S54: Update Scale Changes

[Devise 4,475]

9 minutes ago, Streetlite said:

Tbh anyone who thinks this change is beneficial for the upper echelon of players is wrong.

 

Fyi.

 

 

It makes it harder for the elite to become elite, while everyone with attributes under 90 remain largely uneffected. I'm probably actually wrong, but without putting much thought into it, that's what it seems like to me.

 

Now it could be just how I see it, but from my viewpoint this makes it so the elite are the only ones who get to be elite. As opposed to what is now, where depending on how people build their players @stevo you mentioned none of your players having 99, keep in mind that is how you build. It's 116 TPE under the old system to get to 99. That isn't that much TPE.

 

I really feel like people underestimate how many useless attributes skaters have. Or if not useless, less useful. I'll say it again, Skating, Scoring, passing, defense, are THE attributes. They mean so much more than the others by such a big margin. Leadership, penalty shot, hell Faceoff is only useful to a select amount of players. This change should make people think about where they spend their TPE and how. Which is a good thing imo. 

Edited February 23, 2017 by Devise

[boubabi 4,725]

Adios karnage's 99 everywhere possibility

 

But still i enjoy that news

[scoop 3,432]

3 minutes ago, Devise said:

 

Now it could be just how I see it, but from my viewpoint this makes it so the elite are the only ones who get to be elite. As opposed to what is now, where depending on how people build their players @stevo you mentioned none of your players having 99, keep in mind that is how you build. It's 116 TPE under the old system to get to 99. That isn't that much TPE.

 

I really feel like people underestimate how many useless attributes skaters have. Or if not useless, less useful. I'll say it again, Skating, Scoring, passing, defense, are THE attributes. They mean so much more than the others by such a big margin. Leadership, penalty shot, hell Faceoff is only useful to a select amount of players. This change should make people think about where they spend their TPE and how. Which is a good thing imo. 

Puck handling >>>

 

 

 

(just fyi)

[stevo 792]

3 minutes ago, Devise said:

Now it could be just how I see it, but from my viewpoint this makes it so the elite are the only ones who get to be elite. As opposed to what is now, where depending on how people build their players @stevo you mentioned none of your players having 99, keep in mind that is how you build. It's 116 TPE under the old system to get to 99. That isn't that much TPE.

I had defense at like 99, but you implied that welfare claimers had numerous 99's or 90+ attributes which certainly isn't true.

[Devise 4,475]

3 minutes ago, stevo said:

I had defense at like 99, but you implied that welfare claimers had numerous 99's or 90+ attributes which certainly isn't true.

 

But it is true. If I decided to under the old system with 348 TPE my player could have 99 defense, 99 scoring, and 99 skating. Sure everything else is 40. But watch that player do good in the sim. He will. The decision to not take all those other attributes to the high 90's is on the player, especially in your case. You decided to build your player that way, and that is fine. And if anything this new system helps people in your position because you aren't mainlining stats to 99. So you'll have more stats that aren't at all affected by this change. 

Edited February 23, 2017 by Devise

[Higgins 3,618]

16 minutes ago, Streetlite said:

Tbh anyone who thinks this change is beneficial for the upper echelon of players is wrong.

 

Fyi.

 

 

It makes it harder for the elite to become elite, while everyone with attributes under 90 remain largely uneffected. I'm probably actually wrong, but without putting much thought into it, that's what it seems like to me.

 

I agree. Also a big change here to benefit younger players is that the TPE whores once they reach their 6th, 7th and 8th seasons with depreciation will be hit a lot harder in pure TPE value. They won't be able to instantly replace their 99 attributes with banked TPE from the season anymore.

[Devise 4,475]

4 minutes ago, Streetlite said:

Puck handling >>>

 

 

 

(just fyi)

 

I mean if we really wanted to get deep into it.

 

A player 99 scoring and everything else in 40's probably does better in the sim than a player with 99 puck handling and 40's in everything else. But that is looking at it from a base 99. I'm not saying other attributes don't matter at all, just the basis to pretty much every good player built in the VHL has one of the 4 attributes I mentioned, if not at least two, at 99. (Skating, Scoring, Pasisng, Defense) 

[Devise 4,475]

1 minute ago, Higgins said:

 

I agree. Also a big change here to benefit younger players is that the TPE whores once they reach their 6th, 7th and 8th seasons with depreciation will be hit a lot harder in pure TPE value. They won't be able to instantly replace their 99 attributes with banked TPE from the season anymore.

 

That is a solid point as well. It's almost as if we are saying, here TPE whores...now as you hit your primes the gap between you and the other players will be a bit bigger, but as punishment depreciation is harder, so maintaining the elite attributes isn't as easy as it used to be. That benefits them when they are in their prime but harms them when they aren't. As balanced as it gets imo. 

[stevo 792]

7 minutes ago, Devise said:

 

But it is true. If I decided to under the old system with 348 TPE my player could have 99 defense, 99 scoring, and 99 skating. Sure everything else is 40. But watch that player do good in the sim. He will. The decision to not take all those other attributes to the high 90's is on the player, especially in your case. You decided to build your player that way, and that is fine. And if anything this new system helps people in your position because you aren't mainlining stats to 99. So you'll have more stats that aren't at all affected by this change. 

Well I was told I need to go all around with a dman, but fuck it anyway. With my next guy I won't give a fuck about anything

 

Speaking of which, when is the trading deadline so I can finally recreate?

[Will 4,660]

3 minutes ago, stevo said:

Well I was told I need to go all around with a dman, but fuck it anyway. With my next guy I won't give a fuck about anything

 

Speaking of which, when is the trading deadline so I can finally recreate?

 

Should be about a week or so

 

maybe a lil less

[scoop 3,432]

15 minutes ago, Devise said:

 

I mean if we really wanted to get deep into it.

 

A player 99 scoring and everything else in 40's probably does better in the sim than a player with 99 puck handling and 40's in everything else.

I actually doubt that tbh.

 

Though I guess if the metric is "who has more goals," then sure, the guy with 99 in Scoring might do better.

[scoop 3,432]

16 minutes ago, Devise said:

 

That is a solid point as well. It's almost as if we are saying, here TPE whores...now as you hit your primes the gap between you and the other players will be a bit bigger, but as punishment depreciation is harder, so maintaining the elite attributes isn't as easy as it used to be. That benefits them when they are in their prime but harms them when they aren't. As balanced as it gets imo. 

The gap won't be bigger because the TPE whores hit 90 first, and they have to start working beyond that. It takes them longer to power through the 90's while the non-TPE whores are working on other attributes because exceeding 90 isn't worth it when they have other stuff to work on.

[Devise 4,475]

Just now, Streetlite said:

I actually doubt that tbh.

 

Though I guess if the metric is "who has more goals," then sure, the guy with 99 in Scoring might do better.

 

I mean the guy with 99 PH probably has Logan Laich bad seasons. Although we could easily get @Will to test that argument. Throw each player on the same team run a season sim test and see who has more points.

 

[scoop 3,432]

Just now, Devise said:

 

I mean the guy with 99 PH probably has Logan Laich bad seasons. Although we could easily get @Will to test that argument. Throw each player on the same team run a season sim test and see who has more points.

 

"Points are the end all be all"

 

-The VHL

[Devise 4,475]

Just now, Streetlite said:

The gap won't be bigger because the TPE whores hit 90 first, and they have to start working beyond that. It takes them longer to power through the 90's while the non-TPE whores are working on other attributes because exceeding 90 isn't worth it when they have other stuff to work on.

 

You'll do better with more stats above 90 than those stuck below it. 

[Devise 4,475]

2 minutes ago, Streetlite said:

"Points are the end all be all"

 

-The VHL

 

Umm in terms of people retiring and retention? Yeah? Most people build players to be good. More often than not because of our sim we recognize points above all. Some like to win cups too but generally people like to win awards and have good statistical seasons.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Devise

[scoop 3,432]

Just now, Devise said:

 

You'll do better with more stats above 90 than those stuck below it. 

Theoretically, yes.

 

Looking at a different comparison, let's talk older TPE whore vs younger TPE whore. Hoarding cheap 2nd/3rd year players has been proving to be a bit of an overpowered strategy, and this will only enhance that. 5th/6th season players will suffer more now relative to before because they are working through the elevated update scale while the young players still have several attributes they can work up to 90, hardly feeling the effects of the new scale. Yes, the older players should theoretically put up better stats, but the gap will be smaller than before.

[scoop 3,432]

2 minutes ago, Devise said:

 

Umm in terms of people retiring and retention? Yeah? Most people build players to be good. More often than not because of our sim we recognize points above all. Some like to win cups too but generally people like to win awards and have good statistical seasons.

I'm just saying Scoring is an offensive attribute through and through. Puck Handling is more useful all around. So yeah, the guy with the Scoring will likely get more points, but it doesn't mean he's better.

[STZ 5,360]

I love the outcry.. This literally affects everyone exactly the same.

 

I likey.. I think.. Let me reserve the right to bitch next season..

[Devise 4,475]

8 minutes ago, Streetlite said:

I'm just saying Scoring is an offensive attribute through and through. Puck Handling is more useful all around. So yeah, the guy with the Scoring will likely get more points, but it doesn't mean he's better.

 

I probably shouldn't have used the word "better" because it implies that I'm saying more than I'm saying. I meant, will more than likely have more points. And while I agree with you that other attributes still do matter, there is no denying that the four attributes I mentioned are key to any successful VHL player regardless of how you build. 

 

I feel like your argument is that a player with high puck handling and high scoring is a more effective player in the sim than a player with just high scoring. To that I say yes, of course. Stats like Puck Handling and Strength act as very good supplement stats to the stats I mentioned. Meaning that of course your defensive play will be better if you have high defense and high puck handling, as will your offensive play. It supplements both. However I still don't think it changes the fact that in order to see statistical success in the league at least two of scoring, passing, skating, and defense are high. I also think you could lump skating up there as well as the majority of the time ALL VHL players pretty much require a decent amount of points in skating. 

 

Obviously then you start factoring in things like Checking and Faceoffs which as utility attributes are useful depending on how you choose to build your player. In terms of whats better, as in what wins games and what GM's need and want on teams. Of course that is all relative to team need, make up, chemistry. But from a pure base standpoint what we are looking at here is how statistically successful players are in the sim, versus players with oft times higher TPE counts than them. And while sometimes I believe you can say ah this was just an outlier, or that was an outlier, I feel we've had far more trends of players with lower TPE who spend more time min maxing (not always, but a bit more) just due to how easy it is and because of that they end up having seasons similar in stats or sometimes better than players who easily have out earned them. 

 

To your point about the 3rd/4th season players having a easier time getting more attributes in the 80's, but still not having as good of a statistical season as say the high TPE earners. Obviously that is going to change based on the specific member. But it's going to get them to start thinking about spending points on other things than just mainling stats due to the value, and I feel like that is how it should be. As it was, we the players you were talking about had the opportunity to be right next to in some cases the elite players in terms of certain attributes, and provided the team make up worked well enough for that build players with sub 500 (even less in some cases) end up statistically doing way better. That isn't encouraging to members to stick around. I mean you yourself are a good example of that, as Maxwell and Ravenwing despite having TPE edges over a lot of players struggled on rebuilding teams. Yet then you have players even semi active or inactive ones over on other teams dominating. If that wasn't you and Der, let's say that was two entirely new players. What are the odds they stick around when they put in all that work and have their players mercilessly struggle and they have to watch players who do less get more? Obviously that situation may still present itself in this system, but based on how things should shake out it ideally will be less likely to occur. 

[scoop 3,432]

2 minutes ago, Devise said:

 

I probably shouldn't have used the word "better" because it implies that I'm saying more than I'm saying. I meant, will more than likely have more points. And while I agree with you that other attributes still do matter, there is no denying that the four attributes I mentioned are key to any successful VHL player regardless of how you build. 

 

I feel like your argument is that a player with high puck handling and high scoring is a more effective player in the sim than a player with just high scoring.

This is as far as I read.

[Kendrick 4,741]

1 hour ago, tfong said:

 

But you can't compare me as the standard welfare player. I've spent max donations, I do PTs through my draft years and early into my career usually and I participate in all the events pretty much. Like on XXX I don't remember where I stopped and went permanently on welfare (I'm going to hazard a guess around 300-400) but even then I did doubles weeks I did special events and such and I'm pretty active on the site.

 

I mean coming from both sides of the coin, my players are definitely not at the same quality as when I had Kanou which was arguably my most active player ever. So I don't think its actually "as good of a chance" of creating a good player as you would think.

 

Looking at the situation, I'm almost like a P2W player really.

 

But see the mere fact that if we didn't have any of those extras, that a welfare person could make 1 TPE less than someone doing a PT is a bit of a problem. The max anyone should earn from welfare per week is 4 TPE and thats a fact, because anything more is just rewarding laziness.

[boubabi 4,725]

[Kendrick 4,741]

1 hour ago, Scooter said:

It did not read that way to me, my argument is mostly done then. I just need to donate 160$ to be equal to an past active guy that didn't donate

Not entirely true at all. See your player has almost caught up to Markus King (a 2nd player of mine with no carryover TPE, no donations and the same 30 TPE you had) and he was created a month before you. That right there shows you that even with your donations, that you aren't someone who will suffer from this change nor will you struggle to create a player who is a VHL 1st liner.

[Kendrick 4,741]

1 hour ago, tfong said:

 

Honestly, I think its just the direction of the league. In my mind its actually really simple to get this back down to the original PT league. TPE inflation is a very real thing when we looked at S1-7 to now. The solution could be to just going back to having virtually no free TPE anywhere and just get your 6+1 a week from PTs and an extra +1 for staff jobs. Then your top earners are around 600 and few if anyone has max stats anywhere across the board.

Jobs were never 1 TPE a week and VHL Fan's were still a thing. You must have forgotten.