Splitting carryover and creation and bumping up the VHLM cap

[.sniffuM 1,741]

I know this has come up before but I looked for a whole 2 minutes on my phone and couldn't find the thread. I believe it would be beneficial to separate creation TPE and carryover. Hitting the necessary thresholds for carryover is easier with 12 weekly capped but it doesn't make sense to me that carryover is effectively limited to 45 and requires a certain threshold to have. I also think the percentages should be re-worked with higher TPE counts.

 

The more controversial opinion here is to bump the VHLM cap from 175 to 200. If players max out at 100 from creation+carryover, it doesn't make sense to keep the cap at 175 imo. With more TPE going around and all that, I'd say a 200 cap is reasonable. Sure, it increases the difference between the best VHLM players and the worst ones, but it also gives new members more breathing room on their builds before they cap out.

 

Discus.

[Beaviss 4,958]

Agree with all of this.

[Banackock 8,123]

20 minutes ago, Beaviss said:

Agree with all of this.

What he said.

 

I've brought this up before in the past. I can't remember for sure, but it wasn't that long ago and it wasn't welcomed with a warm hug in the BoG if my mind remembers correctly. The VHLM is big and it is a players goal to make it into the VHL, but I feel as though some stability and lesser turnover in the VHLM could be very great for new members and the VHLM/VHL as a whole too. We have two leagues, we can't neglect one and have full attention on the other. The VHL is great. Recruitment is better than ever because of the amazing recruitment team we have.

 

In my eyes and a spot where people tend to not think of, but the VHLM is one of the "roots" if you will to retention and without strong roots - or damaged roots, you're plant will never grow or be strong.

 

I like the idea of a 200 cap, with extending the banked to 225 (25 banked). I'd even go as far to liking the idea of allowing 50-75 banked - which would allow players to stay down an extra season. Especially if we're bringing in "VHLM Hall of Fame" and records. We don't want it filled to the brinks with inactives, so this may be a great doorway to possibilities for the league and retention. 

 

My thoughts:

TPE Cap: 

200 TPE

 

Banked CAP:

25-75

 

I'd be more happy meeting in the middle or at 75. Especially with the carryover cap situation brought up in the OP.

 

 

[.sniffuM 1,741]

I need someone to argue with in here so this is seen and discussed more. I nominate @Devise.

[jacobaa19 191]

This is trash!!! BOOOOO

[.sniffuM 1,741]

2 minutes ago, jacobaa19 said:

This is trash!!! BOOOOO

 

ill fukin slit ur achilles bish

[jacobaa19 191]

6 minutes ago, .sniffuM said:

 

ill fukin slit ur achilles bish

Try me bish

[Fire Tortorella 2,653]

The 45 carryover TPE is no different than before except the first 30 is free so I don't see why we'd need to change it. You used to give up the 3 double PTs to get carryover in the first place so there is no net difference and I don't see why we should give a new player even more TPE for something a previous player did - you already get the extra 45 TPE and a possible +1 to welfare.

 

I also don't see the point in raising the VHLM cap. The VHLM exists to promote players into the VHL and provide them an opportunity to learn the league and not completely suck/actually put up points and stay interested. Raising the cap just delays that graduation .

[.sniffuM 1,741]

2 hours ago, Fire Hakstol said:

The 45 carryover TPE is no different than before except the first 30 is free so I don't see why we'd need to change it. You used to give up the 3 double PTs to get carryover in the first place so there is no net difference and I don't see why we should give a new player even more TPE for something a previous player did - you already get the extra 45 TPE and a possible +1 to welfare.

 

I also don't see the point in raising the VHLM cap. The VHLM exists to promote players into the VHL and provide them an opportunity to learn the league and not completely suck/actually put up points and stay interested. Raising the cap just delays that graduation .

 

Carryover used to be uncapped, then it got to be ridiculous. Then it was capped at 75, and all was well. Then it got to the point where you needed a certain amount of TPE to even get carryover, and even then the max from it was only 45, which still takes work to get into but feels insignificant to me compared to other leagues and what it used to be here.

 

On the topic of raising the VHLM cap, it makes sense to me with all the other changes the league has recently made to TPE earning. An extra 25 TPE is equivalent to ~8 weeks of new cap earning with the raise from 9 to 12 (and with practice facility going up from 1 to 2 for VHLM players, technically speaking ~6 weeks), definitely attainable for a big chunk of the active VHLMers considering a good amount of them spend at least 8 weeks there pre-draft. This one could possibly wait until the league reaps the rewards a little more from the influx of members the last couple seasons, but I'm really deadset on carryover and creation TPE being run together as a pointless, bad idea from the moment it was implemented. No other league I know of forces you to forgo your creation TPE for carryover, they all let you use both in conjunction.

[.sniffuM 1,741]

On 8/20/2018 at 8:23 PM, .sniffuM said:

On the topic of raising the VHLM cap, it makes sense to me with all the other changes the league has recently made to TPE earning. An extra 25 TPE is equivalent to ~8 weeks of new cap earning with the raise from 9 to 12 (and with practice facility going up from 1 to 2 for VHLM players, technically speaking ~6 weeks), definitely attainable for a big chunk of the active VHLMers considering a good amount of them spend at least 8 weeks there pre-draft. This one could possibly wait until the league reaps the rewards a little more from the influx of members the last couple seasons, but I'm really deadset on carryover and creation TPE being run together as a pointless, bad idea from the moment it was implemented. No other league I know of forces you to forgo your creation TPE for carryover, they all let you use both in conjunction.

 

I think this needs to be re-stated. The VHLM Cap has been increased, time to re-consider this change as well. It makes way more sense than saying "hey, you weren't active enough to deserve any carryover!".

[Beaviss 4,958]

21 minutes ago, .sniffuM said:

 

I think this needs to be re-stated. The VHLM Cap has been increased, time to re-consider this change as well. It makes way more sense than saying "hey, you weren't active enough to deserve any carryover!".

 

Agreed the carryover max should be 100 (I might be biased though)

[Quik 4,113]

20 minutes ago, .sniffuM said:

 

I think this needs to be re-stated. The VHLM Cap has been increased, time to re-consider this change as well. It makes way more sense than saying "hey, you weren't active enough to deserve any carryover!".

 

Honestly, I don't know when it became a thing that every player starts with 30, no matter what. I know that the 30 base to start began after I went inactive the first time, possibly even after Gallo. To me, when it was first talked about, though, it was supposed to be only a first gen thing, to help new recruits get their foot in the door and not get blasted by guys with max carryover. Once that member re-created, it was supposed to be their carryover that they used, not the free 30, so it was a true max of 75 carryover, rather than really a 45 max that it is now...

 

Not that I'm really against leaving it as it is, but I don't think more TPE for recreates is really the answer either. I'd prefer to go the other route, though I can see why people would be against it.

[Beketov 9,095]

7 minutes ago, Quik said:

 

Honestly, I don't know when it became a thing that every player starts with 30, no matter what. I know that the 30 base to start began after I went inactive the first time, possibly even after Gallo. To me, when it was first talked about, though, it was supposed to be only a first gen thing, to help new recruits get their foot in the door and not get blasted by guys with max carryover. Once that member re-created, it was supposed to be their carryover that they used, not the free 30, so it was a true max of 75 carryover, rather than really a 45 max that it is now...

 

Not that I'm really against leaving it as it is, but I don't think more TPE for recreates is really the answer either. I'd prefer to go the other route, though I can see why people would be against it.

Yeah, I’m not sure what happened there. My guess is a few mistakenly took the 30 + carryover and it just kinda stuck. Honestly I’d prefer either just saying carryover is limited to 50 (just a nicer number) with everyone getting the starting 30 or have it as originally intended with starting 30 being for first gens and carryover being for re-creates. Maybe with a grace period of sorts that when re-creating you can take whichever is higher which would allow for people to at minimum start with 30.

[.sniffuM 1,741]

28 minutes ago, Beketov said:

Yeah, I’m not sure what happened there. My guess is a few mistakenly took the 30 + carryover and it just kinda stuck. Honestly I’d prefer either just saying carryover is limited to 50 (just a nicer number) with everyone getting the starting 30 or have it as originally intended with starting 30 being for first gens and carryover being for re-creates. Maybe with a grace period of sorts that when re-creating you can take whichever is higher which would allow for people to at minimum start with 30.

 

I'd be down with carryover being 50 rather than the 70 in my suggestion as long as it's separate from creation TPE. It'd make for a smoother transition than going to 100 potential creation so that should work pretty seamlessly. Should re-work carryover percentages to make them harsher though (which needed to happen with the weekly cap bump anyways).

[Baozi 1,662]

Going to derail the thread and also say we should bump up the required TPE gain for welfare level 2.

[Will 4,662]

21 hours ago, Quik said:

 

Honestly, I don't know when it became a thing that every player starts with 30, no matter what. I know that the 30 base to start began after I went inactive the first time, possibly even after Gallo. To me, when it was first talked about, though, it was supposed to be only a first gen thing, to help new recruits get their foot in the door and not get blasted by guys with max carryover. Once that member re-created, it was supposed to be their carryover that they used, not the free 30, so it was a true max of 75 carryover, rather than really a 45 max that it is now...

 

Not that I'm really against leaving it as it is, but I don't think more TPE for recreates is really the answer either. I'd prefer to go the other route, though I can see why people would be against it.

 

I know when I joined you got your first three PT's doubled, for a total of 18 'bonus TPE'. If you were re-creating and had carryover less than 18, you could choose to take the double weeks instead. So when we started giving 30 to new creates it became if carryover less than 30 you can be treated as a new create.

[Quik 4,113]

18 minutes ago, Will said:

 

I know when I joined you got your first three PT's doubled, for a total of 18 'bonus TPE'. If you were re-creating and had carryover less than 18, you could choose to take the double weeks instead. So when we started giving 30 to new creates it became if carryover less than 30 you can be treated as a new create.

 

Yeah, I mean that makes a bit of sense, but it kinda doesn't at the same time when you consider that the first gen purchase requires you to basically be inactive for 6 months before you can buy it.

 

I think for now, we're ok leaving it as is. With the other stuff that's being discussed, we'll need to figure this stuff out anyways, so no point in making changes twice.

[Da Trifecta 1,902]

1 hour ago, tfong said:

Going to derail the thread and also say we should bump up the required TPE gain for welfare level 2.

 

I'm going to go against that and say welfare should be lowered.

[Fire Tortorella 2,653]

Reminder for @flyersfan1453 to post when he gets home.

[Fire Tortorella 2,653]

My memory - it is supposed to be 30 TPE OR carryover with a cap of 75 TPE, so a re-creating member could theoretically have a 45 TPE advantage over a first-gen. This was done in order to allow new members/players the option to customize their player immediately instead of having to wait to earn TPE.

 

I would not be in favor of increasing re-create TPE over the 75 cap it is now. 45 TPE is enough of an advantage to have over a new member to give you a heads start, and I'm not in favor of increasing the benefits that re-creating members get over new members. 

[Beketov 9,095]

11 hours ago, flyersfan1453 said:

My memory - it is supposed to be 30 TPE OR carryover with a cap of 75 TPE, so a re-creating member could theoretically have a 45 TPE advantage over a first-gen. This was done in order to allow new members/players the option to customize their player immediately instead of having to wait to earn TPE.

 

I would not be in favor of increasing re-create TPE over the 75 cap it is now. 45 TPE is enough of an advantage to have over a new member to give you a heads start, and I'm not in favor of increasing the benefits that re-creating members get over new members. 

I think the problem with it is that 30 TPE base means a barrier of entry for carryover so if someone retires early they end up likely getting 0 from that player. I don’t think that’s the end of the world in this case as much as what we’ve been doing though because you wouldn’t get carryover TPE but you would get starting 30 while carryover doesn’t sonit all evens out in the end.

 

Honestly it makes the most sense just as it made the most sense back then. I think 1 generation probably screwed it up and set everyone off down the wrong path.