With sixteen teams... is it finally time to upgrade to STHS 1.5?

[Peace 1,518]

So I'm assuming this is common knowledge at this point: it appears the sim we're using is (still) the 1.1 version of SimonT Hockey Simulator... and it's honestly a little underwhelming. I've noticed that us GMs have no real control over our strategies, ice time sliders or a few of the lines we actually thought were used. Ice time is dependent on where you're placed within the forward/defensive lines, 3on3 doesn't exist in 1.1 and the only strategy teams adhere to is already globally set.

 

Forwards who play on the first and third get nearly 30 or more minutes on a team with nine forwards, yet they're dumped down to 20-23 minutes if they're on the 1/4 rotation, even if the ice-time slider is much higher for line one than any other line. Similar for defenders, and it's the same story on the powerplay and penalty kill. Strategies? They've got no effect, I've taken the last three seasons as a sample size, they've got absolutely zero perceivable changes beyond the default settings. 

From the manual itself: 

Disadvantage:

• New features since 2010 are not added in the code (Referee/Lineman, Line/Team strategies, Percentage of ice time per line does not apply, etc).
• Some stats are not count and will always show at 0 in the simulator
• A lot of new functionalities are not implemented (For example, 3 vs 3 overtime)

  

I've been testing out the strategies on the STHS V3 client and sure enough... it doesn't seem like there is any honest change to the way Toronto is playing. 5CK-0DF-0OF didn't yield any more hits than another game where we were 0CK-5DF-0OF or 0CK-0DF-5OF. I even tested what 1-0-0, 0-1-0, 0-0-1 did and they all simmed normally. In fact I think we won those games back in 74! 

So I ask the community a question... I guess really this is addressed to the simmers and commissioners. 

When can we upgrade to 1.5 and add those features to our sim? 

I know it's a balancing act, so maybe it's time for a public test run.

I think we've got enough teams now.

 

We've certainly got the user base for it.

Edited January 31, 2021 by Peace

[Banackock 7,989]

[Kachur 112]

I like this proposal. It's time for a cosmic shift in this league. I think this will actually help us grow. 

 

Do it @Beketov

[diacope 1,696]

Wow didn't know that. Definitely needs to happen, 100%!

[Will 4,660]

I'm sure someone would be willing to run some more test sims to see anything's changed- keep in mind we have spent a lot of time trying to upgrade the engine in the past so it's not a matter of the blue team being unwilling, it's just a matter of being able to get reasonable results. 

 

As far as 1.5 in particular, I think we've been able to get some semi-decent results in the past so there's some chance it could be viable. Unfortunately we've never had any luck with 2.0 or 2.1 to get giveaways and takeaways and I don't think we'll ever get there without major changes to the league. 

[Kachur 112]

1 minute ago, Will said:

I'm sure someone would be willing to run some more test sims to see anything's changed- keep in mind we have spent a lot of time trying to upgrade the engine in the past so it's not a matter of the blue team being unwilling, it's just a matter of being able to get reasonable results. 

 

As far as 1.5 in particular, I think we've been able to get some semi-decent results in the past so there's some chance it could be viable. Unfortunately, we've never had any luck with 2.0 or 2.1 to get giveaways and takeaways and I don't think we'll ever get there without major changes to the league. 

Maybe it's time for Major Changes?

[Peace 1,518]

14 minutes ago, Will said:

I'm sure someone would be willing to run some more test sims to see anything's changed- keep in mind we have spent a lot of time trying to upgrade the engine in the past so it's not a matter of the blue team being unwilling, it's just a matter of being able to get reasonable results. 

 

As far as 1.5 in particular, I think we've been able to get some semi-decent results in the past so there's some chance it could be viable. Unfortunately we've never had any luck with 2.0 or 2.1 to get giveaways and takeaways and I don't think we'll ever get there without major changes to the league. 

 

I would absolutely participate in any open tests the league would like to try. I know private testing has happened in the past, but sim an entire VHL-like season with all sixteen teams and every player in an open format and see how GMs like it over 1.1; players themselves won't be affected too much from the change as they don't have access to the features 1.5 brings, but through them a GM has more control of how the team sims itself which does affect those players. 

I think it be worth trying! 

[ROOKIE745 599]

I support.

 

[Beketov 8,953]

8 hours ago, ATST said:

Maybe it's time for Major Changes?

We’ve tried to come up with those as well but even very significant changes still lead to it being broken. We’re talking 450+ point seasons level broken. It’s not designed to work with 99 attributes. It’s also known for less realistic results, even people who run it in GM leagues with attributes it’s designed for admit this. Giveaways and Takeaways aren’t worth completely overhauling the league and having less realistic results.

[Peace 1,518]

22 minutes ago, Beketov said:

We’ve tried to come up with those as well but even very significant changes still lead to it being broken. We’re talking 450+ point seasons level broken. It’s not designed to work with 99 attributes. It’s also known for less realistic results, even people who run it in GM leagues with attributes it’s designed for admit this. Giveaways and Takeaways aren’t worth completely overhauling the league and having less realistic results.

Is that with 1.5 or 2.0, 2.1 and 3.0? 

[Beketov 8,953]

1 hour ago, Peace said:

Is that with 1.5 or 2.0, 2.1 and 3.0? 

There is no 3.0; that’s 2.0 and 2.1 that @Will mentioned.

 

1.5 we did test and it did mess with things but I don’t recall how substantially.

[Kachur 112]

2 hours ago, Beketov said:

We’ve tried to come up with those as well but even very significant changes still lead to it being broken. We’re talking 450+ point seasons level broken. It’s not designed to work with 99 attributes. It’s also known for less realistic results, even people who run it in GM leagues with attributes it’s designed for admitting this. Giveaways and Takeaways aren’t worth completely overhauling the league and having less realistic results.

What versions where used?

 

What exactly was broken? Was it just the points or other game breaking things (not familiar with STHS) 

[Peace 1,518]

1 hour ago, Beketov said:

There is no 3.0; that’s 2.0 and 2.1 that @Will mentioned.

 

1.5 we did test and it did mess with things but I don’t recall how substantially.

Sounds like it's time for a public test then!

How hard would it be to sim an unofficial season over the course of two-ish weeks and collect feedback from the community and GMs? 

[Beketov 8,953]

15 minutes ago, Peace said:

Sounds like it's time for a public test then!

How hard would it be to sim an unofficial season over the course of two-ish weeks and collect feedback from the community and GMs? 

Unofficial isn’t a good test, doesn’t change lines, have trades, etc. Only accurate way to test is full ghost seasons IE using the same lines and stuff but on different versions.

 

34 minutes ago, ATST said:

What versions where used?

 

What exactly was broken? Was it just the points or other game breaking things (not familiar with STHS) 

The stats are the main thing but even Simon’s documentation notes that V2 is less prone to realistic results than V1 is.

[Peace 1,518]

2 minutes ago, Beketov said:

Unofficial isn’t a good test, doesn’t change lines, have trades, etc. Only accurate way to test is full ghost seasons IE using the same lines and stuff but on different versions.

Let's do it. 

Side by side results and comparisons. 

 

[Beketov 8,953]

Just now, Peace said:

Let's do it. 

Side by side results and comparisons. 

 

That’s not something we can set up mid-season but we can look at running it again next season. Just need an extra simmer on board to run it.

 

@Josh you ram the ghost last time right? Do we have the results somewhere or were we messing with more than just the version?

[Josh 1,656]

2 hours ago, Beketov said:

That’s not something we can set up mid-season but we can look at running it again next season. Just need an extra simmer on board to run it.

 

@Josh you ram the ghost last time right? Do we have the results somewhere or were we messing with more than just the version?

 

I have them somewhere. I believe that was with 12 teams though.

[Beketov 8,953]

15 minutes ago, Josh said:

 

I have them somewhere. I believe that was with 12 teams though.

We’d still have the normal sim as a control group for comparison so amount of teams doesn’t matter. What matters is if the version is the only thing we changed. If we were messing with other stuff we can’t guarantee what caused changes.

[Banackock 7,989]

16 teams.. Theres only one thing this means... Jakab Holik’s son... Jakab Holik Jr... comes to the VHL to finish off his dads business with Seattle. 
 

@Beketov

[Beketov 8,953]

17 minutes ago, Banackock said:

16 teams.. Theres only one thing this means... Jakab Holik’s son... Jakab Holik Jr... comes to the VHL to finish off his dads business with Seattle. 
 

@Beketov

I mean my next player was going to be a goalie but calling him Holik Jr. just seems like it would be tempting fate.

[Victor 10,845]

1 hour ago, Beketov said:

my next player was going to be a goalie

so you have chosen pain

[Beketov 8,953]

4 minutes ago, Victor said:

so you have chosen pain

It is a pain I know at least.

[Peace 1,518]

Apparently I need to create drama to get this seen a little more... 

So uh... 

Hey Commish team!