roe v wade

[Jack Johnson 124]

21 hours ago, der meister said:

I've been fuming. It's a staggering collapse of democracy when 6 people can make whatever ruling they want regardless of what the American people want. A Republican hasn't won the popular vote for President since 1988 and yet 6 of 9 justices are Republicans, 4 of whom have lied under oath during their bearings about this. This nation is well on it's way to becoming a theocratic police State. I'm ready to burn it down.

Trump had 3 seats open. He promised to fill them. End of story. Say 3 republican justices die. Then Biden could appoint 3 if he wished

[Daniel Janser 2,172]

3 minutes ago, Jack Johnson said:

Pro-Life! Anyways all that is different is that the states decide if abortion is banned or not. Even before some states had restrictions that almost outlawed abortions. Therefore not all that much has changed. States like California, New York, Illinois and Colorado still have completely legal abortions. Now I live in Arizona where they have not decided what to do yet but if someone here wished, they really could get a paid trip to California to get an abortion depending on the employer.

It is funny to observe that a lot of 'pro-life'-ists have no issues whatsoever with the death penalty though

[Jack Johnson 124]

1 minute ago, Daniel Janser said:

It is funny to observe that a lot of 'pro-life'-ists have no issues whatsoever with the death penalty though

Ok. Good attack ngl. So the death penalty is for murderers and abortion is killing an innocent unborn child.

[Daniel Janser 2,172]

2 minutes ago, Jack Johnson said:

Trump had 3 seats open. He promised to fill them. End of story. Say 3 republican justices die. Then Biden could appoint 3 if he wished

This system is thwarted and to me reeks of nepotism... the judges appointed by the president 'owe' him and with such debt (whether only perceived or real) undermines the impartiality a judge (especially the 2nd highest one) should have...

[Jack Johnson 124]

1 minute ago, Daniel Janser said:

This system is thwarted and to me reeks of nepotism... the judges appointed by the president 'owe' him and with such debt (whether only perceived or real) undermines the impartiality a judge (especially the 2nd highest one) should have...

I do agree actually. Judges should be 3rd party appointed and unbiased

[Daniel Janser 2,172]

Just now, Jack Johnson said:

Ok. Good attack ngl. So the death penalty is for murderers and abortion is killing an innocent unborn child.

and yet the murderer as well as the mother are human beings. is it not going against the 'sanctity of life' principle if people are put to death?  

[Jack Johnson 124]

2 minutes ago, Daniel Janser said:

and yet the murderer as well as the mother are human beings. is it not going against the 'sanctity of life' principle if people are put to death?  

I am not saying i support the death penalty. I just think abortion is wrong with the exceptions of rape and incest. Or if it harms the mother's life

Edited June 25, 2022 by Jack Johnson

[samx 1,173]

13 minutes ago, Jack Johnson said:

I am not saying i support the death penalty. I just think abortion is wrong with the exceptions of rape and incest. Or if it harms the mother's life

Who are you or any other person to decide what is right or wrong for what someone does to their body? It doesn't effect you. Don't like it? fine don't get one. But don't stop other people with very valid reasons from getting one.

[JardyB10 4,865]

7 minutes ago, Jack Johnson said:

I am not saying i support the death penalty. I just think abortion is wrong with the exceptions of rape and incest. Or if it harms the mother's life

And the problem with this ruling is that is blanket affects even the rape and incest victims, and perhaps even women who have miscarried as der meister pointed out.

 

Whether you agree with abortion or not, it’s not the State’s right to choose whether individuals can or cannot get them. I don’t like red onions because they’re disgusting and taint everything they touch. That doesn’t mean I would make them illegal if I was a politician though, because I ultimately don’t give a shit who wants to eat onions as distasteful as I find them.

 

 

[JardyB10 4,865]

19 hours ago, Beketov said:

Now that's not saying that fetus' are parasites, that's obviously a stretch

No it isn’t, they are literally the very definition of a parasite. No offence to the human they’ll eventually become, but plenty of creatures suffer to procreate, it just be like that! 
 

As a side anecdotal note, I personally have a difficult time identifying newborns as humans. My nephew was born a month ago, and I still have a tendency to refer to him as “it.” Because when babies are that young they’re barely human, they’re just little weird grubby larval alien creatures. Again, no offence to them or anything, I love the kids. But they’re little alien grubs and I literally can barely register them otherwise!

Edited June 25, 2022 by JardyB10

[der meister 3,197]

33 minutes ago, Jack Johnson said:

Trump had 3 seats open. He promised to fill them. End of story. Say 3 republican justices die. Then Biden could appoint 3 if he wished

 

He had 3 seats open because Mitch McConnell refused to have a hearing for Merrick Garland because it was an election year, but he jammed those Trump justices through the system awfully quick, despite their myriad issues, including credible accusations of sexual assault re: Kavanaugh. So no, I don't think that the current republican party would allow Biden to appoint 3 judges, because they have already proven they have rules for themselves, and separate rules for Democrats. 

[Jack Johnson 124]

3 minutes ago, der meister said:

 

He had 3 seats open because Mitch McConnell refused to have a hearing for Merrick Garland because it was an election year, but he jammed those Trump justices through the system awfully quick, despite their myriad issues, including credible accusations of sexual assault re: Kavanaugh. So no, I don't think that the current republican party would allow Biden to appoint 3 judges, because they have already proven they have rules for themselves, and separate rules for Democrats. 

The Kavanaugh hearings helped nothing. In the end he was found not guilty. Not saying he did not do anything but the courts proved him innocent. Garland is a true story though. I hate McConnell. Too old. Same with Pelosi and Shumer.

[Baozi 1,658]

1 hour ago, Jack Johnson said:

I am not saying i support the death penalty. I just think abortion is wrong with the exceptions of rape and incest. Or if it harms the mother's life

 

Having a child when emotionally and financially ready among other things harms the quality of life both for the mother and the child and also continues the cycle of economic disparity of society. 

 

Among other things its not just a "well they can get an abortion elsewhere", it has a cascading effect as already noted that if the people feel they were "right" on this issue they are going to go after same sex marriage and other social science functions. Or other effects as we've seen where people try to sue the party for abortion from a different state.

 

Its debatable whether abortion is wrong only in the case of homicide in the taking of life from a sentient being but to place that onus on the fetus it would require it to be able to process sensory information so thats 18-25 weeks at the minimum, or in most cases 30 weeks. This part is debtable on how you want to define it of course. So why do you think abortion is wrong? 

 

What ISN'T DEBATABLE, is thinking you get to choose what another person does to their own body that affects their livelihood. Also it brings into question what your actual principles of life are if you're willing to embark on this route.

 

Also who are the people that will complain about the babies needing healthcare? Who pays the adoption systems? Who pays for the therapy of the mother who was raped, who pays for the education of the extra children? You know who complains the most about social services and avoids paying taxes the most? You got it right. Its pro lifers.

Edited June 25, 2022 by Baozi

[der meister 3,197]

20 minutes ago, Jack Johnson said:

The Kavanaugh hearings helped nothing. In the end he was found not guilty. Not saying he did not do anything but the courts proved him innocent. Garland is a true story though. I hate McConnell. Too old. Same with Pelosi and Shumer.

 

Kavanaugh was not found not guilty. The investigation was a dog and pony show. Same as the Anita Hill accusations against Clarence Thomas. 

[Beketov 9,026]

Just for the sake of comparison with the US’ closest neighbor; here is how Canada looks at abortion:

 

 

Yes, that says all stages. Know why? Because as @JardyB10 pointed out it’s far too easy to blanket ban something and inadvertently harm people. So what was the Canadian government’s solution? Make it as available as possible and stay the hell out of it because the government should have no jurisdiction over that.

 

Does this mean people are getting to 36 weeks and deciding “you know what, maybe this parenting thing isn’t for me”…. Not really. They CAN but finding a doctor who will do the procedure at that point as a choice is rare. What it does allow for us a situation where maybe development has stalled at 20 weeks and they don’t find out until 30 that, despite brain function, the pregnancy isn’t viable. It also allows for a situation where a complication threatens both mother and child and makes an emergency C-section impossible.

 

Yes, you could get those things by putting a “medically necessary” clause on it but why put something in that will just lead to arguments about what’s “necessary” and isn’t? That’s not the government’s place to decide. THIS is how a first world country handles abortion laws. Bringing religion into the argument and having governments  involved in deciding what women can and can’t do with their bodies is not how a first world country operates. America has invaded countries for doing the things they are currently doing.

 

A last point: upholding Roe was supported by 70% of Americans. While that number SHOULD be higher the fact remains it’s still a vast majority. That means that a group of 9 people just decided to ignore the will of the vast majority of Americans.

[der meister 3,197]

The really interesting thing to me is that Evangelicals didn't really give a shit about abortion until the 80s with the 700 Club and people like Pat Robertson. Read up on Tim LaHaye and the Center for National Policy. In 2020, a partial list of members of the CNP leaked - among those, Steve Bannon, Betsy Devos' mother, Eric Prince's father, Kellyanne Conway...

 

There's been a radical extreme branch of Christianity that became hyperpoliticized and have infiltrated the Republican party, to the point where they're running it. 

[Frank 5,212]

Easily accessible assault rifles in the country with the largest number of school shootings. Gun reform? Nah. Clearly abortion is the issue. 

[Nykonax 1,564]

2 hours ago, Baozi said:

What ISN'T DEBATABLE, is thinking you get to choose what another person does to their own body that affects their livelihood.

 

3 hours ago, samx said:

Who are you or any other person to decide what is right or wrong for what someone does to their body? It doesn't effect you. Don't like it? fine don't get one. But don't stop other people with very valid reasons from getting one.

this is off topic but couldnt these arguments be used against vaccine mandates too. 

 

I guess the argument would be that not getting vaccinated puts others at risk so therefore your choice just isnt affecting you. But from a pro-life prospective they fundamentally see a fetus as a human from conception, so by having an abortion it isnt just affecting you, its affecting the human inside of you too. Ive also heard arguments that abortion affects family around you but I think thats kind of dumb

[samx 1,173]

6 minutes ago, Nykonax said:

 

this is off topic but couldnt these arguments be used against vaccine mandates too. 

 

I guess the argument would be that not getting vaccinated puts others at risk so therefore your choice just isnt affecting you. But from a pro-life prospective they fundamentally see a fetus as a human from conception, so by having an abortion it isnt just affecting you, its affecting the human inside of you too. Ive also heard arguments that abortion affects family around you but I think thats kind of dumb

I mean why are we forcing pro life beliefs on an entire country? Majority of people who are "pro-life" are "pro-life" for religious reasons. The united states is a place where you are supposed to be able to practice any religion and all these people are doing are pushing a so called religious beliefs onto other people. 

 

 

They aren't pro life they are pro having power over other people. They are pro life until that baby is born and the mother doesn't get paid leave, or until that baby is sick and the mother has to decide weather to put food on the table for herself or pay for the bills and medication, they are pro life until that child is in school in a lockdown and instead of going into help children are dying for an hour, they are pro life until that is a person of any minority. They aren't pro life they are people in power who decided they also want to control millions of other people's bodies.

 

 

Being pro choice isn't pro kill fetus. It's letting other people decide weather they can/want to carry a baby for 9 months and then care for it for at least 18 years.

Edited June 25, 2022 by samx

[Daniel Janser 2,172]

17 minutes ago, samx said:

I mean why are we forcing pro life beliefs on an entire country? Majority of people who are "pro-life" are "pro-life" for religious reasons. The united states is a place where you are supposed to be able to practice any religion and all these people are doing are pushing a so called religious beliefs onto other people. 

 

 

They aren't pro life they are pro having power over other people. They are pro life until that baby is born and the mother doesn't get paid leave, or until that baby is sick and the mother has to decide weather to put food on the table for herself or pay for the bills and medication, they are pro life until that child is in school in a lockdown and instead of going into help children are dying for an hour, they are pro life until that is a person of any minority. They aren't pro life they are people in power who decided they also want to control millions of other people's bodies.

 

 

Being pro choice isn't pro kill fetus. It's letting other people decide weather they can/want to carry a baby for 9 months and then care for it for at least 18 years.

This reminds me of a skit by the late George Carlin

 

here is a link to it: 

 

[KaleebtheMighty 1,509]

I’ll pop in here to give an example of an abortion, and why deeming it wrong completely is wrong in and of itself.

 

My wife and I lost a baby in term at 17 weeks. It was absolutely gut wrenching for us both, and spun us into an awful mental spiral. When we received that news, it was the hardest I ever cried in my life.

 

At that point, we had only two options with how to proceed. The first option was a D&C. For those of you who are unaware of what that is, the doctor opens up the cervix of a woman with a tool and then either uses suction or a scraping tool to remove the fetus from the womb. It can be extremely painful. While the option of sedation is used, having to put a woman through that pain and trauma just after being told her baby died is unthinkable. It is soul crushing, pure and simple.

 

Our other option was to induce labor with a drug to deliver my son, so that we could have a chance to see him before we had to let him go. No tools would be used to remove him in pieces. And afterwards, when he would arrive, we could hold him and tell him how much we love him, even though we would only get one chance to see him. 
 

We chose the second option. And in that dark and stormy time in our lives, I got to hold my son, tiny and frail as he was. But you know what? He came out and had the best smile on his face, even though he had passed. I got to hold him close and tell him how much I loved him. And I will never forget, even in the moments of tears and weeping between my wife and I, the special moments we had with our son before we had to let him go.

 

That second option was an abortion. We had to have an abortion to be able to see my son. And because it was an abortion, our insurance didn’t want to cover it. So we had to pay that bill completely, which here in the US, was a big bill. Each month, we had to be reminded of what we went through until it was paid off.

 

And now it’s illegal where I live. While most people think of the simple cases where this can affect them. Now women and families where it’s illegal don’t have the option like we did to see their child in a similar situation.

 

That realization to me is just as soul crushing as that night was for me. There shouldn’t be a blanket ruling that makes all abortions illegal, it is inhumane.

[Jack Johnson 124]

34 minutes ago, KaleebtheMighty said:

 

My wife and I lost a baby in term at 17 weeks. It was absolutely gut wrenching for us both, and spun us into an awful mental spiral. When we received that news, it was the hardest I ever cried in my life.

R.I.P  May your baby live peacefully in Heaven.

[Baozi 1,658]

2 hours ago, Nykonax said:

 

this is off topic but couldnt these arguments be used against vaccine mandates too. 

 

I guess the argument would be that not getting vaccinated puts others at risk so therefore your choice just isnt affecting you. But from a pro-life prospective they fundamentally see a fetus as a human from conception, so by having an abortion it isnt just affecting you, its affecting the human inside of you too. Ive also heard arguments that abortion affects family around you but I think thats kind of dumb

 

Vaccines do affect those around you as well so thats not just an individual well being imo. Its more like a social responsibility to help eradicate and reduce spread of infectious disease so those more vulnerable are not endangered by it. Not having a vaccine scientifically endangers other people's lives vs giving someone the choice is not guaranteed effect to endanger others.

 

From a pro-life issue of fetus = life, which of course unless they are vegan mean they take life anyways somewhere so its already moot point if thats the line they want to draw. The argument being a fetus is sentient or self aware is also a major focal point and the pro life crowd is scientifically wrong here anyways given gestation periods and safe time of abortion.

[Baozi 1,658]

1 hour ago, Jack Johnson said:

R.I.P  May your baby live peacefully in Heaven.

 

 We dont need crocodile tears here.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Baozi

[Jack Johnson 124]

1 hour ago, Baozi said:

 

 We dont need crocodile tears here.

I actually offer my condolences. It is a horrible thing. No matter what.