Talking About What The VHL Needs with RJ : Demographics and Defenders

[BladeMaiden 1,807]

Talking About What The VHL Needs with RJ: Demographics and Defenders

https://anchor.fm/huddlehussy/episodes/Talking-About-What-The-VHL-Needs-with-RJ--Demographics-and-Defenders-e1b7d50

 

-#s and what they mean

- what we should do 

 

I will not be collecting on this podcast, Rj will be collecting for this whole podcast and I would like to thank him for talking with me about this topic @rjfryman this is 4 weeks for you. @Josh @Beketov this is an honest suggestion of some things the league needs to look at.  @Acydburn @Jubo @Banackock you get mentioned  as well as @Peace

 

D Spaces
16  VHL : 4 = 64 min / 8= 128 max    35 Current active (within a month 400+)
8 VHLE : 4 = 32 min / 8= 64  max      22 Current active (within a month 200-400)
10 VHLM : 4 = 40 min / 8= 80 max    40 Current active (within a month -200)
Total  min  =  136 / max = 272          97 total updated last month

 

Forward Spaces (Wing and C)
16 VHL: 6 = 96 min/ 12= 192 max        75 total  (LW: 22 RW: 22 C; 31) Current active within a month 400+
8 VHLE:  6 = 48 min/ 12= 96 max         53 total  (LW: 21 RW: 17 C; 15) Current active within a month 200-400
10 VHLM:  6 = 60 min/ 12= 120 max    95 total  (LW: 34 RW: 34 C; 27) Current active within a month -200
Total  min  =  204 / max = 408             223 total updated last month

 

G Spaces
16 VHL: Min 16/ Max 32                 14 Current active (within a month 400+)
8 VHLE: Min 8/ Max 16                    8 Current active (within a month 200-400)
10 VHLM: Min 10/ Max 20              29 Current active (within a month -200)
Total  min  =  34 / max = 68           51 total updated last month

->the logic of these are if the TPA not TPE of the following
    if tpa < 201 for under 200
    else if tpa < 401 for 200-400
    else for 400+

 

Not Retired : D 303 LW: 282 RW: 279 C ;288 G: 130
Last Month Updated : D 97 LW: 77 RW: 73 C ; 73 G: 51
Acitve Under 200 : D 40 LW: 34 RW: 34 C ;27 G: 29
Acitve 200-400  : D 22 LW: 21 RW: 17 C ; 15 G: 8
Acitve 400+  : D 35 LW: 22 RW: 22 C ; 31 G: 14

Edited December 3, 2021 by BladeMaiden

[Beketov 8,647]

21 minutes ago, BladeMaiden said:

@Josh @Beketov this is an honest suggestion of some things the league needs to look at.

As I will always say then: Can we get a TLDR version in text? It's much harder to handle important suggestions based on podcasts when we may or may not have the time to listen to it all.

[BladeMaiden 1,807]

Just now, Beketov said:

As I will always say then: Can we get a TLDR version in text? It's much harder to handle important suggestions based on podcasts when we may or may not have the time to listen to it all.

I'll make the time to write it up and tag you in it as my PT for this week. I'm not big on doing writing because i think my points come of more directly when i speak, after my TLDR and if you all decided to speak on it giving the podcast a listen though might provide some extra needed context. I hope this works for you  as i really do believe we have some minor kinks that need to be looked at  and it will affect the league as things progress.

[Banackock 7,656]

Way way way at the end, haha. Interesting listen. Thanks to you both. 

edit:

lmao at RJ stating it’s a fun little Easter egg for those who “wasted”/ been around this long lmaoooo

Edited December 3, 2021 by Banackock

[Banackock 7,656]

Also, Bana is a dman! I REALLY enjoy the position! 

[Josh 1,600]

I don't mind listening to podcasts I think it would just be helpful if you included some timestamps for the important stuff.

[Beketov 8,647]

11 hours ago, BladeMaiden said:

I'll make the time to write it up and tag you in it as my PT for this week. I'm not big on doing writing because i think my points come of more directly when i speak, after my TLDR and if you all decided to speak on it giving the podcast a listen though might provide some extra needed context. I hope this works for you  as i really do believe we have some minor kinks that need to be looked at  and it will affect the league as things progress.

That’s fine. Like @Josh said even a rough idea of where it is is fine. It’s just that if it’s an important topic but it’s buried in 5 minutes of an hour and a half I don’t have time to go fishing in the dark to find it.

[Shindigs 1,771]

As a new defensive defenseman. Having to manually track possession, as the league doesn't. Isn't exactly helping with the glory.

[Beketov 8,647]

38 minutes ago, Shindigs said:

Having to manually track possession, as the league doesn't.

The engine doesn’t*
 

Or rather if it does then it doesn’t output it in any useful manner. We can really only track what it spits out for us.

[Shindigs 1,771]

4 minutes ago, Beketov said:

The engine doesn’t*
 

Or rather if it does then it doesn’t output it in any useful manner. We can really only track what it spits out for us.

Damnit Simon! But doesn't @rjfrymanhave that handy tool that he made that reads the output and gives you all those stats? Isn't there some way to get that output in a way that can be applied to the portal?

[Beketov 8,647]

2 hours ago, Shindigs said:

Damnit Simon! But doesn't @rjfrymanhave that handy tool that he made that reads the output and gives you all those stats? Isn't there some way to get that output in a way that can be applied to the portal?

Yes and no. His stuff basically parses the full PbP that STHS analyzes and it looks for key things and then kinda translates them to usable stats. I think in theory we might be able to have those on the portal but I’m not sure as the portal pulls it’s data directly from the database. There’s also a risk that those stats aren’t the most accurate because the PbP may list something in a way that we assume means stat X but it might not actually be. I do suppose this would be even across the league but still.

[Shindigs 1,771]

13 hours ago, Beketov said:

Yes and no. His stuff basically parses the full PbP that STHS analyzes and it looks for key things and then kinda translates them to usable stats. I think in theory we might be able to have those on the portal but I’m not sure as the portal pulls it’s data directly from the database. There’s also a risk that those stats aren’t the most accurate because the PbP may list something in a way that we assume means stat X but it might not actually be. I do suppose this would be even across the league but still.

Yeah, as someone who manually tracks it for my own player/choice teammates I can say that there is certainly some wiggle room in what you might actually count. For example, a hit that leads to a loss of the puck. Is that a takeaway? Some will say yes across the board. My personal way of tracking it in the PbP is to check if the next entry isn't from a player on the same team that lost the puck. Because then it's actually a takeaway. But due to the formatting of the PbP you sometimes have to go to the next tick to find it. Sometimes the hit is the last thing to happen in a period so there's literally nothing after. Sometimes the hit leads to a penalty and a face-off. I'm assuming whatever he wrote takes all those cases into account. But it does leave quite a bit of wiggle room. Same with the low puck handling "Bo Johansson loses the puck". If your player/team mate gets to it first it's not really a giveaway. I've already had to redo all my stats because in the first few games there simply were 0 cases of some of the more "fringe" ways to lose the puck. So I didn't include it in my search criteria. The saddest part of that was losing Bo's +69 possession on the season. Upside being, that he can now reach it again!

 

Edit: Expanding on this with takeaways from hits rather than giveaways. Because that is where it gets real muddy. If Bo hits a player, and they lose the puck. IF Miami gets it, it's almost never going to be Bo that got it, as he is still recovering from throwing the hit. So then the question becomes, whose takeaway is is? Bo for throwing the hit that lead to the loss of the puck, or whichever Miami player skated onto the puck to make it an actual takeaway? There isn't a right answer to that question (I picked the player throwing the hit for my personal stats). Which then leads to the followup question: Should takeaways from hits simply not count? But if so then giveaways shouldn't either, or the entire league will have net negative possession instead of +/- 0. But at that point so many actual giveaways and takeaways aren't represented, simply because you don't know who to credit statistically, that the stat no longer really represents what it was meant to in the first place.

 

But if there IS a way to make it work, even with some inherent margin for error (most stats have that anyways*, as long as it isn't biased it's not a massive issue). I do feel it would go a long way to make judging defensive prowess more approachable. Right now you have to be dedicated to finding out if someone is/isn't good defensively. And unless you know how to program/have access to some of these tools. It's a very time consuming process. It's very easy to look at two players and say "Oh they both have 70 def, so they are equal defensively!". Meanwhile on Miami we have a forward and a Dman with (basically) identical def. The forward is -95 the dman is +42 (which just happens to be the meaning of life, the universe and everything). You wouldn't really have guessed that without having access to information that is anything but readily available.

 

I know I just glanced at shots blocked and picked the top guy when asked to predict who I think will be VHL defensive defenseman of the year. Because anything else would simply have required hours upon hours of work to even be able to look at.

 

*The way +/- is tracked IRL and presumably in-game opens up for what I like to refer to as "the douche shift". Where a player gets caught up ice. Knows they have no way in hell of actually making it back in time to affect the play. So they just go change, and dodge the -. They caused the odd man situation that is currently happening, because they got caught up ice. But whoever they change with will take the - from the probable goal, which they had literally nothing to do with. This inherently makes +/- have a massive margin for error. But since it's grandfathered in we're kinda just letting it slide. So would it be the end of the world if we had a similar issues with possession?

Edited December 5, 2021 by Shindigs
Expanded on issue with tracking Takeaways resulting from hits.

[BladeMaiden 1,807]

On 12/4/2021 at 1:59 PM, Shindigs said:

As a new defensive defenseman. Having to manually track possession, as the league doesn't. Isn't exactly helping with the glory.

I agree, and i feel for you

[bigAL 2,176]

On 12/4/2021 at 11:32 PM, Beketov said:

Yes and no. His stuff basically parses the full PbP that STHS analyzes and it looks for key things and then kinda translates them to usable stats. I think in theory we might be able to have those on the portal but I’m not sure as the portal pulls it’s data directly from the database. There’s also a risk that those stats aren’t the most accurate because the PbP may list something in a way that we assume means stat X but it might not actually be. I do suppose this would be even across the league but still.

Paging @Dil, his giveaways and takeaways project was fascinating last season. 

[rjfryman 1,120]

Claiming Week 2

[JardyB10 4,834]

I’m always so excited to hear new voices in podcasts!

 

Y’all are a cute couple of besties. I really like the dynamic between the calm and logical RJ with all his nerd tools and the more bombastic BladeMaiden, who at one point comically felt the need to apologize for saying “fucking.”

 

I’m now glad I opted to take my second first crack at a defenceman, apparently they’re even more unpopular than I realized! And it’s one of the first things I noticed when returning and signing with RJ’s Bulls team.
 

I agree that defence aren’t being helped with their “sexiness” enough. Even something as simple as relative +/- is ignored by most people, even though I think it tells a good two-way story. Yes, everyone on Toronto is going to have a negative rating, but you can still see the defensive effort of a player if they’re maybe a -15 while the rest of their team is -30. Especially if they get lots of minutes.

 

Anyway, great job, please make more, and enter the podcast tournament.  

[rjfryman 1,120]

Claiming Week 3

[rjfryman 1,120]

Claiming Week 4