VHLM TPE Cut Off and Why it's a Problem

[Frank 5,259]

With the introduction of the VHLE, the VHLM now has a 200 TPE cut off at the beginning of the off season. I always understood it as the player being allowed to bank after 200 tpe up to 250 to stay down in the VHLM. This is no longer the case. 

 

Quoted from the VHLM rules:

• Players who have earned 199 TPE or less at the VHLM Cutoff Date during the offseason will be eligible to spend the upcoming season in the VHLM. However, if they pass 200 TPE between the cutoff and the start of the season, they could be called up to play in the VHLE.
• Players may earn past the 200 TPE threshold while they are on a VHLM team, but they can't have more than 199 TPA. Subsequent TPE need to be banked, and will be made available to the players when they graduate from the VHLM.

 

Based on what I have been told by @McWolf  it's the players choice but they need to draw an arbitrary line in the sand at the start of the offseason and it's not even for the reason of stock piling VHLE teams. A player can earn 200 tpe by the cut off and start banking and be required to play in the VHLE even if they would prefer to stay down in the VHLM for another season. That basically takes away their choice either they stop earning or go to the VHLE. The VHLE was introduced so players with lower TPE could be competitive in a league other than the VHL. But the league is full of 300-400 tpe players so a player just above 200 tpe will now be subject to another sub par season in a new league. So now a lot of new players will have a hard time in their first season in the VHLM seasons and continue to be mediocre in their first VHLE season that should surely make them more active, or wait they can stop earning so their player will be good. So they can have likely a couple mediocre seasons and force themselves to stay active or they can stop earning (which is the opposite of being active by the way). 

 

Am I crazy? Or does this rule make zero sense. For the player or the league. If it's the players choice then let new members decide what they would prefer. Should there be a cap after 200 tpe that you can bank before you have to be called up to the VHLE abolishing the cut off date for VHLM players? Or is the current state fine? 

 

The change I'm proposing is to remove the cut off date for VHLM players only and allow them to earn past 200 tpe and bank the rest up to a certain amount. There will be no unfair advantage for these players but it will allow them to have a better second season in the VHLM as opposed to starting at the bottom of the barrel in a new league. Also allowing them to earn as much tpe as they want without the worry of being called up. Most of these players will likely need one season in the VHLE after their second VHLM season, at which point they will stand a better chance of having a successful season. 

 

@rjfryman @Acydburn @diamond_ace  @Beketov

Edited February 12, 2022 by Frank

[Josh 1,672]

Thanks for not tagging me.

 

The actual rules (in the VHL rulebook) are:

 

Spoiler

Spoiler

2.10 - VHLM TPE Eligibility

• Players are eligible to play in the VHLM if they are at or under 200 TPE at the finance cutoff for the current season.
• Once a player has earned 201 TPE, they will no longer be eligible to play in the VHLM, and will automatically be called up to the VHLE, at the start the next season.

AND

 

7.3 - VHLE Call-ups

Any eligible player may request to be moved up from the VHLM to the VHLE during the off-season. Refer to Section 2 for eligibility.

[Frank 5,259]

53 minutes ago, Josh said:

Thanks for not tagging me.

 

The actual rules (in the VHL rulebook) are:

 

  Hide contents

Spoiler

2.10 - VHLM TPE Eligibility

• Players are eligible to play in the VHLM if they are at or under 200 TPE at the finance cutoff for the current season.
• Once a player has earned 201 TPE, they will no longer be eligible to play in the VHLM, and will automatically be called up to the VHLE, at the start the next season.

AND

 

7.3 - VHLE Call-ups

Any eligible player may request to be moved up from the VHLM to the VHLE during the off-season. Refer to Section 2 for eligibility.

Meaning they can still bank after 200 tpe, before the cut off?

[youloser1337 1,117]

1 hour ago, Josh said:

Thanks for not tagging me.

 

The actual rules (in the VHL rulebook) are:

 

  Hide contents

Spoiler

2.10 - VHLM TPE Eligibility

• Players are eligible to play in the VHLM if they are at or under 200 TPE at the finance cutoff for the current season.
• Once a player has earned 201 TPE, they will no longer be eligible to play in the VHLM, and will automatically be called up to the VHLE, at the start the next season.

AND

 

7.3 - VHLE Call-ups

Any eligible player may request to be moved up from the VHLM to the VHLE during the off-season. Refer to Section 2 for eligibility.

Which basically reinforces what @Frank said. Players don't have a choice seen here:

 

1 hour ago, Frank said:

Based on what I have been told by @McWolf  it's the players choice but they need to draw an arbitrary line in the sand at the start of the offseason and it's not even for the reason of stock piling VHLE teams. A player can earn 200 tpe by the cut off and start banking and be required to play in the VHLE even if they would prefer to stay down in the VHLM for another season. That basically takes away their choice either they stop earning or go to the VHLE. The VHLE was introduced so players with lower TPE could be competitive in a league other than the VHL. But the league is full of 300-400 tpe players so a player just above 200 tpe will now be subject to another sub par season in a new league. So now a lot of new players will have a hard time in their first season in the VHLM seasons and continue to be mediocre in their first VHLE season that should surely make them more active, or wait they can stop earning so their player will be good. So they can have likely a couple mediocre seasons and force themselves to stay active or they can stop earning (which is the opposite of being active by the way). 

 

[Enorama 2,039]

11 minutes ago, Frank said:

Meaning they can still bank after 200 tpe, before the cut off?

 

Like if they hit the cap mid-season? Absolutely, they have always been able to continue earning, they just get forced up the following season.

 

 

[Frank 5,259]

1 minute ago, Enorama said:

 

Like if they hit the cap mid-season? Absolutely, they have always been able to continue earning, they just get forced up the following season.

 

 

Which is the problem players should be able to bank past 200 before the cut off. 

[Josh 1,672]

2 minutes ago, Frank said:

Which is the problem players should be able to bank past 200 before the cut off. 

 

No, they shouldn't. We don't need more players in the M.

[youloser1337 1,117]

My honest opinion btw:

I don't think this is a big problem. Maybe have the player make a declaration when they hit 200 TPE, with the default being go up to the VHLE, so inactives don't stay in M forever.

[Frank 5,259]

1 minute ago, Josh said:

 

No, they shouldn't. We don't need more players in the M.

 

@jacobcarson877 looks like it's been decided for you. Because? Reasons.

[Frank 5,259]

5 minutes ago, youloser1337 said:

My honest opinion btw:

I don't think this is a big problem. Maybe have the player make a declaration when they hit 200 TPE, with the default being go up to the VHLE, so inactives don't stay in M forever.

Inactives get released from VHLM teams.

 

Allow the player to chose which league they prefer to play in some want to move on and some prefer to stay and have a great season. 

 

A simple cap of 250 (200 tpe and 50 banked solves that issue) before the cut off. 

Edited February 12, 2022 by Frank

[youloser1337 1,117]

1 minute ago, Frank said:

 

@jacobcarson877 looks like it's been decided for you. Because? Reasons.

 

I think the biggest reason is because nothing from the M is recognized for official stats or HOF stuff. The M is supposed to be a place where you learn about earning and about the sims. Our job is to retain so they move up to the VHLE / VHL. VHLM isn't about winning.

[hedgehog337 3,483]

do like E

 

hard cap at 250, soft cap at 200

[Frank 5,259]

Just now, youloser1337 said:

 

I think the biggest reason is because nothing from the M is recognized for official stats or HOF stuff. The M is supposed to be a place where you learn about earning and about the sims. Our job is to retain so they move up to the VHLE / VHL. VHLM isn't about winning.

The only issue is members lose interest if there players are poor in the sim. Being bottom half in the league two straight seasons in tpe likely means poor performance.

[Josh 1,672]

Just now, hedgehog337 said:

do like E

 

hard cap at 250, soft cap at 200

 

If anything it would be 200/150

[Frank 5,259]

Just now, Josh said:

 

If anything it would be 200/150

But you have draftees higher then that at the VHLM draft. 

[Josh 1,672]

1 minute ago, Frank said:

The only issue is members lose interest if there players are poor in the sim. Being bottom half in the league two straight seasons in tpe likely means poor performance.

 

Having more players at 200 TPA in the VHLM would just make this happen more.

[Frank 5,259]

Just now, Josh said:

 

Having more players at 200 TPA in the VHLM would just make this happen more.

Based on what? I have players on my team currently that want to earn a little over the current cap and stay in the VHLM also that 200 tpa per player value will fluctuate with league activity and strength of drafts/recruitment.

[Beketov 9,102]

5 minutes ago, Frank said:

Based on what? I have players on my team currently that want to earn a little over the current cap and stay in the VHLM also that 200 tpa per player value will fluctuate with league activity and strength of drafts/recruitment.

So let’s say each team has 4 players that would normally go up and 3 of those decide they want to stay down and bank endlessly instead. That’s now a full forward line of max players, great for the team that wants to win but horrible for the new members joining that get buried down the depth chart because players above the cap chose to stay down and dominate instead.

 

The VHLM ultimately is like the CHL and the limit is like the age restriction. It doesn’t matter if you’re drafted or not, you can still play in the CHL so long as you are under 20. However once you turn 20 you are no long eligible to play there because that’s not your level of play anymore. The VHLM is exactly the same thing.

[Frank 5,259]

12 minutes ago, Beketov said:

So let’s say each team has 4 players that would normally go up and 3 of those decide they want to stay down and bank endlessly instead. That’s now a full forward line of max players, great for the team that wants to win but horrible for the new members joining that get buried down the depth chart because players above the cap chose to stay down and dominate instead.

 

The VHLM ultimately is like the CHL and the limit is like the age restriction. It doesn’t matter if you’re drafted or not, you can still play in the CHL so long as you are under 20. However once you turn 20 you are no long eligible to play there because that’s not your level of play anymore. The VHLM is exactly the same thing.

250 is a pretty soft cap. There's been a slight inflation in tpe recently. 220-230 would even be sufficient. Also the gap of 200-400 tpe is greater then the 60-70 tpe a waiver claim has at the start if the season vs a 200 tpe player.

[jacobcarson877 2,563]

chiming in here as one of the players in question. At my current earning rate, I am set to hit 200TPE in 4.7 or 5 weeks. Based on my estimation, the cutoff date will be 6 or 7 weeks out. This means that I am basically going to hit my 200, and move up to the VHLE barely scratching 200. My VHLM team loses me as an asset for the championship run they are hoping to do next season, and I am also going to be at the bottom of the barrel next season. I want to know whether I can slow down my earning just slightly from ~14/week to ~11/week for the next few weeks and actually get the chance to be on a competitive VHLM team next season, that my GM has worked so hard to put together. Personally I don't care at this point, I will have fun in the E or the M. But my poor GM is now looking at losing his top 3 players form a bottom of the barrel team for nothing, all because I earned too fast. There were higher TPE players on the board when I got picked, but I was targeted to be a cornerstone piece for a S83 run.

 

Based on my math here, and forgive me if I'm wrong slightly I'm estimating weeks here. If a brand new player joins the league at 66 TPE and earns as I have getting all 12 Capped TPE and clicking the practice button to get 14 TPE/week (which should be cause for celebration in my books, that's an active member there) by the time they go from cutoff date to cutoff date (what I'm considering 1 full season) they would go through 10-12 weeks (i counted 11 but I might be wrong) they would earn 154TPE putting them at 220TPE overall. Their team would get them for 1 season, and would lose them immediately going into next season. If that player only earned 12TPE/week however, they would reach 198TPE in that first season, and be eligible for a whole second season, at nearly max value. This means that when evaluating players, VHLM GMs now have a genuine incentive to pick lower earning players, regardless of their current TPE in order to build stronger teams. In fact, getting players who just earn welfare and practice (no shame in that I did it most of my last player) is now more valuable by games played at a high level, than a player entering the VHLM draft where I did.

 

That player (like me) who will end S82 just crossing the threshold, are now an entire season of development behind the player who picked the optimal recreate date. I will now go into every league at the bottom of the barrel, not because I earned any less when I was active, but because I wasn't able to bank for the season as they had.

 

 

All of these players are notable names in the community and have planned their players well and I don't want to take any of that from them. I just want to make sure I can join a league when I am competitive, not as quickly as possible. I get that the VHL is the main attraction, and the VHLE needs more players to support the VHL and I agree with that. But players won't stick around if they are forced to be non-competitive for several seasons of their early career until they get to the big leagues.

 

All of this is not to say that I'm going to quit or earn less or contribute less, because as I said, I don't care that much. But I could understand why people would be demoralized the way things are now, and I'd hate to see the VHLM, which in my experience has been my favourite part of my careers, turn into a battle of who sold their players at the deadline for the most picks for next season. They get all of the top players for the season and win, then the next team that had all of the top picks wins the next season. If there's no way to retain talent and actually build teams, there is no reason to have the VHLM at all. If player retention is truly as important as its sounded so far, the most important thing has to be creating competitive leagues at the bottom that drive players to earn and grow every week. There should never be any reason to discourage earning.

 

Obviously at every cutoff TPE should be evaluated and if you are over 200TPE you move up. I think it should be as simple as that. No arbitrary values, no sticking around in the M for 8 seasons. When the cutoff hits, anyone over 200 moves up. But after the cutoff I should be able to earn as I please, and when the next cutoff hits I'm up. I'm confused as to the difference in the VHL and VHLM rulebooks and I hope that it can be rectified quickly, so I know what to do with my player and earnings, and let my GM know whats happening with me.

 

Thanks everyone for tuning in!

[jacobcarson877 2,563]

43 minutes ago, Beketov said:

So let’s say each team has 4 players that would normally go up and 3 of those decide they want to stay down and bank endlessly instead. That’s now a full forward line of max players, great for the team that wants to win but horrible for the new members joining that get buried down the depth chart because players above the cap chose to stay down and dominate instead.

 

The VHLM ultimately is like the CHL and the limit is like the age restriction. It doesn’t matter if you’re drafted or not, you can still play in the CHL so long as you are under 20. However once you turn 20 you are no long eligible to play there because that’s not your level of play anymore. The VHLM is exactly the same thing.

The one thing I'd like to add however is that by sending up a player who won't be competitive in the VHLE, to replace them with a new player you've now created 2 players simming poorly in their respective league instead of 1 simming well and 1 simming poorly. Unless roster spots in the VHLM is a bigger issue than I think it is, in which case ignore this, having those extra players around to be leaders and make teams competitive is more beneficial to new players than simply more playing time.

 

That's why you can't send North American players to the AHL until they're 20, they're simply not competitive enough to play there. You send them to the CHL or whatever or you keep them in the NHL because they're good enough. They don't want kids getting massacred by men until they're developed enough to handle it. I get that it's not a perfect comparison but I think the idea is there.

[Josh 1,672]

35 minutes ago, jacobcarson877 said:

Obviously at every cutoff TPE should be evaluated and if you are over 200TPE you move up. I think it should be as simple as that. No arbitrary values, no sticking around in the M for 8 seasons. When the cutoff hits, anyone over 200 moves up. But after the cutoff I should be able to earn as I please, and when the next cutoff hits I'm up. I'm confused as to the difference in the VHL and VHLM rulebooks and I hope that it can be rectified quickly, so I know what to do with my player and earnings, and let my GM know whats happening with me.

 

This is exactly what it is though, the only time you are ever bumped up is at a cutoff. After the cutoff you are absolutely allowed to earn whatever you want and it won't change what league you are in (between the M and the E that is). If you go above 200 after the cutoff but before the season starts, a player is allowed to call themselves up to the VHLE but it's totally up to the player. A player in the VHLM can earn above 200 TPE during the season and just won't be able to apply it.

 

[jacobcarson877 2,563]

Just now, Josh said:

 

This is exactly what it is though, the only time you are ever bumped up is at a cutoff. After the cutoff you are absolutely allowed to earn whatever you want and it won't change what league you are in (between the M and the E that is). If you go above 200 after the cutoff but before the season starts, a player is allowed to call themselves up to the VHLE but it's totally up to the player. A player in the VHLM can earn above 200 TPE during the season and just won't be able to apply it.

 

Okay that's exactly what I wanted to hear. I'm glad I could read the rules properly the first time, got very confused somewhere afterwards. Thanks for the clear explanation!

[Josh 1,672]

3 hours ago, jacobcarson877 said:

 

Okay that's exactly what I wanted to hear. I'm glad I could read the rules properly the first time, got very confused somewhere afterwards. Thanks for the clear explanation!

 

No problem, I'll make sure the VHLM / VHLE rulebooks are edited to make sure this is clearer and consistent. 

[Enorama 2,039]

4 hours ago, jacobcarson877 said:

That's why you can't send North American players to the AHL until they're 20, they're simply not competitive enough to play there.

 

Just interjecting momentarily to point out that that isn't actually why. The CHL-NHL agreement requires that the NHL send sub-20 year olds back to major junior for the CHL's benefit, i.e.; to get more butts in the seats to watch these skilled kids. As we saw when some of the CHL leagues paused competition due to the pandemic, these players are more than able to terrorize the AHL as well. 

 

In the VHL context, it's just about constantly making sure that players are moving upwards so that new players have a clear path to a top 6-ish placement. As Josh pointed out to you already, you are never forced up mid-season, so if you cap out, you're just helping the team that you're a part of.