SHL has a constitution and created their own government wtf is this

[Devise 4,475]

And for the record to Wasty and anyone. We have A Thunderdome for a reason. Nobody has been tagging SHL guys in here trying to force feed a debate. Gorlab has defended his position when challenged, and while some of you may thing his words are offensive. We are in fact in the Thunderdome. We choose to allow people to blow off steam in this sub forum for a reason. 

 

None of us should have to apologize for debating SHL structure in an off topic area of our own board, especially when none of us have tried to make it out like this VHL vs SHL here in any capacity. Stop reaching. If we want to discuss things we agree or disagree with about your league we are free to do so. Just as your free to defend, but you don't need to come in here holier than thou that we are making this a bigger deal than it is. 

[RomanesEuntDomus 442]

18 minutes ago, Devise said:

 

I don't believe anyone said they were connected. Gorlab is having a flame war in here with people from the SHL and some of us posted a few comments regarding your "rules". Calling them a constitution is silly in our opinion. As is having head office voting. Obviously it's a different strokes situation that is why we are here, and those that enjoy that are there. But with the exception of Gorlab this has been a civil conversation. And Gorlab has clearly stated he has his issues with the SHL. 

 

All I can speak to is what I've heard and seen. From my perspective I don't even know if we've perma banned a member here. Not once. Meg maybe? But even I think that was temporary. I'm not arguing whether Gorlab deserved it or not, only that Gorlab is hardly the only member I've heard "cause issues" with the SHL. That doesn't speak to how it is now, I have zero knowledge of that. But looking from the outside I've heard about way more actual members needing to be banned drama coming from the SHL than I have ever heard from here. 

 

Sometimes stability in leadership and league operations means the league gets to keep an identity. I'm not saying we are perfect, but I'll just say that is a big reason why I think Lobbyists and trying to define rules as a "constitution" and electing people that could make serious league changes is not only short sighted, but silly. That stuff "barely" works in the real world, where you actually need it in some cases. 

 

I think there is one big misconception here: Nobody in the SHL calls it a "constitution". Only people in this thread here on the VHL do because that's the term that was used by eagles in the OP.

 

Whether you think a voting-based system is a good idea or not is a legitimate discussion of course, there sure are good arguments for both sides of the argument. I just think that some people are overly dramatic when it comes to that idea, it's not nearly as outrageous as some make it sound. Also, I think it's important to remember that the voting-system wasn't implemented because the masses were demanding it and because the league felt that they had to accomodate their feelings, as some are alleging. It was introduced by the Commissioner because he wanted some help running the day-to-day operations of the league. He could've just hand-picked 6 people himself but instead decided to let the league vote on them, which again I don't think is a crazy idea. In fact, the voting-system was a bit more complicated than that, the league actually only voted on 4 of the HO members while 2 were to be hand picked by the Commish, the Commish just decided to go with the next-best vote getters fors his picks.

 

 

Edited April 11, 2017 by RomanesEuntDomus

[Kendrick 4,741]

The HO in the SHL has always been shady though, which is one of the reasons I just post updates and get out. It always seemed like they had 2 bad apples floating in their HO and they never truly were able to shake that.

[Devise 4,475]

9 minutes ago, RomanesEuntDomus said:

 

I think there is one big misconception here: Nobody in the SHL calls it a "constitution". Only people in this thread here on the VHL do because that's the term that was used by eagles in the OP.

 

Whether you think a voting-based system is a good idea or not is a legitimate discussion of course, there sure are good arguments for both sides of the argument. I just think that some people are overly dramatic when it comes to that idea, it's not nearly as outrageous as some make it sound. Also, I think it's important to remember that the voting-system wasn't implemented because the masses were demanding it and because the league felt that they had to accomodate their feelings, as some are alleging. It was introduced by the Commissioner because he wanted some help running the day-to-day operations of the league. He could've just hand-picked 6 people himself but instead decided to let the league vote on them, which again I don't think is a crazy idea. In fact, the voting-system was a bit more complicated than that, the league actually only voted on 4 of the HO members while 2 were to be hand picked by the Commish, the Commish just decided to go with the next-best vote getters fors his picks.

 

 

 

My issue with elections for anything league related is that elections doesn't automatically mean democracy or "more" league input. Making sure you get peoples input, note it, and then making decisions from there is just as effective and you don't run the risk of people troll getting votes to do things. As Kendrick mentioned, this keeps bad apples out of the bunch. It is why I find it outrageous. Want the league to weigh in on something? Create a bloody poll and have your HO and Admins talk through questions and concerns with all members. A good league consensus on idea is all that is required, not wasting time trying to see which members are most popular for which roles. 

[RomanesEuntDomus 442]

1 minute ago, Devise said:

 

My issue with elections for anything league related is that elections doesn't automatically mean democracy or "more" league input. Making sure you get peoples input, note it, and then making decisions from there is just as effective and you don't run the risk of people troll getting votes to do things. As Kendrick mentioned, this keeps bad apples out of the bunch. It is why I find it outrageous. Want the league to weigh in on something? Create a bloody poll and have your HO and Admins talk through questions and concerns with all members. A good league consensus on idea is all that is required, not wasting time trying to see which members are most popular for which roles. 

 

I get that opinion and I actually kinda agree with it to some extent. It's not like I was a big proponent of the voting-based system or anything, I'm kinda indifferent actually and just think it's weird how much some people seem to hate that idea. But I do find it quite interesting that people on here love to bash the SHL's userbase, yet you don't seem to think too highly of your own members either, since you don't think they can be trusted with having an actual say on league matters. We are not even talking about direct democracy either, just mere representatives which the Owners also have the right to veto.

 

[Kendrick 4,741]

4 minutes ago, RomanesEuntDomus said:

 

But I do find it quite interesting that people on here love to bash the SHL's userbase, yet you don't seem to think too highly of your own members either, since you don't think they can be trusted with having an actual say on league matters. We are not even talking about direct democracy either, just mere representatives which the Owners also have the right to veto.

 

You have players actively coming here and created players with the sole purpose of going back there to bash us. Not only that there are a few select "elitists" on the SHL who will always bash the VHL regardless. Hell, many of those same people haven't even tried to come over here here because they know the SHL is where they are "safe". I think very highly of the majority of members in the VHL, and I firmly believe they all have a say in what goes on here; which they do time and time again. Not sure where you got that indication.

 

The fact the voting system over there is just a popularity contest is something you need to look at. You'll always defend the SHL though regardless, even though many member have pointed at you directly as an issue.

[Devise 4,475]

6 minutes ago, RomanesEuntDomus said:

a. But I do find it quite interesting that people on here love to bash the SHL's userbase, yet you don't seem to think too highly of your own members either, since you don't think they can be trusted with having an actual say on league matters.

 

Who said that? Tons of new faces have come into the BoG over the years, and I think the fact that we are willing to listen to and respond to peoples feedback regardless says we believe they can be trusted with having a say on league matters. It's all about an entirely different approach though, no one person alone should determine league changes. Period. Nobody's opinion is worth more weight than someone else. So I don't see how there is a trust issue. It's not like the Blue Team goes "this is what is happening bitches, suck it up, without conversations and feedback and debates across the forum. Almost all of our changes have been widely debated for seasons before we even begin to consider them. And even then we only find a consensus.

 

Also nobody is bashing the SHL save for a few people in here. So I don't know. Again I think your grasping at straws here. 

[RomanesEuntDomus 442]

14 minutes ago, Devise said:

 

Who said that? Tons of new faces have come into the BoG over the years, and I think the fact that we are willing to listen to and respond to peoples feedback regardless says we believe they can be trusted with having a say on league matters. It's all about an entirely different approach though, no one person alone should determine league changes. Period. Nobody's opinion is worth more weight than someone else. So I don't see how there is a trust issue. It's not like the Blue Team goes "this is what is happening bitches, suck it up, without conversations and feedback and debates across the forum. Almost all of our changes have been widely debated for seasons before we even begin to consider them. And even then we only find a consensus.

 

Also nobody is bashing the SHL save for a few people in here. So I don't know. Again I think your grasping at straws here. 

 

Pretty much everything you just said applies to the SHL as well, aside from the elections. And as I said, i acknowledge that the voting-system has its flaws, but that's the case for every leadership system in a league like this. Or would you say that the one in the VHL is perfect?

 

I'd argue that nobody has been voted into the SHL HOso far as a troll or through sheer popularity. And even if that happened, there are systems in place to rectify this and allow either the Owners or the rest of the HO to get rid of a person like that.

 

But regarding the guys that have been voted in so far, whether you like them or not, I would argue that all of them are people that would have stood a reasonable chance to be selected for the HO if the system was based on appointments by the existing leadership and not election. So if you don't like some of the people in the SHL HO then that's fine, but a system without elections wouldn't have prevented them from making it in either.

 

15 minutes ago, Kendrick said:

You have players actively coming here and created players with the sole purpose of going back there to bash us. Not only that there are a few select "elitists" on the SHL who will always bash the VHL regardless. Hell, many of those same people haven't even tried to come over here here because they know the SHL is where they are "safe". I think very highly of the majority of members in the VHL, and I firmly believe they all have a say in what goes on here; which they do time and time again. Not sure where you got that indication.

 

The fact the voting system over there is just a popularity contest is something you need to look at. You'll always defend the SHL though regardless, even though many member have pointed at you directly as an issue.

 

I would argue that the same thing has been happening the other way around as well, people from the VHL signing up in the SHL just to troll etc... It's just the nature of the beast. I wonder who you think these "elitists" over there are who just constantly bash the VHL though, because I don't see them. My impression is that the large majority of the SHL either likes the VHL and maybe even has a player here or they just don't care about it and therefore never talk about the VHL either. Off the top of my head I can't think of a single person who constantly runs around bashing the VHL. Maybe those people exist but if so, they are an extremely small minority.

 

And yes, I will defend the SHL against unfair and often misinformed criticism like some of the stuff in this thread. That does NOT mean that I like everything that happens over there, nor does it mean that I think everyone who criticizes the SHL is stupid. Devise is making some good points in his beloved three-paragraphs, but you gotta grant that not every post in here that goes after the SHL is as well thought-out and reasonable.

[STZ 5,359]

SHL is a SJW league, I just realized... They have secondary positions, VHL makes you pay hard to change your position after birth.

 

"Can't believe you just assumed my position..."

[Jala 922]

tl;dr - Gorlab still hates SHL. VHL is best hockey sim league if you don't look at any other leagues.

 

VHL members troll SHL just as much as SHL members troll VHL. VHL talks about SHL WAY MORE then the SHL talks about VHL.

 

It's like Wasty said, it's two different leagues. Why does anyone who isn't actively over there care about how that league is run? It's stupid. I used to be really active around here and I got frustrated with how things were run, and besides my last outburst a little while ago, I just update and move on with my week. You guys can run your league how you want, and I'll feel it's run like shit. The SHL can run how they want, and the VHL only will think it's run like shit, but there's no crossover.

[Jala 922]

3 minutes ago, STZ said:

SHL is a SJW league, I just realized... They have secondary positions, VHL makes you pay hard to change your position after birth.

 

"Can't believe you just assumed my position..."

This was changed last season, or the season before. You pay 12?M, maybe 9, to switch now.

[Higgins 3,618]

1 hour ago, Devise said:

And for the record to Wasty and anyone. We have A Thunderdome for a reason. Nobody has been tagging SHL guys in here trying to force feed a debate. Gorlab has defended his position when challenged, and while some of you may thing his words are offensive. We are in fact in the Thunderdome. We choose to allow people to blow off steam in this sub forum for a reason. 

 

None of us should have to apologize for debating SHL structure in an off topic area of our own board, especially when none of us have tried to make it out like this VHL vs SHL here in any capacity. Stop reaching. If we want to discuss things we agree or disagree with about your league we are free to do so. Just as your free to defend, but you don't need to come in here holier than thou that we are making this a bigger deal than it is. 

 

Slow your roll. Wasty is active in both leagues, is entitled to his own opinion, and oh he's also a fucking beauty.

 

On SHL vs. VHL I would say 95% of each league doesn't care at all, but it's always that minority that is the loudest on both sides.

[Wasty 566]

To be honest I will never talk shit on either league. SHL was my start and still is my home, VHL has allowed me to grow graphically in ways I never thought was possible. If it wasn't for the amazing graphics by Koradek, Boubabi and Mr Baller pushing me to be better and hone my talents, I don't think I'd be even close to where I am in graphic work. Plus iv'e had the pleasure of having some great GMs here like Higgins and Will to help keep me up and active here. I love both leagues for different reasons and you'll never find me talking shit about either. Hell my own league, the PHL was birthed because of my love of both leagues and wanting to bring my ideas that i've gotten from both leagues into my own. 

 

I didn't really think I came in here with a "hoiler than thou" attitude but I joined the discussion because I first wanted to squash the idea the RED is a cheater and I understand and love the concept of the Thunderdome so I get that. However I don't like the idea of false information be pushed around so I had to stand in a say something. The SHL has it's issues and I understand that but the idea that the SHL is shit because they have a different idea and thoughts behind governing the league is also a shit thought. Like I said both leagues have their positives and negatives and I accept that. 

 

I just hate the notion that its either us or them and Gorlab's attitude towards the SHL and wanting to burn it down upsets me because the SHL is still a place I love and it's a place I go to to escape the rigors of my regular life. So my stepping in was to defend the league and if there was a thread like this in the SHL I'd step in and say the same thing about the VHL. I do find that the VHL has a bit more animosity towards the SHL than vice versa, in fact a thread just popped up on the SHL pointing out how well the VHL runs their offseason over the SHL so I think the idea or notion that the SHL has some hatred towards the VHL is in fact false. 

Edited April 11, 2017 by Wasty

[Jericho 917]

Everyoneneeds to learn to just #TrustTheProcess

 

@eaglesfan036

[Devise 4,475]

48 minutes ago, Higgins said:

 

Slow your roll. Wasty is active in both leagues, is entitled to his own opinion, and oh he's also a fucking beauty.

 

On SHL vs. VHL I would say 95% of each league doesn't care at all, but it's always that minority that is the loudest on both sides.

 

I have no issues with Wasty, or anyone in the SHL. I wasn't even referencing a specific member in the HO @RomanesEuntDomus we were just agreeing that the process isn't ideal. I was only bringing up Wasty because he initially was trying to make it out like this is some vocal minority saying that this is an SHL vs VHL issue. When really only Gorlab was shit talking with a few other names adding a troll post or two to boot. Most of this thread is just some discussion on a system that some think is outrageous, some think isn't etc. As you said the majority of us (and I fall into that category) don't give a shit. Each league it's own thing, and that is perfectly fine. 

[Will 4,660]

Just now, Wasty said:

To be honest I will never talk shit on either league. SHL was my start and still is my home, VHL has allowed me to grow graphically in ways I never thought was possible. If it wasn't for the amazing graphics by Koradek, Boubabi and Mr Baller pushing me to be better and hone my talents, I don't think I'd be even close to where I am in graphic work. I love both leagues for different reasons and you'll never find me talking shit about either. Hell my own league, the PHL was birthed because of my love of both leagues and wanting to bring my ideas that i've gotten from both leagues into my own. 

 

I didn't really think I came in here with a "hoiler than thou" attitude but I joined the discussion because I first wanted to squash the idea the RED is a cheater and I understand and love the concept of the Thunderdome so I get that. However I don't like the idea of false information be pushed around so I had to stand in a say something. The SHL has it's issues and I understand that but the idea that the SHL is shit because they have a different idea and thoughts behind governing the league is also a shit thought. Like I said both leagues have their positives and negatives and I accept that. 

 

I just hate the notion that its either us or them and Gorlab's attitude towards the SHL and wanting to burn it down upsets me because the SHL is still a place I love and it's a place I go to to escape the rigors of my regular life. So my stepping in was to defend the league and if there was a thread like this in the SHL I'd step in and say the same thing about the VHL. I do find that the VHL has a bit more animosity towards the SHL than vice versa, in fact a thread just popped up on the SHL pointing out how well the VHL runs their offseason over the SHL so I think the idea or notion that the SHL has some hatred towards the VHL is in fact false. 

 

Yeah, I mean, idk why Devise blew this up but just know that whatever gorlab says is all gorlab and not representative of the rest of us. I've never had a player on the SHL simply because my time is pretty occupied here, if I wasn't a commissioner I probably would have caved to all the people who have tried to get me to by now. I just think a lot of the comparisons that get brought up are quite pointless frankly because it doesn't take much to tell that they're two completely different environments. And even in the areas you can compare at the end of the day both sides will and should run it however they want. 

 

Point is you guys are always welcome here and its probably best we just avoid these kinds of threads all together. 

[Kendrick 4,741]

 

41 minutes ago, Wasty said:

I do find that the VHL has a bit more animosity towards the SHL than vice versa, in fact a thread just popped up on the SHL pointing out how well the VHL runs their offseason over the SHL so I think the idea or notion that the SHL has some hatred towards the VHL is in fact false. 

Some of that might stem from some of the SHL members actively attacking some of the VHL members, myself included. I mean there is a guy who created a player over here and then created another player to actively try and piss me off, when in reality it just looks petty on the SHL in that regard.

 

I do think Eagles is one of the members who does need to slow his roll over in the SHL because I have seen some flame threads being created over there in time. I know Bojo didn't really fit in here because it wasn't his thing, but he sort of bashed us on the way it out it seemed.

 

Overall, no one can really tell a member he must go to one place and one place only. I am GM'd by Wasty in the SHL and I actually love it. However, outside of the LR and PT's I find the league to actually have some very horrible/trash-like discussions meant to solely shoot the shit and drive activity; which it does but somewhat useless at times. The VHL is a more mature member base based on what actually is discussed and how frequently. But I don't think either league should be honed in on by one member to stick around in an individual place (i.e. Us or the Highway).

[sterling 1,997]

1 hour ago, Jala said:

tl;dr - Gorlab still hates SHL. VHL is best hockey sim league if you don't look at any other leagues.

 

VHL members troll SHL just as much as SHL members troll VHL. VHL talks about SHL WAY MORE then the SHL talks about VHL.

 

It's like Wasty said, it's two different leagues. Why does anyone who isn't actively over there care about how that league is run? It's stupid. I used to be really active around here and I got frustrated with how things were run, and besides my last outburst a little while ago, I just update and move on with my week. You guys can run your league how you want, and I'll feel it's run like shit. The SHL can run how they want, and the VHL only will think it's run like shit, but there's no crossover.

I don't think we talk about the shl much at all, this is the only thread that I know of. I think it's a few people that keep poking eackother as opposed to either league saying anything about another. With that said, I'd still like to see a summit series with both leagues taking part

[Devise 4,475]

34 minutes ago, sterling said:

I don't think we talk about the shl much at all, this is the only thread that I know of. I think it's a few people that keep poking eackother as opposed to either league saying anything about another. With that said, I'd still like to see a summit series with both leagues taking part

 

One day, this idea will come to pass. I feel like it's had off and on solid support but I don't recall the reason why we've never really gotten it off the ground. It is a lot of set up initially perhaps? But I feel like I see you advocate for this every real life year, and people go "hey that would be neat." But nothing ever comes from it. 

[Devise 4,475]

1 hour ago, Will said:

idk why Devise blew this up

 

I was just making sure Wasty, and likely most SHL guys who come in here since Spangle was liking his posts; that they know Gorlab is shit talking in an off topic thread. Wasty's initial post was very "SHL vs VHL" centered, especially trying to say we push that agenda just as much as some on the SHL do. But it's been beaten to death now that both sides can pretty much see it's just a few members doing that. 

[sterling 1,997]

5 minutes ago, Devise said:

 

One day, this idea will come to pass. I feel like it's had off and on solid support but I don't recall the reason why we've never really gotten it off the ground. It is a lot of set up initially perhaps? But I feel like I see you advocate for this every real life year, and people go "hey that would be neat." But nothing ever comes from it. 

I think spangle was on board but I don't know enough about the league to know whose in charge. Even if it was a shit show for fun or would be worth the effort to bridge some troubles

[TheLastOlympian07 2,388]

i think what turns a lot of members off the SHL is that damn offseason. because my player has been stuck on some not so great teams other than my rookie season and the fact i made a goaltender, the nature of the beast with STHS is that sometimes your goalie is awesome but sometimes he really sucks. and most of the time he has really sucked so my team hasnt made the playoffs since season S27 and the SHL is going into S34 now or something so i'm almost certain that most of my SHL experience has been 60% off-season/40 % regular season/IIHF (which no one cares about). So that is not very good if you were to ask anyone. yes yes i know its been said before but if it werent for me actually liking my teammates in Winnipeg I probably would have left a long time ago. I just didnt want to let them down but thats not right it should be the other way around no 60% of my time has been spent in the 'off-season"

[Jala 922]

On 2017-04-11 at 3:32 PM, sterling said:

I don't think we talk about the shl much at all, this is the only thread that I know of. I think it's a few people that keep poking eackother as opposed to either league saying anything about another. With that said, I'd still like to see a summit series with both leagues taking part

It's the different versions of the sim that get used between the leagues and how builds work from what I've seen. It's just too hard to get a result that isn't skewed one way or the other.

[Jala 922]

On 2017-04-11 at 3:32 PM, sterling said:

I don't think we talk about the shl much at all, this is the only thread that I know of. I think it's a few people that keep poking eackother as opposed to either league saying anything about another. With that said, I'd still like to see a summit series with both leagues taking part

It's the different versions of the sim that get used between the leagues and how builds work from what I've seen. It's just too hard to get a result that isn't skewed one way or the other.

[gorlab 4,321]

@Spangle pull your panties up and go write a review of some album or something instead of lurking this forum.

Edited April 14, 2017 by gorlab