Increase PT pay

[Da Trifecta 1,899]

TBH it should be like 7. I mean it should be slightly higher than welfare. If you actually take the time to do it, you should be rewarded.

[Advantage 2,891]

I actually sort've agree, but I also know it was discussed in the BOG quite a bit about increasing it and they decided not to (can't really remember why though).

[Gooningitup 1,290]

Its actually true honestly for 1 TPE its not worth it for me. Well my english has vastly improved since i joined. It still takes me a few hours to write 500 words. When it takes me 30seconds to post on welfare for similar pay. 

[Beaviss 4,957]

It should be 8.....

[Smarch 3,157]

Wasn't part of affiliation with the other leagues that we leave PT'S at 6?

[Da Trifecta 1,899]

13 minutes ago, Smarch said:

Wasn't part of affiliation with the other leagues that we leave PT'S at 6?

 

Still not fair to those who are only in this league.

[Smarch 3,157]

24 minutes ago, Lucky 2 Times said:

 

Still not fair to those who are only in this league.

So you say get rid of affiliation so they  VHL can die then?

 

You increase pt you lose affiliation. Those that are only here as you say should care more about the overall league and not padding their status 

[Beaviss 4,957]

13 minutes ago, Smarch said:

So you say get rid of affiliation so they  VHL can die then?

 

You increase pt you lose affiliation. Those that are only here as you say should care more about the overall league and not padding their status 

 

Lets reduce welfare then lol

[Da Trifecta 1,899]

27 minutes ago, Smarch said:

So you say get rid of affiliation so they  VHL can die then?

 

You increase pt you lose affiliation. Those that are only here as you say should care more about the overall league and not padding their status 

 

I mean fuck it, I guess those who aren't in another league get shit on because they aren't in that league. We are pretty much smacking those members in the face for not being in another league.

 

13 minutes ago, Beaviss said:

 

Lets reduce welfare then lol

 

100% agree

[omgitshim 902]

You can increase the PT to 7 or 8 and increase the Welfare of PTs from affiliates to 7 or 8 as well. As long as the amount of work done remains the same for every affiliated league, it doesn't necessarily have to be locked in at 6 (i.e. 500 words posted here, EFL, or SBA or wherever is always worth 7 or 8 here it's still the same value across leagues). Or reduce the free 4 (veteran 5) down to 3 (vet 4). There just needs to be a better incentive to post tasks as 1 point difference isn't really worth it if you aren't also using that task in other leagues anyway.

[Beketov 9,033]

10 hours ago, Smarch said:

Wasn't part of affiliation with the other leagues that we leave PT'S at 6?

 

This. Their PT’s are worth 6. Part of the deal was that no league gets any PT advantage over any others. If ours are worth, for example, 8 and they can claim the full 6 in the SBA that gives all their members more incentive to do PT’s here because they’d get 14 total TPE. If they do it there and claim it here they get 12. It makes for an unfair partnership.

 

9 hours ago, Beaviss said:

 

Lets reduce welfare then lol

Introduces a different problem. At that point it becomes “I’ve earned max pension for being a long time VHL member and this guy not even doing a PT here gets x amount more than me”. We set it where we did because it rewards long time guys while not giving guys from other leagues a major advantage.

 

I do get the argument: why bother doing a PT when welfare gets you 1 TPE less which can be easily earned elsewhere. Thing is, we went through A LOT of possible options and this one was the most fair all around.

[Beketov 9,033]

7 hours ago, omgitshim said:

You can increase the PT to 7 or 8 and increase the Welfare of PTs from affiliates to 7 or 8 as well. As long as the amount of work done remains the same for every affiliated league, it doesn't necessarily have to be locked in at 6 (i.e. 500 words posted here, EFL, or SBA or wherever is always worth 7 or 8 here it's still the same value across leagues). Or reduce the free 4 (veteran 5) down to 3 (vet 4). There just needs to be a better incentive to post tasks as 1 point difference isn't really worth it if you aren't also using that task in other leagues anyway.

I’d have to talk to the other league heads. If our affiliate PT’s are worth the same as our regular PT’s it might not be an issue since it’s still the same amount of total points regardless of where you do the PT.

However at that point you have he situation I mentioned above. Long time VHL guys seeing their welfare as significantly worse than a brand new guy who hasn’t and isn’t putting any actual work in here.

[Beaviss 4,957]

1 hour ago, Beketov said:

I’d have to talk to the other league heads. If our affiliate PT’s are worth the same as our regular PT’s it might not be an issue since it’s still the same amount of total points regardless of where you do the PT.

However at that point you have he situation I mentioned above. Long time VHL guys seeing their welfare as significantly worse than a brand new guy who hasn’t and isn’t putting any actual work in here.

 

The problem with the old guys caring to much about it is it’s driving activity down. When I started there where 3-5 media’s posted a day now its maybe 1-2. It’s driving league activity down, it’s fine and dandy that people don’t want to do media’s or they are busy etc but in the end it’s hurting the league and if a few oldies want to get butthurt over it I’m sure it’s worth reducing welfare by 1 or 2.

[Quik 4,113]

IIRC, the other league's were fine with our PTs being worth more, as long as affiliated PTs were worth the same.

 

Re: Welfare/Pension, I get that people feel like it's causing issues with activity, but the reality is that, if people have put in the time and are still here creating legit players, that isn't hurting the league. If you got rid of it, you'd likely lose a bunch of players, which would hurt the league. Especially with Pension, some people have put years into this league (some even over a decade now), so if they want to claim pension that is close to the same value of a PT in order to stick around, I lean towards them deserving that opportunity, especially given affiliated PTs being a thing that means someone might never post a full PT here and still max out their TPE.

 

I brought this up at the time, as a let's see what happens, but I think what should happen is raising the bar for claiming welfare. Having 2 players hit 400 TPE isn't exactly difficult anymore, especially with the new pay system. I think if we raise it to 2x600, it would probably create the separation people look for when distinguishing between vet members who have put in work, and new members only claiming welfare.

 

I also think maybe capping welfare/pension weeks at 10, vs. capping a PT or affiliated PT at 12, might be another option to look at, as well as the above.

[Tagger 2,722]

16 minutes ago, Quik said:

I also think maybe capping welfare/pension weeks at 10, vs. capping a PT or affiliated PT at 12, might be another option to look at, as well as the above.

This was actually the option I was just about to suggest myself, although the figure I had in mind for the welfare/pension weeks was 9 (Think either would work). It continues to stop the problem Beketov raised about older members potentially being unhappy guys doing PTs elsewhere getting considerably more than them while also encouraging members who are willing to do everything to make the cap to do Point Tasks as they will have a guaranteed advantage over any welfare player (and in reality, it never should have been a possibility that pension guys could make the TPE cap without doing a PT or holding a job in the first place). 

 

Maybe in addition, welfare/pension guys who take up a job are able to make the 12 cap?  Provided someone has shown that they are willing to help the league, I don't neccessarily think those who do jobs should be limited as to how much they can earn.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Tagger

[Da Trifecta 1,899]

Well you won't see a single PT out of me here because I can do it in another league and it will take away form activity/discussion here. This week was the first time in a few weeks I did a PT here only due to the doubles week. Unless I have incentive to do something here, what's the point?

[Quik 4,113]

1 minute ago, Tagger said:

This was actually the option I was just about to suggest myself, although the figure I had in mind for the welfare/pension weeks was 9 (Think either would work). It continues to stop the problem Beketov raised about older members potentially being unhappy guys doing PTs elsewhere getting considerably more than them while also encouraging members who are willing to do everything to do Point Tasks as they will have a guaranteed advantage over any welfare player (and in reality, it never should have been a possibility that pension guys could make the TPE cap without doing a PT or holding a job in the first place).  

 

Maybe in addition, welfare/pension guys who take up a job are able to make the 12 cap?  Provided someone has shown that they are willing to help the league, I don't neccessarily think those who do jobs should be limited as to how much they can earn.

 

Thing is, part of the reasoning for not capping welfare/pension was that, it still takes work to max out. Even if you're getting 5 from pension, you need to earn 7 TPE from the following ways:

 

3 TPE Podcast OR 2 TPE VHL.com Article

2 TPE Press Conference

2 TPE Trivia

Job Pay

 

Either way, you're still putting in work, which is why I'm not even sure I agree with my own suggestion of capping claims lol.

[Beketov 9,033]

5 minutes ago, Lucky 2 Times said:

Well you won't see a single PT out of me here because I can do it in another league and it will take away form activity/discussion here. This week was the first time in a few weeks I did a PT here only due to the doubles week. Unless I have incentive to do something here, what's the point?

The whole point of the partnership is to be fair to all three leagues. So sure, gay might mean some decreases PT’s but that’s the price threat needs to be paid. We remove it we lose those members. We can’t auddenly offer incentive to do our PT’s over he SBA or EFL because that isn’t a fair partnership; it encourages everyone to only do VHL PT’s. That’s great for a “VHL First” mentality but doesn’t work in a fair partnership.

[Pandar 302]

I mean, you're going to see fewer articles/sigs on a week by week basis, yes.  You'll also see more members, which I think you've already seen at this point.  The entire goal of the Affiliate welfare system is that it's enabling our shared member bases to be active participants in all of these leagues.  You're always going to have activity on each league, though, as people will have the ability to talk about whichever league they're invested in at the moment, or if there's a doubles week. 

 

If you want to give priority to people who do their work here, you can probably expect to lose the Affiliate PT agreement from the other two leagues, but that's just a guess.

[Beketov 9,033]

1 minute ago, Pandar said:

If you want to give priority to people who do their work here, you can probably expect to lose the Affiliate PT agreement from the other two leagues, but that's just a guess.

It’s a guarantee. I approached them with that initially and they were very clear hat no deal would ever be struck that offered incentive to any of the three leagues over the other two. It’s not mutually beneficial at that point.

[Tagger 2,722]

Just now, Quik said:

 

Thing is, part of the reasoning for not capping welfare/pension was that, it still takes work to max out. Even if you're getting 5 from pension, you need to earn 7 TPE from the following ways:

 

3 TPE Podcast OR 2 TPE VHL.com Article

2 TPE Press Conference

2 TPE Trivia

Job Pay

 

Either way, you're still putting in work, which is why I'm not even sure I agree with my own suggestion of capping claims lol.

You're still putting in work, but depending on how capable you are at doing PT's, you're still putting in around an hour less work per week if you elect to do welfare/pensions, which by the end of an eight year career includiing a year in the minors would come to around (if we say a PT is an hour) 70 hours less work over the course of a career, which is a hell of a lot less work to put in yet still potentially be able to get the same rewards as someone who does Point Tasks. And also add to that that a member with pension likely has carryover, so despite doing less work, could potentially keep a TPE advantage despite not doing a point task for that players career. 

 

Also, implementing this would actually line us up at least a bit closer to both of our affiliates, who actually cap welfare/pension players at 6 TPE out of a possible 12.

[Beketov 9,033]

4 minutes ago, Tagger said:

Also, implementing this would actually line us up at least a bit closer to both of our affiliates, who actually cap welfare/pension players at 6 TPE out of a possible 12.

That is not true at all unless things have changed. I think when the EFL first opened it was the case but as of the partnership there is no limitation (that I know of) when doing welfare. Only limitation is the cap change between people with jobs and people without. At least that’s how it works for “partnered welfare”. It’s possible that just regular welfare is capped but I would be surprised.

 

I’d be relatively okay with increasing PT’s and affiliate PT’s to 8 but we will notice that it will result in people just all doing the same thing and getting bored of regular PT’s. We brought in PC’s to help bridge that gap and offer an extra option (since everything me was saying they were bored of the same PT’s). Unfortunately we made the assumption that most welfare guys wouldn’t bother with hiring the cap which does not appear to be the case.

[Quik 4,113]

2 minutes ago, Tagger said:

You're still putting in work, but depending on how capable you are at doing PT's, you're still putting in around an hour less work per week if you elect to do welfare/pensions, which by the end of an eight year career includiing a year in the minors would come to around (if we say a PT is an hour) 70 hours less work over the course of a career, which is a hell of a lot less work to put in yet still potentially be able to get the same rewards as someone who does Point Tasks. And also add to that that a member with pension likely has carryover, so despite doing less work, could potentially keep a TPE advantage despite not doing a point task for that players career. 

 

Also, implementing this would actually line us up at least a bit closer to both of our affiliates, who actually cap welfare/pension players at 6 TPE out of a possible 12.

 

I mean, yeah, it's less hours overall, but if you get rid of it, you likely lose the members altogether. Also, especially with Pension, there is a lot of hours that have been put in before hand that members who started recently won't catch up to in a while. They deserve a bit of a break as well, which is why pension is at 5, while welfare is at 4 (there's a reason that's fairly close to PT level as well, which is retention of members, even on the fringes of activity)

 

This was all discussed in the BOG when the changes came about, and the consensus is that while, yes, you have some members making close to, or exactly, the same amount with less "work" put in, they are still contributing to the league, and keeping as many active/semi-active members as possible is better than losing them.

 

The people who only claim welfare/pension, and don't contribute to the league, will see a noticeable difference between their TPE and those that are doing PTs, when all is said and done. I think, at the end of the day, people just have to worry about their own players/activity. The other stuff all gets discussed ad nauseum before being implemented. Making suggestions is fair, but there is, more often than not, reason behind decisions that get made.

[Tagger 2,722]

4 minutes ago, Beketov said:

That is not true at all unless things have changed. I think when the EFL first opened it was the case but as of the partnership there is no limitation (that I know of) when doing welfare. Only limitation is the cap change between people with jobs and people without. At least that’s how it works for “partnered welfare”. It’s possible that just regular welfare is capped but I would be surprised.

 

I’d be relatively okay with increasing PT’s and affiliate PT’s to 8 but we will notice that it will result in people just all doing the same thing and getting bored of regular PT’s. We brought in PC’s to help bridge that gap and offer an extra option (since everything me was saying they were bored of the same PT’s). Unfortunately we made the assumption that most welfare guys wouldn’t bother with hiring the cap which does not appear to be the case.

 

That was last edited April 2nd of this year. I'm not in that league, but I would think they'd edit that out if it was wrong no? 

 

But do you actually fancy giving any thoughts on a welfare/pension earning cap?

Edited May 18, 2018 by Tagger

[Quik 4,113]

2 minutes ago, Beketov said:

Unfortunately we made the assumption that most welfare guys wouldn’t bother with hiring the cap which does not appear to be the case. 

 

I don't think that was ever the case. It was more that, if someone does claim welfare, but is willing to put in the bit of extra work to hit the max, then good for them. The ones that people seem to be worried about, who don't contribute anything to the site, are the ones who would just claim welfare and be gone the other 167.9 hours of the week. At least, I always looked at this as a scenario where we can get more members to strengthen the league, even if they weren't earning TPE in the traditional way.