Doc Holliday

6 minutes ago, PotatoKing said:

 

How can intent be "essentially irrelevant"? I cannot accurately predict the impact of my words, as I suspect, not many people can. People can perceive and interpret words in several possible ways, the only way to communicate clearly between each other is to clarify the intent behind those words. Words are just imperfect vessels that help transmit our thoughts from one individual to another.

 

Let me illustrate: I am assuming in good faith that your intent, by replying to me, was simply to voice out your thoughts here, chime in or elaborate on a specific point. But if I was to interpret your words as a personal attack on me, as if you were deeming yourself superior to me and talking down to me, who would be in the wrong? You, for using a sequence of words that hurt me, or me for too quickly assuming you meant to hurt me? Well, that depends on the intent behind your words, does it not?

 

Thanks for the input, much appreciated. 

 

Maintaining the good faith approach: as I understand it, my role would be to apologize for the impact of my words being hurtful and attempt to correct that in the future. In theory, if that is engaged in good faith all the way around, it's a much better discourse for everyone, right?

 

Also--I think perhaps a better phrase would have been "functionally irrelevant." The idea is that impact isn't dependent on intent, so arguments of "I didn't mean it that way" don't lessen the impact.

 

Just some things I've encountered recently that have helped me in thinking about what I say and how I say it. Thought it'd be germane here. I won't say I'm the expert--this is all based on how I've understood and attempted to implement this.

8 minutes ago, PotatoKing said:

I do not, and cannot know what may or may not potentially offend someone because offense is taken rather than given.

 

I think this is an important point that often gets missed. However, I'd argue the onus is still on you to consider this when choosing your words. There is a lot of talk about intent in semantics--e.g. "I didn't mean it like that"--but intent is essentially irrelevant. Rather than considering intent, you ought to consider impact. How did the people who heard the words receive them? Especially someone who identifies as LGBTQ? Given their history, they're likely going to hear "gay" referring to their sexuality rather than the archaic meaning that, despite your claim earlier, is not really widely used anymore. So the impact is such that "this is big gay," which context tells us means "I don't like this" or "this is bad," will land on an LGBTQ person and feel like an indirect statement about who they are.

 

So yes, offense is taken. But if you pay attention to what people say offends them, often you can anticipate it and not use vocabulary that is likely to cause offense.

 

Also, while I'm here: cheers to the BOG for taking this seriously. When all the fracas started, I had hoped to do my part to help curb a thing I've seen in many corners of the internet, and even if the process wasn't exactly smooth or pretty, I'm glad VHL will be a more welcoming place for future members.

5 minutes ago, Peace said:

Gay literally has more than one defining meaning. Automatically assuming it's always a homophobic slur is just you contributing to the problem surrounding the word. 

The word has been in the English dictionary for a long time, and it was originally meant to designate people who were bright and carefree - not someone who was attracted to the same sex and preferred sexual intercourse with them. Society turned the word negative, and shame on you for continuing to make it automatically negative - context be damned.

 

Yes but you and I both know that meaning is antiquated and does not reflect common usage in the 21st century. But let's put that aside. Let's look at Josh's original post. How exactly does "carefree" fit into the sentiment of "This is big gay" in his response to losing in the finals?

 

You're the one who is ignoring context here in order to defend something I think should be indefensible.

3 minutes ago, Beketov said:

I said several times in here that I would be talking to them later. I’ve literally been at work while trying to deal with all of this so I haven’t had time to get into a deeper conversation. I’m not sure how me saying “I’ll talk to them about this and how it’s not okay” comes off as nothing is going to happen.

 

The issue I have with your response is more the "ah well it's just how things are around here." You're allowed to run your league however you want, but I don't want to be a part of a community that is okay with homophobic shit like that being thrown around. I'm not quitting over a single post, but really a characteristic of the community nobody is interested in changing.

4 minutes ago, Jayrad28 said:

 

Yeah but the words werwnt even that bad, there are so many worse things he could’ve said, he was pissed his team lost and probably didn’t think people would get upset about this.

 

4 minutes ago, Jayrad28 said:

Not defending it.

 

5 minutes ago, Jayrad28 said:

Someone should say something and give him a slap in the wrist for the first time offence and make sure something like this didn’t happen again

If you read what I said, I conceded that a warning would be a perfectly acceptable option. It would be a statement that this sort of conduct isn't acceptable in this community. But clearly, that isn't the case.

10 minutes ago, Jayrad28 said:

@Doc HollidayJeezus man who pissed in your frootloops?

 

The guy guys who used the homophobic language, did. I feel like that's pretty clear.

 

Edited, because I somehow accidentally keep letting Bana off the hook. Anyway, don't be an asshole to marginalized groups and you got no beef with me.

3 minutes ago, Beketov said:

I’m not making excuses for it but the VHL has usual had an “older internet” level of tolerance toward things.

 

Sounds an awful lot like an excuse to me.

 

9 minutes ago, Beketov said:

If you have a problem report it.

 

I have reported both posts in question, and I hope the mods take them seriously.

 

10 minutes ago, Beketov said:

An ill-advised one and one that shouldn’t be made but I’m not firing anyone over it. Call it what you will but we don’t punish people that severely for that, at least not right now.

 

we aren’t going to police every comment from every member.

 

While I understand these concerns from an admin perspective, I think at least a censure or warning of some kind is warranted. It sounds like you want to appease people who are upset by the language without actually having the offending parties suffer any consequences. Even if it's just "hey, watch your language or there will be more serious consequences," that's enough to tell me you take this sort of thing seriously. Instead, you trot out this idea of "older internet tolerance." I don't want to be a member of a community that tolerates any sort of discrimination like this.

 

9 minutes ago, Josh said:

If someone that was offended would have just approached me and said so, I would have removed the comment. Quoting it and personally attacking people isn't a great way to get positive results in any community.. much less this one.

 

I literally quoted it and said it was bullshit--how is that different than telling you it offended me? Or did you want the courtesy of not being called out in public? Because you don't get that courtesy once you cross into homophobia.

 

@Beketov look man, from the thread recently I know you're a busy guy, and I know running a site and community like this takes a lot. I don't want to take up any more of your time. I had respect for you as an admin--you seem pretty humble and aware of your limitations. That's great. But this is too much for me. I was so-so on sticking around based on actual league experience, but recent conduct from VHL members has made me never want to come back here. I want you to hear that you're losing a member over the "older internet tolerance" you don't want to ruffle. I'm retiring my player and I won't be coming back unless this community forces its members to do the bare minimum in not using discriminatory language. I hope you can see why that would be valuable to some people who might want to be a part of this community.

 

Peace and blessings to everyone except Josh and Bana, who can get fucked.

5 minutes ago, Beketov said:

don’t make a mountain out of a single comment someone makes when upset. If it bothers you that much bring it up with someone but let’s not get in a giant fight over this. 

 

I think you're giving them a lot of credit, Bek. Something tells me if you go search post history or Discord message history, this is going to be a trend.

 

But fine, who should I talk to about this? Because I do have a serious issue with it, and I think it is grounds for someone to be fired, or at the very least warned. Ask gorlab. He was banned from SBA over repeated comments like this, because they're incredibly offensive. To have a commissioner and GM openly talk like this, with one of them doubling down on it, only for them to merely get told to "calm down" is not a good look.

3 minutes ago, Josh said:

 

Ever consider not reading into literally everything to see if it offends you? Gay has about 20 different connotations. Maybe don't always assume the worst.

 

 

 

So, based on context, it seems like the connotation you're employing here is "bad." Considering it's a term for people who are homosexual, you can see why I'd take issue with the implication you're making.

 

Also, feel free to list all 20 of the "connotations" (which I'm assuming are different from definitions/meanings) of the word "gay." I'll wait.

5 minutes ago, Josh said:

 

Coming out of the woodwork to personally attack people based on a generic comment and I'm the child.

 '

 

Your league is showing lmao.

 

I'm attacking you because you're out here saying that bad = gay. That's insulting to a lot of people. Would you say "this is big black" or "this is big handicapped" in the same way?

 

Your homophobia is showing, bruv.

10 hours ago, Josh said:

This is big Gay.

 

The fuck kind of homophobic bullshit is this? Are you twelve?

 

Should hire real GMs.

 

Edit to add that it's even more insane and offensive that a commissioner talks like this.

 

10 hours ago, Banackock said:

Yukon is big gay.

 

I know everyone else has done him for Theme Week, but I've only been here for like a week. Give me a break!

6 hours ago, gorlab said:

oh ffs there is 6 of you??  alright you're on your own.

 

That's why I didn't bother--figured the reference was good enough.

1 hour ago, Molholt said:

Damn only 3 top prospects, Howe it stings.

 

Time to fight someone before the national anthem. Who's down for a donnybrook?

On 10/7/2019 at 10:48 AM, FrostBeard said:

Heya! @Doc Holliday welcome to VHL! Houston has a place for you! Yes, it won't be a lot of ice time this season, but we are going for the cup so being on our roster could result in great achievements! 

 

Choice is yours buddy!

 

Be sure to check what other teams offer and choose exactly what suits you best!

 

GM John Frostbeard

 

Accept!

 

Newest set of sextuplets coming at you @Molholt @emidas @Beowoof @TheNano74 @MWHazard

 

(Edited to update with higher-resolution image. Forum was compressing it terribly.)

Vancouver Wolves @ Helsinki Titans

 Moscow Menace @ New York Americans

Prague Phantoms @ Seattle Bears

Calgary Wranglers @ Toronto Legion

Helsinki 4-3

2 for Howe

Player Information

Username: Doc Holliday

Player Name: Doc Howe

Recruited From: SisterLeague

Age: 18

Position: D

Height: 80 in.

Weight: 250 lbs.

Birthplace: Antarctica

Player Page

@VHLM GM