Where do we go with the VHLM [1/2]

[Banackock 8,049]

Just now, KGR said:

 

LMAO I am done. You did ask for it.

Where did I say "What was your suggestion?"

 

Did you or did you not state we should use a version of another leagues idea because it worked well for that league?

 

I don't understand why you're getting so upset. I haven't called you dumb or anything like that?

[JardyB10 4,865]

4 hours ago, Spade18 said:

When you are trying to get your footing in the league, having your player get dominated by long time members sucks. 

While I have some counterpoints to this, the idea this gave me is unrelated so I won't bother with it.

 

In the fairly recent past, a number of members have suggested/got on board with merging the VHLM and VHL. As I said in my latest podcast, I think that's fucking dumb because, as you said, the VHLM as a concept is great, and isn't something we should scrap on a whim.

 

People also love to throw around the idea of contraction, for both leagues. This is also fucking dumb because it's the one thing we've proven to be completely ineffective, yet people keep circling back to it like it will suddenly fix parity issues THIS time around.

 

- However, you just gave me an idea that potentially presents an opportunity to potentially utilize all these ideas in a manner that isn't necessarily fucking dumb: What if we made the VHLM exclusive to first-generation members? And re-creates would have to either go straight to the VHL, or maybe have their own league yet.

 

     - Admittedly there's a shit ton of reasons why this idea is shaky, particuarly that it thins out the VHLM (hence why contraction could actually be necessary/useful for once). But I like the idea of a space/league that is JUST for noobs like yourself, to test out their shit against each other and kind of immediately foster rivalries/camaraderie amongst each other. We could unlock most the restrictions on inactives to fill out the rosters (I'd say only 30-50 TPE guys would be allowed, but no limit to how many). That way there's actual players to play against, but none that are dauntingly better than new members all season.

 

- As for re-creates, there's many good arguments to be made of how they shouldn't go straight to the VHL, especially pre-draft. If you cared not for any of these arguments, they could be added to VHL via waivers in the same manner they go to VHLM teams now. Their pre-draft season wouldn't count as their rookie season, and they'd become rookies when they're drafted the next season. This may not be the best solution, but I think it's the best version of a "re-creates should go straight to the VHL" solution. Also this isn't unlike the "VHLM and VHL should merge" idea, which is something that gets traction, so I think this is at least better than that.

 

     - Alternatively, they can have their own small league that contains themselves and the rest of the inactives (50+ TPE). A re-create shouldn't feel intimidated by a well-performing inactive. I don't know the numbers of re-creates and noobs and inactives available in the VHLM to make two separate leagues feasible however, which brings me to my third alternative:

 

     - Keep the re-creates and noobs in the same VHLM together, but separate them by conference, and give them separate Cup finals (this would be logistically possible by creating two separate league files before playoff starts, and manually entering which teams make it). The two conferences would, for the most part, play regular season games amongst themselves, but there could be a small handful of crossover games as well. While I like this idea in theory, the downside is that there's no way to separate league leaders by conference I don't believe, and therefore, for a new member, it might still feel like they're getting pwnd by veterans in every possible way.

 

Anyway, that's all the senile nonsensical rambling I came up with. Probably not very feasible for the most part, but maybe fun to discuss if people want. At the very least, I definitely like it better than just straight up merging the VHLM and VHL.

[Spade18 1,305]

1 hour ago, Frank said:

Interesting points. Did you have any sort of tasks in mind for the GM's or commishes to give to VHLM players? @Spade18

 

Of course, the first time I post an article that gets lots of discussion, I dont get home until 10 XD

 

The ideas that I was milling around were things that personally connect us to hockey or the VHL.

 

Things like "post a picture of your favorite piece of hockey paraphernalia that you own"  or "Tell us about a time you met an NHLer"

 

Things that we cant just copy and paste from the index, but things that get us telling stories and connecting on a human level.  as we dont get to practice together or physically play on a line, we need something that bonds us as teammates, and giving a litle glimps into our lives is the best way to do that.

Edited September 27, 2017 by Spade18

[Banackock 8,049]

6 minutes ago, Spade18 said:

 

Of course, the first time I post an article that gets lots of discussion, I dont get home until 10 XD

 

The ideas that I was milling around were things that personally connect us to hockey or the VHL.

 

Things like "post a picture of your favorite piece of hockey paraphernalia that you own"  or "Tell us about a time you met an NHLer"

 

Things that we cant just copy and paste from the index, but things that get us telling stories and connecting on a human level.  as we dont get to practice together or physically play on a line, we need something that bonds us as teammates, and giving a litle glimps into our lives is the best way to do that.

Those are sort of unique ideas. Don't mind them too much. Would be hard to come up with a bunch maybe, but it connects the league and users. Don't mind my opinion though. I'm the dumbest ever  

[Spade18 1,305]

Just now, Banackock said:

Those are sort of unique ideas. Don't mind them too much. Would be hard to come up with a bunch maybe, but it connects the league and users. Don't mind my opinion though. I'm the dumbest ever  

give me a week and i'm sure i can come up with a bunch.

 

these were just off the top of my head

[JardyB10 4,865]

Oh, I should also mention, unrelated to my last post, that more career PTs is indeed a good idea, and I think that's something that should be frontlined to development.

 

I also really like the unique ideas. Anything that's like, "The XXL does this-and-that which is really cool and people like it," I immediately don't think is a very good idea (unless it's just a general quality of life thing, like customizable buttons or something like that). Lots of ideas like that I don't find useful if another league that's more established in utilizing those ideas are already doing it. This might be an unpopular opinion (given how many people you'll find defending welfare and such), but I think us making changes to be more accommodating to members used to non/half-PT leagues ended up hurting our activity more than it helped it (i.e. Welfare, non-graded PTs). Because rather than just making us a stronger PT-league, it made us a weaker semi-PT league. SHL was already an established non/semi-PT league, so why were we trying to be MORE like them? What's the point? So no, Banananack (or whoever posed the idea), I don't think we should implement a bloody SEASONLY ACTIVITY CHECK, THE CONCEPT THE SHL WAS LITERALLY FOUNDED OFF OF. I think at this point any new ideas should be trying to (once again) separate us from other sim leagues, not trying to accommodate them.

 

AND THE FIRST STEP TO THAT IS LOCKER ROOMS TO THE BOTTOM, WHO'S WITH ME!?!

 

[Beaviss 4,957]

3 minutes ago, JardyB10 said:

AND THE FIRST STEP TO THAT IS LOCKER ROOMS TO THE BOTTOM, WHO'S WITH ME!?!
 

 

Nope

[Banackock 8,049]

24 minutes ago, JardyB10 said:

Oh, I should also mention, unrelated to my last post, that more career PTs is indeed a good idea, and I think that's something that should be frontlined to development.

 

I also really like the unique ideas. Anything that's like, "The XXL does this-and-that which is really cool and people like it," I immediately don't think is a very good idea (unless it's just a general quality of life thing, like customizable buttons or something like that). Lots of ideas like that I don't find useful if another league that's more established in utilizing those ideas are already doing it. This might be an unpopular opinion (given how many people you'll find defending welfare and such), but I think us making changes to be more accommodating to members used to non/half-PT leagues ended up hurting our activity more than it helped it (i.e. Welfare, non-graded PTs). Because rather than just making us a stronger PT-league, it made us a weaker semi-PT league. SHL was already an established non/semi-PT league, so why were we trying to be MORE like them? What's the point? So no, Banananack (or whoever posed the idea), I don't think we should implement a bloody SEASONLY ACTIVITY CHECK, THE CONCEPT THE SHL WAS LITERALLY FOUNDED OFF OF. I think at this point any new ideas should be trying to (once again) separate us from other sim leagues, not trying to accommodate them.

 

AND THE FIRST STEP TO THAT IS LOCKER ROOMS TO THE BOTTOM, WHO'S WITH ME!?!

 

Not activity check. Themed Point Tasks. Example - You and 3 teammates throw a surprise birthday part for one of your teammates. Whose birthday was it? Who was there? What did you do and what events took place? ETC.

 

If we're looking for different ideas, that's going to be tough considering all the leagues out there. As long as were not cynical like some who claim to want to be different, yet bring up ideas that other leagues are doing

 

I like my finance shit then, lol. Let's build arenas and give us the option of purchasing teams.

 

SHALL we bring in player agencies?

[Banackock 8,049]

22 minutes ago, Beaviss said:

 

Nope

 

[JardyB10 4,865]

3 minutes ago, Banackock said:

Not activity check. Themed Point Tasks. Example - You and 3 teammates throw a surprise birthday part for one of your teammates. Whose birthday was it? Who was there? What did you do and what events took place? ETC.

 

If we're looking for different ideas, that's going to be tough considering all the leagues out there. As long as were not cynical like some who claim to want to be different, yet bring up ideas that other leagues are doing

 

I like my finance shit then, lol. Let's build arenas and give us the option of purchasing teams.

 

SHALL we bring in player agencies?

Sorry, this is really the only thread I've had a chance to read thoroughly. I thought I saw activity check brought up somewhere, and I seethed with rage. Also therefore I'm not familiar with the player agent idea off hand.

 

And which of these ideas have been done already!? A noob-only league?? I literally don't know a single thing about any other sim league, including the SHL, considering I haven't been there in years and years.

Edited September 27, 2017 by JardyB10

[Banackock 8,049]

Just now, JardyB10 said:

Sorry, this is really the only thread I've had a chance to read thoroughly. I thought I saw activity check brought up somewhere, and I seethed with rage.

 

And which of these ideas have been done already!? A noob-only league?? I literally don't know a single thing about any other sim league, including the SHL, considering I haven't been there in years and years.

No. Activity check wouldn't bring about activity. Would be like another scavenger hunt or stat hunt. Find it, post it and move on. Easy, meaningless TPE. 

 

I'm simply saying, while I may be the dumbest person ever (hah), I don't see anything wrong with themed PT's. Does the SHL have them? YES. Does it drive in activity? YES. Is it fun to read some of them? YES. Is it easier and more enjoyable to write them? Sometimes. 

 

I see nothing wrong with a  couple themed point tasks a season. While DT states SHL is SHL, VHL is VHL - there's nothing wrong with taking some good things and adding them to us. Being different is good, yes. Just because we have one thing that I can almost promise boosts activity in common with the SHL, doesn't make us them. 

 

OR, maybe we add some random discussions. We open up the floor for our reddit users. We have a bunch of people on here who came from reddit posting that they're not hockey fans. Why don't we open the floor to maybe earn a SMALL amount of discussion taking place in other areas of the board?

 

For example, some people coming over from reddit or elsewhere may enjoy football, baseball, politics or movies more? Why not have them write up a 300 word article on some shit? Maybe Joey bats final home game with Toronto? Maybe they post a bunch and stuff? 

 

Find a way to get activity going in other areas that aren't considered tedious and potential "jobs" or "work" on the VHL. We come on and it's like " fuck, I still have to write a media spot, magazine article and blah blah". Why not allow members of all backgrounds to earn a little TPE for simply enjoying conversing with one another? Give them some motivation to speak in other places other than the main spots? @Beketov @Devise @Higgins 

[Beaviss 4,957]

I really like the buying a team idea. That way the owner of the team can sign general managers and personnel which would make the general manager positions less of an appointment and more of a job which would promote activity and if you pay them in TPE. 

 

Im actually a big fan of the team buying idea and the idea of profits for teams maybe how well you do in the standings is how much money you have.

[DollarAndADream 3,356]

We should definitely have themed PTs and extra TPE opportunities. Like SBA did recently was a theme about a hypothetical expansion team. Pick the team, describe, or do a graphic of the logo. Say why a new team should be in that city, who are your 3 core players you would build the team around, etc etc.

 

But seriously, @KGR and @Banackock, who cares about the HoF "copying" shit. SHL isn't copying VHL, and VHL isn't copying SHL. The NHL has had it for a long time, it's not like it's some crazy new idea. Same goes for themed PTs. They're not some revolutionary shit either. Just a fun way to boost activity and keeps things more active. Having themed PTs or things like that wouldn't be copying. Most of these leagues I've been in have some sort of thing like that every once in awhile.

[Banackock 8,049]

Just now, DollarAndADream said:

We should definitely have themed PTs and extra TPE opportunities. Like SBA did recently was a theme about a hypothetical expansion team. Pick the team, describe, or do a graphic of the logo. Say why a new team should be in that city, who are your 3 core players you would build the team around, etc etc.

 

But seriously, @KGR and @Banackock, who cares about the HoF "copying" shit. SHL isn't copying VHL, and VHL isn't copying SHL. The NHL has had it for a long time, it's not like it's some crazy new idea. Same goes for themed PTs. They're not some revolutionary shit either. Just a fun way to boost activity and keeps things more active. Having themed PTs or things like that wouldn't be copying. Most of these leagues I've been in have some sort of thing like that every once in awhile.

Dude, the HoF thing was a sarcastic joke  Hopefully I haven't been "punk'd" and you were aware haha

 

Good idea for a PT tbh.

[Gudnason 607]

Let's do a league reset with a fantasy draft. Instead of just picking position talent and agent like in S1 you now also have to factor in career status, as in how many years left they have before they auto retire. Someone should get 10 people together and do a 8-10 round mock draft PT.

Edited September 27, 2017 by punkhippie

[Banackock 8,049]

6 minutes ago, punkhippie said:

Let's do a league reset with a fantasy draft. Instead of just picking position talent and agent like in S1 you now also have to factor in career status, as in how many years left they have before they auto retire. Someone should get 10 people together and do a 8-10 round mock draft PT.

imo, would be fun for about 3 days. The moment the draft was over, nah. 

 

Teams have put in too much work to "reset". Good idea for a PT though  

[Beketov 9,025]

8 hours ago, Banackock said:

I have an idea for a "once a career" writinf thing, but wont release it until @Beketovuts me in BOG

@Higgins is handling the new BOG appointments, not me.

[DollarAndADream 3,356]

8 hours ago, Banackock said:

Dude, the HoF thing was a sarcastic joke  Hopefully I haven't been "punk'd" and you were aware haha

 

Good idea for a PT tbh.

I know you were being sarcastic. I'm just trying to say for these kinds of things, PT ideas etc, it's not some revolutionary thing and nobody should even give a fuck if people think the VHL is "copying" them.

[Devise 4,475]

19 hours ago, JardyB10 said:

- However, you just gave me an idea that potentially presents an opportunity to potentially utilize all these ideas in a manner that isn't necessarily fucking dumb: What if we made the VHLM exclusive to first-generation members? And re-creates would have to either go straight to the VHL, or maybe have their own league yet.

 

This. Instead of making it first gen vs returning user, why not make it as simple as, if you use carryover, you go to the VHL immediately. We have a waiver claim system then in the VHL, and we have no worries about rewarding recreates with more carryover at that point, maybe up to 150-200? Because at that point we have no issues with them interfering with first gens trying to make an impact in the VHLM. 

[Gudnason 607]

28 minutes ago, Devise said:

 

This. Instead of making it first gen vs returning user, why not make it as simple as, if you use carryover, you go to the VHL immediately. We have a waiver claim system then in the VHL, and we have no worries about rewarding recreates with more carryover at that point, maybe up to 150-200? Because at that point we have no issues with them interfering with first gens trying to make an impact in the VHLM. 

 

Dope idea let's implement it. And while we're at it keep the VHLM cap at 175 applied/200 banked but make their 8-year clock not start until they hit the VHL.

Edited September 27, 2017 by punkhippie

[Fire Tortorella 2,653]

1 hour ago, Devise said:

 

This. Instead of making it first gen vs returning user, why not make it as simple as, if you use carryover, you go to the VHL immediately. We have a waiver claim system then in the VHL, and we have no worries about rewarding recreates with more carryover at that point, maybe up to 150-200? Because at that point we have no issues with them interfering with first gens trying to make an impact in the VHLM. 

 

Why does it matter if a player in the VHLM is a first-gen or a returning member? A 50 TPE player is a 50 TPE player and a 175 TPE player is a 175 TPE player regardless of if they're a new member of a returning one.

 

I've still yet to hear a solid idea on how to get these players onto a VHL team fairly. Do we really want a situation where a championship contending team holds open a roster spot and cap space for a top-end re-create to either join that team immediately or be traded from another team? Adding players to the VHL any way other than through the draft, even if just for half a season, seems extremely dumb and unnecessary. 

[Devise 4,475]

38 minutes ago, Fire Hakstol said:

Why does it matter if a player in the VHLM is a first-gen or a returning member? A 50 TPE player is a 50 TPE player and a 175 TPE player is a 175 TPE player regardless of if they're a new member of a returning one.

 

I think you missed the part where several members (most of them first gens) have commented that they dislike getting thrashed by higher TPE/returning members in the VHLM. Recreates in the VHLM start with more TPE, historically earn more especially if they are coming from high valued agents, and furthermore are basically some of most hotly sought after players. Once recreation time kicks in, VHLM GM's are usually trying to get quality players for a playoff run, or to use as trade bait to stock up and make a playoff run. It's how it's always been. We put so much focus on the recreates in the VHLM, that making it a "non-recreate" league instead puts the focus on new members and new players. Where it should be. 

 

38 minutes ago, Fire Hakstol said:

I've still yet to hear a solid idea on how to get these players onto a VHL team fairly. Do we really want a situation where a championship contending team holds open a roster spot and cap space for a top-end re-create to either join that team immediately or be traded from another team? Adding players to the VHL any way other than through the draft, even if just for half a season, seems extremely dumb and unnecessary. 

 

Why is it dumb and unnecessary? Traditionally, what is the biggest lull of any VHL season? Trade deadline. While in the VHLM GM's are competing over recreates and potential new members trying to get that extra TPE bonus for creating at the right time, nothing happens in the VHL. This would change that. It would put basically the equivalent of first year rookies from a VHL perspective in a spot to help complete teams for depth, give teams cap room, and open the door for more trade and interest during a regular season period that has generally none. What harm does it do to the VHLM? it gets these whales from stomping all over VHLM stats, and puts them on a team temporarily. 

 

As for the system. Some sort of bidding/cap space system is probably in order. Consider that this would benefit rebuilding teams, and allow them opportunities to leverage more assets. They could offer more money to a recreate waiver player, acquiring their services, then go and deadline flip them to a team with a little less space. And then of course that player would otherwise be drafted the season following their recreation. 

 

You know what else this does? Allows those that recreate at the deadline not to milk a free 150+ TPE and start their 1st VHL seasons with 300+, allowing them to really quickly become competent players. Sure they could hound out some TPE with a higher recreation starting point, but they aren't getting Achievement Tracker, an extra free PT per week for training facility. The more and more I dissect this the more I think it makes perfect sense. If your a heavy recreate and you've got all those former TPE players behind your belt, you don't need all the bonus that users in the VHLM get. Those are meant to be boosts to encourage and help people get to the VHL. Giving recreates the higher carry over rewards them fine for their services, and we still wouldn't be removing a returning members ability to decide to do VHLM either. They'd just have to give up their recreate TPE. This makes the VHLM a balanced experience for every user, because every single user starts off with the same amount of TPE.

[JardyB10 4,865]

22 hours ago, Banackock said:

No. Activity check wouldn't bring about activity. Would be like another scavenger hunt or stat hunt. Find it, post it and move on. Easy, meaningless TPE. 

 

I'm simply saying, while I may be the dumbest person ever (hah), I don't see anything wrong with themed PT's. Does the SHL have them? YES. Does it drive in activity? YES. Is it fun to read some of them? YES. Is it easier and more enjoyable to write them? Sometimes.

DAMMIT BANANA, when did I say themed point tasks were a bad idea? Or that you're dumb? AND WHAT PART OF "This is the only thread I've had a chance to read through," DID YOU NOT UNDERSTAND! I literally don't even know what you're talking about ! Yes, themed point tasks sound fun, and apparently they exist in the SHL. It's a good idea.

 

I suppose I should rephrase: There's nothing wrong with adopting other good, non-QoL changes as well. I'm just saying in general, if we want to eventually thrive we will want to come up with ideas that make us UNIQUE, otherwise we risk becoming a second-rate version of other leagues, which is especially criminal since literally every new league that pops up should be a second-rate version of us!

 

I know you don't disagree with that, and I don't disagree with you either, so I didn't mean to offend you!

[JardyB10 4,865]

2 hours ago, Devise said:

 

I think you missed the part where several members (most of them first gens) have commented that they dislike getting thrashed by higher TPE/returning members in the VHLM. Recreates in the VHLM start with more TPE, historically earn more especially if they are coming from high valued agents, and furthermore are basically some of most hotly sought after players. Once recreation time kicks in, VHLM GM's are usually trying to get quality players for a playoff run, or to use as trade bait to stock up and make a playoff run. It's how it's always been. We put so much focus on the recreates in the VHLM, that making it a "non-recreate" league instead puts the focus on new members and new players. Where it should be. 

 

 

Why is it dumb and unnecessary? Traditionally, what is the biggest lull of any VHL season? Trade deadline. While in the VHLM GM's are competing over recreates and potential new members trying to get that extra TPE bonus for creating at the right time, nothing happens in the VHL. This would change that. It would put basically the equivalent of first year rookies from a VHL perspective in a spot to help complete teams for depth, give teams cap room, and open the door for more trade and interest during a regular season period that has generally none. What harm does it do to the VHLM? it gets these whales from stomping all over VHLM stats, and puts them on a team temporarily. 

 

As for the system. Some sort of bidding/cap space system is probably in order. Consider that this would benefit rebuilding teams, and allow them opportunities to leverage more assets. They could offer more money to a recreate waiver player, acquiring their services, then go and deadline flip them to a team with a little less space. And then of course that player would otherwise be drafted the season following their recreation. 

 

You know what else this does? Allows those that recreate at the deadline not to milk a free 150+ TPE and start their 1st VHL seasons with 300+, allowing them to really quickly become competent players. Sure they could hound out some TPE with a higher recreation starting point, but they aren't getting Achievement Tracker, an extra free PT per week for training facility. The more and more I dissect this the more I think it makes perfect sense. If your a heavy recreate and you've got all those former TPE players behind your belt, you don't need all the bonus that users in the VHLM get. Those are meant to be boosts to encourage and help people get to the VHL. Giving recreates the higher carry over rewards them fine for their services, and we still wouldn't be removing a returning members ability to decide to do VHLM either. They'd just have to give up their recreate TPE. This makes the VHLM a balanced experience for every user, because every single user starts off with the same amount of TPE.

To play my own devil's advocate here though, this may as well just be a convoluted way of effectively removing carryover altogether. Especially if this is combined with "8 season clock doesn't start until VHL." Because if that was the case, who the hell would accept carryover?

 

A fresh player gets:

- 30 TPE to start

- 1-3 seasons in the VHLM, which provide

    - Up to 20 TPE/season for achievement tracker

    - Up to 8/9 TPE/season for VHLM Practice

    - Extra opportunity TPE at VHLM Fantasy

    - Small opportunity of winning individual VHLM awards

    - A rookie season in the VHL at 175+ TPE.

 

A re-create gets:

- 1-45 extra TPE than a fresh player

- Mercilessly shit-kicked in the VHL for 1-2 seasons

 

There would need to be some balancing tweaks for sure if we were to go that strict a route. Removing the carryover cap immediately springs to mind, perhaps even increasing carryover percentage. Also @Fire Hakstol isn't wrong that it might ultimately not be that much of a difference. If I'm a new member, do I even know the difference between a re-create who started the season kind of at the same time as me going HAM in the VHLM, and a new member who joined and was drafted the previous season, and this season is going HAM in the VHLM? You'd think it would feel daunting either way. Though the number of OP players would be down for sure.

 

Speaking of Jimmy G, I think you might be overvaluing a waiver claim re-create, if the proposal stays exactly as it is. Even if someone re-created within the first few days of the season with maximum 75 TPE carryover, there's about 6-7 weeks of regular season. If he/she earns max TPE a week, plus let's say a random 20 TPE of uncapped shit, they're sitting at 158 TPE by playoffs. There is two players that participated in playoffs with those kinds of numbers; inactive Jakub Pastrnak on Riga at 187 TPE, and Jean-Claude Girard on Toronto at 101 TPE. The latter got 1 assist before being ousted by Calgary, and Pastrnak admittedly did fairly well and was one of Riga's top scorers. Which is probably why they lost.

 

All the same, we will in fact need some kind of fair system in place. The main thing to figure out is how to deal with trade deadline re-creates. Do they stay on their waiver team until the draft? Or do we add a supplementary draft every season?

Edited September 28, 2017 by JardyB10

[Devise 4,475]

@JardyB10 I expressed interest in increasing the carry over percentages and the cap. Honestly could start recreates with 200 cap.