we used to lose a lot of guys that way.

 

Third, they aren't going to be just as good as the TPE whores. They're going to be pretty good, and there's nothing wrong with that. We can't tell them they have to have shit players if they want to do welfare, or they'll just leave. We don't want to lose those guys, because they're good dudes and they've done good things for us over the years. That's how the retirement system works in Canada right now. You reward people for the hard work they did during their prime. TBH the "big boy and girls" should be fine. You're forgetting about the biggest thing that the TPE whores can handle and the welfare guys struggle to. Depreciation.

 

They get hit from both ends of depreciation doing just welfare. They have less banked, so they don't get as much to restore themselves in those final 3 years. They start at a lower point, and then they earn less. That makes a huge difference over someone who earns 9/week and covers themselves. You have a much better chance at mattering at the end of your career.

I mean, if you know for a fact you will be busy in the future and cant be as active with the new player as you were previously, why would you all of a sudden leave if the league gives you 2 points from welfare/pension instead of 4? Will you stop updating completely because the weekly routine of writing your name into a thread and maybe doing 590 with predictions is just not worth it anymore? If I put the minimum effort in, why should I expect anything else than the minimum? 

 

The league should absolutely tell the users who want to build welfare/pension players that they will be bad, really bad. If anything, remove four,six or eight teams from VHL/VHLM, create new league and call it the ´AHL´of VHL where these welfare/pension players should aim to play their careers in. If you are lucky you might get called up to VHL and play there. 

 

Depreciation should be the double for welfare/pension players right from the start. Their careers should be much shorter than the players who do PT`s. 

[Jericho 917]

15 minutes ago, jRuutu said:

I mean, if you know for a fact you will be busy in the future and cant be as active with the new player as you were previously, why would you all of a sudden leave if the league gives you 2 points from welfare/pension instead of 4? Will you stop updating completely because the weekly routine of writing your name into a thread and maybe doing 590 with predictions is just not worth it anymore? If I put the minimum effort in, why should I expect anything else than the minimum? 

 

The league should absolutely tell the users who want to build welfare/pension players that they will be bad, really bad. If anything, remove four,six or eight teams from VHL/VHLM, create new league and call it the ´AHL´of VHL where these welfare/pension players should aim to play their careers in. If you are lucky you might get called up to VHL and play there. 

 

Depreciation should be the double for welfare/pension players right from the start. Their careers should be much shorter than the players who do PT`s. 

 

Like, you're just fucking wrong. have you not noticed that you don't have anyone who agrees with you?

 

You're ideas are selfish. We want to make decisions that are best for the player base. A large portion of that are welfare players. If I wanted to do what was best for me I'd dumpster the league for the welfare guys too but that isn't how the real world works.

 

Nothing you've suggested is even implementable anyway, even if the idea wasn't brain dead. Having a harsher update scale for welfare players. What about guys who do PTs who do welfare sometimes? What do you do with them?

 

Having a separate third league for welfare guys? We're talking about REMOVING one, not adding a third? Are you pulling these ideas out of your ass?

[hedgehog337 3,483]

10 minutes ago, jRuutu said:

The league should absolutely tell the users who want to build welfare/pension players that they will be bad, really bad.

 

Depreciation should be the double for welfare/pension players right from the start. Their careers should be much shorter than the players who do PT`s. 

 

You're going too far. I can understand your suggestion about cutting welfare to 2 TPE, but harsher regression? That's not how it's gonna work, members will just leave VHL cause they will have only two options - or going hard or leave. Also, VHL shouldn't become the lil version of SHL imo.

[jRuutu 2,464]

20 minutes ago, Jericho said:

 

Like, you're just fucking wrong. have you not noticed that you don't have anyone who agrees with you?

 

You're ideas are selfish. We want to make decisions that are best for the player base. A large portion of that are welfare players. If I wanted to do what was best for me I'd dumpster the league for the welfare guys too but that isn't how the real world works.

 

Nothing you've suggested is even implementable anyway, even if the idea wasn't brain dead. Having a harsher update scale for welfare players. What about guys who do PTs who do welfare sometimes? What do you do with them?

 

Having a separate third league for welfare guys? We're talking about REMOVING one, not adding a third? Are you pulling these ideas out of your ass?

Does not matter if nobody agrees with me, even if everybody agreed nothing is going to change. This league is run towards in being welfare only league. 

 

And of course they are selfish, just like it´s selfish from the welfare/pension users to expect to be even somewhat good players by building players with welfare/pension only. If you claimed welfare/pension this week, use Update scale A, if you did not claim welfare/pension this week, use update scale B. Not that hard in the end. Especially the users who do not have a job should be forced to use different update scale if the claim welfare/pension(Harder)

 

Is the farm league that bad idea?  Make VHL be as competitive as possible by removing few teams and creating AHL type of league where welfare/pension only players and other players who are not good enough to be in VHL can play while they wait their call to the VHL? Take multiple teams out of VHLM as well and kick the inactives out.  

Edited February 25, 2017 by jRuutu

[jRuutu 2,464]

17 minutes ago, hedgehog337 said:

 

You're going too far. I can understand your suggestion about cutting welfare to 2 TPE, but harsher regression? That's not how it's gonna work, members will just leave VHL cause they will have only two options - or going hard or leave. Also, VHL shouldn't become the lil version of SHL imo.

The league should do something to the welfare army. If they keep everything as it is, then heavier regression blow could be a option.  

 

VHL does not have to be mini SHL, but would be nice to see bigger difference between welfare players and ´Active´ players who do PT´s weekly.

 

[stevo 792]

I mean tbh, even as a regular welfare claimer par excellence I could understand levelling down the points that can be earned via welfare if that's what the league needs to seperate between those that regularly bring in PTs and scrubs like myself.

[Jericho 917]

22 minutes ago, jRuutu said:

Does not matter if nobody agrees with me, even if everybody agreed nothing is going to change. This league is run towards in being welfare only league. 

 

And of course they are selfish, just like it´s selfish from the welfare/pension users to expect to be even somewhat good players by building players with welfare/pension only. If you claimed welfare/pension this week, use Update scale A, if you did not claim welfare/pension this week, use update scale B. Not that hard in the end. Especially the users who do not have a job should be forced to use different update scale if the claim welfare/pension(Harder)

 

Is the farm league that bad idea?  Make VHL be as competitive as possible by removing few teams and creating AHL type of league where welfare/pension only players and other players who are not good enough to be in VHL can play while they wait their call to the VHL? Take multiple teams out of VHLM as well and kick the inactives out.  

 

The way you view the world is very juvenile. Yes it matters that nobody agrees with you, because your ideas are shit. If everyone did agree then it would change. That's how the BoG works. Most of us agreed to the new update scale and WOW new update scale!

 

So you run the two update scales, and someone uses both. That ends up with some really weird numbers for the updaters to keep track of, since the fractions will all change once you pass 70 in a stat. Logistically it'd be a nightmare and the gain is....fucking nothing. Make life difficult for the updaters at no gain is STUPID. You also can't punish people for not having a job, what do you do when people want jobs and there aren't any to go around? That's a double slap in the face for them.

 

Yes the farm league is a bad idea, we don't have the player base to support it. Where do you expect the players to come from?

 

You do understand that when we make decisions we don't just pull things out of our ass right? We did math when we made these decisions. Research was done. Test sims were done. We can't just cater to the 1% otherwise we will only have a 1%. I really don't feel like a league with 10 dudes sounds very fun, so I'd like to keep some of the older guys around. Call me crazy.

[Higgins 3,618]

People blowing this out of the water. It's a change that's been 30 seasons in the making. This helps anyone that is active either doing PTs or claiming welfare/pension.