Doc Holliday

The guy guys who used the homophobic language, did. I feel like that's pretty clear.
 
Edited, because I somehow accidentally keep letting Bana off the hook. Anyway, don't be an asshole to marginalized groups and you got no beef with me.

Sounds an awful lot like an excuse to me.
 
 
I have reported both posts in question, and I hope the mods take them seriously.
 
 
While I understand these concerns from an admin perspective, I think at least a censure or warning of some kind is warranted. It sounds like you want to appease people who are upset by the language without actually having the offending parties suffer any consequences. Even if it's just "hey, watch your language or there will be more serious consequences," that's enough to tell me you take this sort of thing seriously. Instead, you trot out this idea of "older internet tolerance." I don't want to be a member of a community that tolerates any sort of discrimination like this.
 
 
I literally quoted it and said it was bullshit--how is that different than telling you it offended me? Or did you want the courtesy of not being called out in public? Because you don't get that courtesy once you cross into homophobia.
 
@Beketov look man, from the thread recently I know you're a busy guy, and I know running a site and community like this takes a lot. I don't want to take up any more of your time. I had respect for you as an admin--you seem pretty humble and aware of your limitations. That's great. But this is too much for me. I was so-so on sticking around based on actual league experience, but recent conduct from VHL members has made me never want to come back here. I want you to hear that you're losing a member over the "older internet tolerance" you don't want to ruffle. I'm retiring my player and I won't be coming back unless this community forces its members to do the bare minimum in not using discriminatory language. I hope you can see why that would be valuable to some people who might want to be a part of this community.
 
Peace and blessings to everyone except Josh and Bana, who can get fucked.

I think this is an important point that often gets missed. However, I'd argue the onus is still on you to consider this when choosing your words. There is a lot of talk about intent in semantics--e.g. "I didn't mean it like that"--but intent is essentially irrelevant. Rather than considering intent, you ought to consider impact. How did the people who heard the words receive them? Especially someone who identifies as LGBTQ? Given their history, they're likely going to hear "gay" referring to their sexuality rather than the archaic meaning that, despite your claim earlier, is not really widely used anymore. So the impact is such that "this is big gay," which context tells us means "I don't like this" or "this is bad," will land on an LGBTQ person and feel like an indirect statement about who they are.
 
So yes, offense is taken. But if you pay attention to what people say offends them, often you can anticipate it and not use vocabulary that is likely to cause offense.
 
Also, while I'm here: cheers to the BOG for taking this seriously. When all the fracas started, I had hoped to do my part to help curb a thing I've seen in many corners of the internet, and even if the process wasn't exactly smooth or pretty, I'm glad VHL will be a more welcoming place for future members.

I think this is an important point that often gets missed. However, I'd argue the onus is still on you to consider this when choosing your words. There is a lot of talk about intent in semantics--e.g. "I didn't mean it like that"--but intent is essentially irrelevant. Rather than considering intent, you ought to consider impact. How did the people who heard the words receive them? Especially someone who identifies as LGBTQ? Given their history, they're likely going to hear "gay" referring to their sexuality rather than the archaic meaning that, despite your claim earlier, is not really widely used anymore. So the impact is such that "this is big gay," which context tells us means "I don't like this" or "this is bad," will land on an LGBTQ person and feel like an indirect statement about who they are.
 
So yes, offense is taken. But if you pay attention to what people say offends them, often you can anticipate it and not use vocabulary that is likely to cause offense.
 
Also, while I'm here: cheers to the BOG for taking this seriously. When all the fracas started, I had hoped to do my part to help curb a thing I've seen in many corners of the internet, and even if the process wasn't exactly smooth or pretty, I'm glad VHL will be a more welcoming place for future members.

I think this is an important point that often gets missed. However, I'd argue the onus is still on you to consider this when choosing your words. There is a lot of talk about intent in semantics--e.g. "I didn't mean it like that"--but intent is essentially irrelevant. Rather than considering intent, you ought to consider impact. How did the people who heard the words receive them? Especially someone who identifies as LGBTQ? Given their history, they're likely going to hear "gay" referring to their sexuality rather than the archaic meaning that, despite your claim earlier, is not really widely used anymore. So the impact is such that "this is big gay," which context tells us means "I don't like this" or "this is bad," will land on an LGBTQ person and feel like an indirect statement about who they are.
 
So yes, offense is taken. But if you pay attention to what people say offends them, often you can anticipate it and not use vocabulary that is likely to cause offense.
 
Also, while I'm here: cheers to the BOG for taking this seriously. When all the fracas started, I had hoped to do my part to help curb a thing I've seen in many corners of the internet, and even if the process wasn't exactly smooth or pretty, I'm glad VHL will be a more welcoming place for future members.

I think this is an important point that often gets missed. However, I'd argue the onus is still on you to consider this when choosing your words. There is a lot of talk about intent in semantics--e.g. "I didn't mean it like that"--but intent is essentially irrelevant. Rather than considering intent, you ought to consider impact. How did the people who heard the words receive them? Especially someone who identifies as LGBTQ? Given their history, they're likely going to hear "gay" referring to their sexuality rather than the archaic meaning that, despite your claim earlier, is not really widely used anymore. So the impact is such that "this is big gay," which context tells us means "I don't like this" or "this is bad," will land on an LGBTQ person and feel like an indirect statement about who they are.
 
So yes, offense is taken. But if you pay attention to what people say offends them, often you can anticipate it and not use vocabulary that is likely to cause offense.
 
Also, while I'm here: cheers to the BOG for taking this seriously. When all the fracas started, I had hoped to do my part to help curb a thing I've seen in many corners of the internet, and even if the process wasn't exactly smooth or pretty, I'm glad VHL will be a more welcoming place for future members.

Thank you @Doc Holliday for saying this.
 
@PotatoKing and anyone else. You're entirely correct that you can't predict the impact of all your words. However, if someone tells you the word(s) you're using hurt them and you still continue to use those words, you are choosing to be hurtful and choosing to offend.
 
 
 

I think this is an important point that often gets missed. However, I'd argue the onus is still on you to consider this when choosing your words. There is a lot of talk about intent in semantics--e.g. "I didn't mean it like that"--but intent is essentially irrelevant. Rather than considering intent, you ought to consider impact. How did the people who heard the words receive them? Especially someone who identifies as LGBTQ? Given their history, they're likely going to hear "gay" referring to their sexuality rather than the archaic meaning that, despite your claim earlier, is not really widely used anymore. So the impact is such that "this is big gay," which context tells us means "I don't like this" or "this is bad," will land on an LGBTQ person and feel like an indirect statement about who they are.
 
So yes, offense is taken. But if you pay attention to what people say offends them, often you can anticipate it and not use vocabulary that is likely to cause offense.
 
Also, while I'm here: cheers to the BOG for taking this seriously. When all the fracas started, I had hoped to do my part to help curb a thing I've seen in many corners of the internet, and even if the process wasn't exactly smooth or pretty, I'm glad VHL will be a more welcoming place for future members.

I think this is an important point that often gets missed. However, I'd argue the onus is still on you to consider this when choosing your words. There is a lot of talk about intent in semantics--e.g. "I didn't mean it like that"--but intent is essentially irrelevant. Rather than considering intent, you ought to consider impact. How did the people who heard the words receive them? Especially someone who identifies as LGBTQ? Given their history, they're likely going to hear "gay" referring to their sexuality rather than the archaic meaning that, despite your claim earlier, is not really widely used anymore. So the impact is such that "this is big gay," which context tells us means "I don't like this" or "this is bad," will land on an LGBTQ person and feel like an indirect statement about who they are.
 
So yes, offense is taken. But if you pay attention to what people say offends them, often you can anticipate it and not use vocabulary that is likely to cause offense.
 
Also, while I'm here: cheers to the BOG for taking this seriously. When all the fracas started, I had hoped to do my part to help curb a thing I've seen in many corners of the internet, and even if the process wasn't exactly smooth or pretty, I'm glad VHL will be a more welcoming place for future members.

I think this is an important point that often gets missed. However, I'd argue the onus is still on you to consider this when choosing your words. There is a lot of talk about intent in semantics--e.g. "I didn't mean it like that"--but intent is essentially irrelevant. Rather than considering intent, you ought to consider impact. How did the people who heard the words receive them? Especially someone who identifies as LGBTQ? Given their history, they're likely going to hear "gay" referring to their sexuality rather than the archaic meaning that, despite your claim earlier, is not really widely used anymore. So the impact is such that "this is big gay," which context tells us means "I don't like this" or "this is bad," will land on an LGBTQ person and feel like an indirect statement about who they are.
 
So yes, offense is taken. But if you pay attention to what people say offends them, often you can anticipate it and not use vocabulary that is likely to cause offense.
 
Also, while I'm here: cheers to the BOG for taking this seriously. When all the fracas started, I had hoped to do my part to help curb a thing I've seen in many corners of the internet, and even if the process wasn't exactly smooth or pretty, I'm glad VHL will be a more welcoming place for future members.

I am locking this thread due to ongoing change in Code of Conduct behavior revisions from BOG. Please refrain from further discussion and reference of this issue until further notice.

?
 
If you read what I said, I conceded that a warning would be a perfectly acceptable option. It would be a statement that this sort of conduct isn't acceptable in this community. But clearly, that isn't the case.

The issue I have with your response is more the "ah well it's just how things are around here." You're allowed to run your league however you want, but I don't want to be a part of a community that is okay with homophobic shit like that being thrown around. I'm not quitting over a single post, but really a characteristic of the community nobody is interested in changing.

Yes but you and I both know that meaning is antiquated and does not reflect common usage in the 21st century. But let's put that aside. Let's look at Josh's original post. How exactly does "carefree" fit into the sentiment of "This is big gay" in his response to losing in the finals?
 
You're the one who is ignoring context here in order to defend something I think should be indefensible.

The fuck kind of homophobic bullshit is this? Are you twelve?
 
Should hire real GMs.
 
Edit to add that it's even more insane and offensive that a commissioner talks like this.
 

So, based on context, it seems like the connotation you're employing here is "bad." Considering it's a term for people who are homosexual, you can see why I'd take issue with the implication you're making.
 
Also, feel free to list all 20 of the "connotations" (which I'm assuming are different from definitions/meanings) of the word "gay." I'll wait.

The fuck kind of homophobic bullshit is this? Are you twelve?
 
Should hire real GMs.
 
Edit to add that it's even more insane and offensive that a commissioner talks like this.
 

Sounds an awful lot like an excuse to me.
 
 
I have reported both posts in question, and I hope the mods take them seriously.
 
 
While I understand these concerns from an admin perspective, I think at least a censure or warning of some kind is warranted. It sounds like you want to appease people who are upset by the language without actually having the offending parties suffer any consequences. Even if it's just "hey, watch your language or there will be more serious consequences," that's enough to tell me you take this sort of thing seriously. Instead, you trot out this idea of "older internet tolerance." I don't want to be a member of a community that tolerates any sort of discrimination like this.
 
 
I literally quoted it and said it was bullshit--how is that different than telling you it offended me? Or did you want the courtesy of not being called out in public? Because you don't get that courtesy once you cross into homophobia.
 
@Beketov look man, from the thread recently I know you're a busy guy, and I know running a site and community like this takes a lot. I don't want to take up any more of your time. I had respect for you as an admin--you seem pretty humble and aware of your limitations. That's great. But this is too much for me. I was so-so on sticking around based on actual league experience, but recent conduct from VHL members has made me never want to come back here. I want you to hear that you're losing a member over the "older internet tolerance" you don't want to ruffle. I'm retiring my player and I won't be coming back unless this community forces its members to do the bare minimum in not using discriminatory language. I hope you can see why that would be valuable to some people who might want to be a part of this community.
 
Peace and blessings to everyone except Josh and Bana, who can get fucked.

I think you're giving them a lot of credit, Bek. Something tells me if you go search post history or Discord message history, this is going to be a trend.
 
But fine, who should I talk to about this? Because I do have a serious issue with it, and I think it is grounds for someone to be fired, or at the very least warned. Ask gorlab. He was banned from SBA over repeated comments like this, because they're incredibly offensive. To have a commissioner and GM openly talk like this, with one of them doubling down on it, only for them to merely get told to "calm down" is not a good look.

I'm attacking you because you're out here saying that bad = gay. That's insulting to a lot of people. Would you say "this is big black" or "this is big handicapped" in the same way?
 
Your homophobia is showing, bruv.

The fuck kind of homophobic bullshit is this? Are you twelve?
 
Should hire real GMs.
 
Edit to add that it's even more insane and offensive that a commissioner talks like this.
 

Locked this thread for the time being. At which point that some others decide it's fine to reopen it will be. 
 
However it should be stated absolutely. Using slurs which have been appropriated to be homophobic, racist, or otherwise considered offensive is obviously not tolerated. The question for debate here isn't whether or not what Josh said was wrong, Josh himself admits that regardless of context he had not considered the offensive nature of what he said. He literally said had he been approached privately he would of even edited his response out of respect to the offense taken. 
 
We do not need further members belittling Doc or any others for taking offense to what was said, not only because that is a pathetic response to something like this, it's wholly inappropriate and wrong. Worse yet, this is a finals game thread for the VHLM so derailing a topic that only loosely related to the subject at hand anyway, meaning I have no issue locking this thread for a myriad of reasons. Seeing a user change his username on Discord to a slur following these events, for example, is exactly the kind of conduct I'd hope the majority of our members are better than, and can objectively regardless of viewpoints on context see how that is an offensive and inappropriate response to the circumstances. 
 

The guy guys who used the homophobic language, did. I feel like that's pretty clear.
 
Edited, because I somehow accidentally keep letting Bana off the hook. Anyway, don't be an asshole to marginalized groups and you got no beef with me.

Sounds an awful lot like an excuse to me.
 
 
I have reported both posts in question, and I hope the mods take them seriously.
 
 
While I understand these concerns from an admin perspective, I think at least a censure or warning of some kind is warranted. It sounds like you want to appease people who are upset by the language without actually having the offending parties suffer any consequences. Even if it's just "hey, watch your language or there will be more serious consequences," that's enough to tell me you take this sort of thing seriously. Instead, you trot out this idea of "older internet tolerance." I don't want to be a member of a community that tolerates any sort of discrimination like this.
 
 
I literally quoted it and said it was bullshit--how is that different than telling you it offended me? Or did you want the courtesy of not being called out in public? Because you don't get that courtesy once you cross into homophobia.
 
@Beketov look man, from the thread recently I know you're a busy guy, and I know running a site and community like this takes a lot. I don't want to take up any more of your time. I had respect for you as an admin--you seem pretty humble and aware of your limitations. That's great. But this is too much for me. I was so-so on sticking around based on actual league experience, but recent conduct from VHL members has made me never want to come back here. I want you to hear that you're losing a member over the "older internet tolerance" you don't want to ruffle. I'm retiring my player and I won't be coming back unless this community forces its members to do the bare minimum in not using discriminatory language. I hope you can see why that would be valuable to some people who might want to be a part of this community.
 
Peace and blessings to everyone except Josh and Bana, who can get fucked.

I think you're giving them a lot of credit, Bek. Something tells me if you go search post history or Discord message history, this is going to be a trend.
 
But fine, who should I talk to about this? Because I do have a serious issue with it, and I think it is grounds for someone to be fired, or at the very least warned. Ask gorlab. He was banned from SBA over repeated comments like this, because they're incredibly offensive. To have a commissioner and GM openly talk like this, with one of them doubling down on it, only for them to merely get told to "calm down" is not a good look.