roe v wade

[fishy 1,755]

hi vhl,

 

i really want to talk about the overturning of roe v wade and gen chat is not the place for it. so here i am

 

roe v wade was a case that legalized the right to abortion in the united states. the supreme court has overturned this ruling, which means that states are now allowed to ban abortions

 

i ... don't even know how to describe what i'm feeling. i'm angry and really, really scared. the ruling effectively said that they're going to try to go after other rulings of similar import (e.g., legalizing same-sex marriages and relationships, contraceptives, etc.).

 

as a queer person with a uterus it's so scary to watch as the people who are supposed to protecting me are actively stripping me of rights right now, and people are.. happy about it? i'm 23 years old, and i feel like there's no hope for me to gain any rights in this country, let alone even maintain them. it's horrifying

 

i saw the ruling this morning and i had no idea what to do with myself. i can't call my parents, who are both anti-abortion and certainly not avid supporters same-sex marriages and relationships or contraceptives. my friends are at work, my partner on vacation, and i just felt so trapped. it's terrible

 

so yeah, i'm opening up this space for other people to be pissed and scared

[CowboyinAmerica 2,709]

My wife's a pediatrician who also does a lot of public health work in maternal and child health. And being in Minneapolis, she gets a lot of people from the Dakotas in particular because healthcare protection for women's and reproductive health there has already been stripped to the bone. This ruling will ratchet that up to 11. And for many people who can't easily drive 4 hours just to see a doctor who can legally see you, especially the heavy indigenous population out there, they're absolutely fucked. It's an instant public health crisis for absolutely no good reason (or less charitably, shitty fringe evangelical reasons), in the middle of a completely separate ongoing pandemic.

 

Realize: Today's ruling won't prevent abortions. Today's ruling will prevent safe abortions, where people can see actual doctors and learn the options that are best for them. All the Supreme Court is doing is limiting help that can be given to people who really need it in the most vulnerable times of their lives.

 

I'm glad you were able to get out being pissed and scared, being pissed and scared right now is we should be. But I do take some comfort in seeing just how many people realize this is bullshit.

 

(North Dakota's only abortion provider in Fargo had already made moves to set up shop across state lines in Minnesota in anticipation, but they haven't completed the move yet. If anyone wants to help, here's their Twitter with more info.)

[Arce 742]

26 minutes ago, fishy said:

hi vhl,

 

i really want to talk about the overturning of roe v wade and gen chat is not the place for it. so here i am

 

roe v wade was a case that legalized the right to abortion in the united states. the supreme court has overturned this ruling, which means that states are now allowed to ban abortions

 

i ... don't even know how to describe what i'm feeling. i'm angry and really, really scared. the ruling effectively said that they're going to try to go after other rulings of similar import (e.g., legalizing same-sex marriages and relationships, contraceptives, etc.).

 

as a queer person with a uterus it's so scary to watch as the people who are supposed to protecting me are actively stripping me of rights right now, and people are.. happy about it? i'm 23 years old, and i feel like there's no hope for me to gain any rights in this country, let alone even maintain them. it's horrifying

 

i saw the ruling this morning and i had no idea what to do with myself. i can't call my parents, who are both anti-abortion and certainly not avid supporters same-sex marriages and relationships or contraceptives. my friends are at work, my partner on vacation, and i just felt so trapped. it's terrible

 

so yeah, i'm opening up this space for other people to be pissed and scared

 

I am so sorry you, and anyone else who will be impacted by this has to go through this. I myself am very angry, and I have been since they leaked this a few weeks ago. This is not progress, this is what you call regression. I have always looked at it as even if you personally would not get an abortion, why would you not support someone's right to if they need it? It is not impacting your life in the slightest. I fear for my daughter's future and what she may have to grow up in. I feel so deeply for my wife. Even though we are in the Northeast and our states will still allow abortions, it gives no peace of mind. I can't believe we are still in 2022 and still fighting social issues like this. An old, backwards way of thinking is what this is. I do not understand how these people do not understand this doesn't stop abortion, it makes them more dangerous and makes people more desperate. If you, or anyone here is in need to talk, my DMs are always open. You are not alone, and many feel the same way you do fishy and rightfully so.

[Enorama 1,980]

 

[Daniel Janser 1,982]

I was surprised that the supreme court felt the need to overturn their own previous decision. It just does not make sense to me. I like the regulations we have in Switzerland where abortions are legal (and covered by your health insurance which in Switzerland is mandatory to have) until the 12th week with prior consultation of a doctor. It is possible to abort after the 13th week but then there need to be medical reasons (danger for the pregnant woman if she keeps the child (physically or mentally) or if the child would be disabled or suffering under irreversible, severe conditions).

I think that is a fair approach, but of course I do not have a uterus and hence my perception is of limited relevance.

All that the SCOTUS did with its decision is to give rise to shadow clinics and to criminalize women who are already in despair and/or medical personnel trying to help such women. If they thought they are preventing any abortion they are mistaken. They will just deny women the access to safe, hygienic abortions. I could imagine that desperate pregnant women will resort to pre-1973 methods to get control over their body and the prices of wire coat hangers will increase (sorry for the black humour, this is my way to deal with this bullshit, if I gave anyone offence with this statement, I sincerely do apologize, this was not my intention).

I understand your frustration that some old farts (who are well-to-do) decide what a woman faced with an unplanned pregnancy can or cannot do with her own body (six of them being men any way). My personal opinion is, that one can do with their body what they please, as long as it does not hurt me.

Again, in Switzerland the regulation is good imo as the public does not have to pay for the abortion. Which rules out the argument 'Why should I pay for the consequences of someone else's sex life?', i.e. if the public has not to pay for it, they cannot reasonably argue that it should not be allowed.

If you want to vent your anger, I am happy to 'listen' to your justified ranting via DM. 

[jRuutu 2,303]

Very American to get upset about not being able to kill babies. 

 

[Baozi 1,635]

7 minutes ago, jRuutu said:

Very American to get upset about not being able to kill babies. 

 

 

Your mom was pretty upset as I understand it.

[der meister 2,910]

I've been fuming. It's a staggering collapse of democracy when 6 people can make whatever ruling they want regardless of what the American people want. A Republican hasn't won the popular vote for President since 1988 and yet 6 of 9 justices are Republicans, 4 of whom have lied under oath during their bearings about this. This nation is well on it's way to becoming a theocratic police State. I'm ready to burn it down.

[Baozi 1,635]

5 minutes ago, der meister said:

I've been fuming. It's a staggering collapse of democracy when 6 people can make whatever ruling they want regardless of what the American people want. A Republican hasn't won the popular vote for President since 1988 and yet 6 of 9 justices are Republicans, 4 of whom have lied under oath during their bearings about this. This nation is well on it's way to becoming a theocratic police State. I'm ready to burn it down.

 

Honestly short of an actual war the two sides have just been getting farther and farther apart that no real change feels enough get them to meet in the middle.

[fishy 1,755]

the right to an abortion is a human right, not just a woman's right

[ShawnGlade 1,002]

we just a bunch of meat sticks floating on a rock in space

[Ricer13 2,592]

At some point people are going to have had enough. It’s only a matter of time.

[Tyler 881]

1 hour ago, jRuutu said:

Very American to get upset about not being able to kill babies. 

 

 

I hate Americans as much as the next person but the people banning abortions (and those who did nothing to stop them) are the ones who do the foreign baby killing not poor women who get the vast majority of abortions lol. 

 

 

[der meister 2,910]

1 hour ago, Baozi said:

 

Honestly short of an actual war the two sides have just been getting farther and farther apart that no real change feels enough get them to meet in the middle.

 

Then give these fuckers their own country and let them go all ChristoTaliban on themselves.

 

A list of relevant facts:

- The majority of people do not want this. Some polls have that number as high as 80%.

- The UN says that forced birth is a violation of human rights.

- This SCOTUS will make gay marriage illegal if given the opportunity. They will also make interracial relationships illegal, despite Clarence Thomas and his Karen-ass insurrectionist wife. They will also make birth control illegal.

- There are no checks on the SC. They can essentially be a gang of dictators. The only real check is if the House chooses to investigate and impeach for purjury, which at least 4 of the 6 who voted to overturn committed. The investigation should take no more than 10 seconds. All this shit was done in public and recorded. 

[Beketov 8,642]

2 hours ago, jRuutu said:

Very American to get upset about not being able to kill babies. 

 

A fetus is not a baby. It is unable to survive outside the womb before at least 22 weeks and even at that point it's incredibly unlikely it will survive. An organism that requires a host is not a baby, it's a parasite.

 

Now that's not saying that fetus' are parasites, that's obviously a stretch, but it's no more of a stretch than saying they are babies. They cannot survive at that stage and frankly do not deserve extra protection to do so especially in situations where they were not wanted or are not viable. Making it out that arguing for women's rights = arguing for murder doesn't help anything.

[Daniel Janser 1,982]

1 hour ago, der meister said:

- There are no checks on the SC. They can essentially be a gang of dictators. The only real check is if the House chooses to investigate and impeach for purjury, which at least 4 of the 6 who voted to overturn committed. The investigation should take no more than 10 seconds. All this shit was done in public and recorded. 

not doubting your statement, but would you care to explain an impartial individual (me) what they said to be guilty of perjury?

 

Also stuff the SCOTUS passed:

-cops may lie to you in order to bait you into admission of guilt

-cops are not obliged to care about your safety (best demonstrated in the Texan school shooting, where cops did NOTHING for 45 minutes)

-cops are not required to know the laws (the rational is that no-one can possibly know all the laws), while for citizen the rule 'ignorance of the law is no excuse' does apply...

Edited June 25, 2022 by Daniel Janser

[der meister 2,910]

2 minutes ago, Daniel Janser said:

not doubting your statement, but would you care to explain an impartial individual (me) what they said to be guilty of perjury?

 

Sure.

[v.2 1,260]

6 hours ago, jRuutu said:

Very American to get upset about not being able to kill babies. 

 

damn this the first ice cold take I've seen from you

[Lefty_S 91]

7 hours ago, Baozi said:

 

Honestly short of an actual war the two sides have just been getting farther and farther apart that no real change feels enough get them to meet in the middle.

tbh when one side wants to remove human rights there really can't be a middle ground

[Doomsday 4,036]

Personally, I don't like abortion, especially when it is used as a form of birth control. That being said, it is absolutely none of my business what other people decide to do.

 

Imagine needing a kidney transplant, but being told that you're not allowed to get one, so you get to die instead. This is something some women will now face in their home state, and that is horrifying. 

 

It's sad that people feel the need to control what others do, simply because they don't like it or agree with it. Simply letting others live means something like this would have never happened. 

[Beketov 8,642]

8 hours ago, der meister said:

 

Sure.

Gee, I wonder what these 4 people have in common. Couldn’t be that Republicans put them all in…

[Nykonax 1,550]

9 hours ago, der meister said:

is any of this actually perjury though? I'm not an expert on this, but none of this seems like lying under oath. Obviously the only context I have is the quotes given but all of these are true. Top left Roe vs. Wade was important precedent. Top right is just the person saying that currently it is law and he accepts the law. Bottom left is similar to top left, it was settled as precedent. Bottom right Roe vs. Wade did hold that the constitution protected abortion rights.

 

I don't have context for the questions that led to these answers, but all of it is true, and isn't them saying they wouldn't vote to overturn it, just them saying that it exists as precedent and that they'll follow the law. Guess you could argue about the use of "settled", but even then couldn't the justices just say they changed their minds and they did believe what they said at the time?

 

Also note I'm not in the position of defending the SC ruling, I think it's disgusting, I'm just not sure this can be called perjury or not.

Edited June 25, 2022 by Nykonax

[der meister 2,910]

2 hours ago, Nykonax said:

is any of this actually perjury though? I'm not an expert on this, but none of this seems like lying under oath. Obviously the only context I have is the quotes given but all of these are true. Top left Roe vs. Wade was important precedent. Top right is just the person saying that currently it is law and he accepts the law. Bottom left is similar to top left, it was settled as precedent. Bottom right Roe vs. Wade did hold that the constitution protected abortion rights.

 

I don't have context for the questions that led to these answers, but all of it is true, and isn't them saying they wouldn't vote to overturn it, just them saying that it exists as precedent and that they'll follow the law. Guess you could argue about the use of "settled", but even then couldn't the justices just say they changed their minds and they did believe what they said at the time?

 

Also note I'm not in the position of defending the SC ruling, I think it's disgusting, I'm just not sure this can be called perjury or not.

 

It was these comments that "convinced" people like Susan Collins that Roe was safe. Both she and Joe Manchin are on the record yesterday saying that they feel lied to based on the responses they received in the hearings.

 

In legalese, "settled law" means it is cemented in place. Similarly with "there's a precedent". If that weren't the case, things like the Nuremberg Trials and Brown v. Board wouldn't really matter, but they are the precedent for similar cases. As was Roe.

 

Editing to add a lovely graphic from the NYT today:

Edited June 25, 2022 by der meister

[der meister 2,910]

2 hours ago, Doomsday said:

Personally, I don't like abortion, especially when it is used as a form of birth control. That being said, it is absolutely none of my business what other people decide to do.

 

Imagine needing a kidney transplant, but being told that you're not allowed to get one, so you get to die instead. This is something some women will now face in their home state, and that is horrifying. 

 

It's sad that people feel the need to control what others do, simply because they don't like it or agree with it. Simply letting others live means something like this would have never happened. 

 

Abortion is a much, much bigger thing than that, though. For example, 20% of pregnancies end with miscarriage. When a miscarriage happens, and the woman has a dead clump of cells in the womb, the prescribed method is called a dilation and curettage, or D&C. It's an incredibly uncomfortable process physically, for a woman who is already almost certainly in a lot of mental pain. D&C is medically classified as an abortion. Under this new, absurd ruling, states can decide that a D&C is a form of homicide - and there are states already doing that - which means a woman who miscarries could end up in prison. 

 

[Jack Johnson 124]

Pro-Life! Anyways all that is different is that the states decide if abortion is banned or not. Even before some states had restrictions that almost outlawed abortions. Therefore not all that much has changed. States like California, New York, Illinois and Colorado still have completely legal abortions. Now I live in Arizona where they have not decided what to do yet but if someone here wished, they really could get a paid trip to California to get an abortion depending on the employer.