America what the hell!

[Beketov 9,025]

Putting this in the thunderdome because honestly it could get messy.

 

Usually I leave political discussion off the VHL but I really want to try and understand this. What is your aversion to universal healthcare? You're government is pushing through a bill that will destroy premiums for anyone who could afford insurance before and kick off millions of people who can't afford it now. Premiums will either go up or coverage will disappear. You are one of the few Countries IN THE WORLD that does not deem health as a human right. Your love of the free market has allowed insurance companies to completely control you resulting in some of the highest prices and lowest coverage of health care amongst developed nations.

 

So yeah, rant over, but wtf America? What reasoning could you have to justify this.

[Da Trifecta 1,899]

Premiums will drop and granted it doesn't guarantee health care for everyone, not everyone wants health care tbh. With Obumacare, he was FORCING Americans to pay for something they may not even use.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Da Trollfecta

[STZ 5,360]

6 minutes ago, Da Trollfecta said:

to pay for something they may not even use.

 

Isnt that the concept of insurance?

[CowboyinAmerica 2,889]

29 minutes ago, Da Trollfecta said:

Premiums will drop and granted it doesn't guarantee health care for everyone, not everyone wants health care tbh. With Obumacare, he was FORCING Americans to pay for something they may not even use.

 

Rather than write out a long explanation why this doesn't make sense that you won't read, I'll simply ask: What's your source for believing premiums will drop?

[Beketov 9,025]

39 minutes ago, Da Trollfecta said:

Premiums will drop and granted it doesn't guarantee health care for everyone, not everyone wants health care tbh. With Obumacare, he was FORCING Americans to pay for something they may not even use.

Aside from Trump's word (which isn't worth a damn) there is no evidence premiums will drop; at least for the vast majority of people. Pre-existing conditions especially will be nailed. Asthma: $4400 extra. Diabetes: $5000 extra. Oh, and god forbid you get pregnant, that will be an extra $17000.

 

As for the may not even use: everyone will need it eventually, it's just a matter of time. People should not have to be forced to choose between bankruptcy and death which is what a system like this forces. 3 years ago my appendix decided to explode on me. I was freelance so I definitely didn't have money for any coverage and didn't have any through work. In Canada I don't need it (thank god) and only had to pay for my prescriptions out of pocket. In America that surgery, plus the week long hospital stay, would have ruined my credit for life.

 

Plus, like STZ alluded to, the whole point of insurance is paying for something you may not use. I'm legally forced to have tenant and car insurance; I've never used either but that doesn't mean I shouldn't have them.

 

The ACA (which Trump approved off when it was announced, fun fact) allowed you guys to keep your rediculous consumerist viewpoint of buying health insurance while also allowing everyone access to it. Without that you end up with significantly fewer people who "don't want it" and significantly more who simply can't afford to have it. Often times the ones who don't want it are people who can risk paying out of pocket if something happens anyway. All taking away the ACA does is screw the poorest of your nation who actually need it while aiding the pocket books of the rich that can afford whatever is put forth.

[Tyler 885]

If you're against single payer/universal healthcare at this point you're just pure evil. No other word for it.

[Da Trifecta 1,899]

1 hour ago, CowboyinAmerica said:

 

Rather than write out a long explanation why this doesn't make sense that you won't read, I'll simply ask: What's your source for believing premiums will drop?

 

 I mean why would they go up? All Obuma did was make people overpay for something that they didn't necessarily need at all. This should see the drop in premiums due to people being able to buy whatever coverage is needed based off how much money they have.

[Beketov 9,025]

Just now, Da Trollfecta said:

 

 I mean why would they go up? All Obuma did was make people overpay for something that they didn't necessarily need at all. This should see the drop in premiums due to people being able to buy whatever coverage is needed based off how much money they have.

This puts the control back on the insurance companies though, and allows them to charge whatever insane rates they want, especially in regard to pre-existing conditions. The ACA limited the insurance companies so everyone got it but the costs were lower. While what you explain is how it should THEORETICALLY work it isn't how it will work in practice. Without the government oversight insurance companies will massively overcharge (as they always have) because the only option people have is them or nothing. The ACA offered an affordable option.

 

So sure, you won't get more coverage than you want but because the costs will go up (when have insurance companies ever not been greedy) you'll just end up with less coverage at a higher rate.

[Jericho 917]

47 minutes ago, Da Trollfecta said:

 

 I mean why would they go up? All Obuma did was make people overpay for something that they didn't necessarily need at all. This should see the drop in premiums due to people being able to buy whatever coverage is needed based off how much money they have.

 

Do you understand basic economics at all? If there's less people paying into an insurance system the premiums have to go up to cover the cost of the medical care.

 

Oh here's an example someone even as stupid as you could understand! You ever seen Breaking Bad? The entire show takes place between 2005 and 2007, before the Affordable Care Act took place. Walter is diagnosed with cancer and he's paying thousands of dollars per chemo session. The thing with "well I don't want to pay for it because I may not use it" is stupid, because sometimes you just get sick and there was nothing you could have done to avoid it. Everyone pays a little so that nobody can't afford the care they need. That's how every other country in the world does it, and we don't spend thousands of dollars on medical care. Our hospitals aren't a business. We aren't monsters.

[Advantage 2,891]

You always say you don't want it....until you wish you had it.

[Beketov 9,025]

Just now, Advantage said:

You always say you don't want it....until you wish you had it.

Yup

 

I would rather pay a little extra in tax every pay cheque then be worried that if something ever happens to me I'll be in debt forever. Like I said, if not for Canada's health care system I would be either buried in debt or dead. Instead I'm alive and well with an amazing credit score.

[evrydayimbyfuglien 600]

13 minutes ago, Jericho said:

Do you understand basic economics at all? If there's less people paying into an insurance system the premiums have to go up to cover the cost of the medical care.

I was hoping to see this in here, thanks. 

 

Without the healthy people who won't ever use it paying into it, those who do need it will pay what they're paying now plus whatever else to cover the deficit left by the fewer healthy people getting coverage. 

[evrydayimbyfuglien 600]

All I can say is I'll believe it when I see it. 

[Beketov 9,025]

10 minutes ago, Da Trollfecta said:

Sure it seems like things will go up for a couple years, but there after things will come down and be a lot better than they even are now. It's a short term bump for a long term gain therefore afterwards. If you aren't looking at the long term and can't see this clearly, then you have really got to be blind.

What are those long term projections based on though? Nothing I have found shows any reason to believe that prices will come down. Insurance companies will want more overhead because fewer people will be paying them which means they will charge vastly more. The tax credits you mention seem like a great way to mask this as a positive thing. Sure, you're receiving some money back but it's far less than you will be paying in extra. If I owe my insurance company $8000 more than I did before it really doesn't help me much that the government cuts me a cheque for $4000 does it?

 

The bill also removes the ACA's limitation on pre-existing conditions which means that insurers can charge more if people have them: and before you say it the list is pretty extensive regarding what they deem pre-existing conditions to be.

 

Yes, in Canada we have a similar list and it does make it hard for people with them to get extra coverage. However because our healthcare is guaranteed we can get basic coverage that we need without being left with a bill. Meanwhile in the US you can be completely ignored by a coverage provider. That's bad enough for serious stuff but it also allows insurance providers the freedom to deny people insurance over trivial things such as Acne, being overweight, or having kidney stones. You know, things that 90% of people experience at one time or another.

 

Honestly a single payer / universal system is the only logical route for a developed nation. The United States spends more on health care than most countries while simultaneously offering less coverage. That makes absolutely no sense at all. You have a right to own as many firearms as you want but not the right to survive being shot by one. If that's not backwards I don't know what is.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Beketov

[Jericho 917]

1 minute ago, Da Trollfecta said:

 

Apparently you only speak retard so let me dumb down the conversation for your stupid ass for a second.

 

 

 

To me that sounds a lot like things are moving in the right direction. Those in the upper tax brackets will be getting less of help due to this. Their credits will be reduced and I am certain it will be a fairly significant amount. Those tax credits will come in handy on many different occasions as I could only assume that you would understand. Let's also add in:

 

 

Sure it seems like things will go up for a couple years, but there after things will come down and be a lot better than they even are now. It's a short term bump for a long term gain therefore afterwards. If you aren't looking at the long term and can't see this clearly, then you have really got to be blind.

 

 

Was that really your best shot? Ok junior let's go.

 

Yes, giving less to the rich is a nice thing to do, but there is a zero percent chance that a bill that didn't do that would ever get through. People would RIOT in the streets before they let that happen. Those tax credits are being offered in lieu of your current coverage, and that isn't even CLOSE to enough to provide the care some people need. One round of chemo wouldn't be covered by that for example.

 

I agree that insurance premiums would climb, but just because someone says they'd go down, doesn't mean they would. I notice that there hasn't been an explanation given by the party. That's not how economics work. That money has to come from somewhere, and transparency is important. It was really obvious under the Affordable Care Act. Everyone paid into the health insurance pool. and that way those who needed to use it could afford it. Where does that money come from under the new plan?

 

Do you have any reason to believe this system is actually better than what the rest of the world does? Anything other than, "Because the President said so".

[Advantage 2,891]

BTW, nice of Trump to admit Australia (Universal Health Care System) had a better health care system than the United States does.

 

[Da Trifecta 1,899]

5 minutes ago, Jericho said:

 

 

Was that really your best shot? Ok junior let's go.

 

Yes, giving less to the rich is a nice thing to do, but there is a zero percent chance that a bill that didn't do that would ever get through. People would RIOT in the streets before they let that happen. Those tax credits are being offered in lieu of your current coverage, and that isn't even CLOSE to enough to provide the care some people need. One round of chemo wouldn't be covered by that for example.

 

I agree that insurance premiums would climb, but just because someone says they'd go down, doesn't mean they would. I notice that there hasn't been an explanation given by the party. That's not how economics work. That money has to come from somewhere, and transparency is important. It was really obvious under the Affordable Care Act. Everyone paid into the health insurance pool. and that way those who needed to use it could afford it. Where does that money come from under the new plan?

 

Do you have any reason to believe this system is actually better than what the rest of the world does? Anything other than, "Because the President said so".

 

Actually those "rest of the world does" bullshit is just those idiots who are too blind to the real facts. Those shit talking and saying it's bad are the same fools who said "Trump shouldn't be president" and those other things. I like to call them liberals, but however you want to define yourself is on you.

[Advantage 2,891]

1 minute ago, Da Trollfecta said:

 

Actually those "rest of the world does" bullshit is just those idiots who are too blind to the real facts. Those shit talking and saying it's bad are the same fools who said "Trump shouldn't be president" and those other things. I like to call them liberals, but however you want to define yourself is on you.

I mean I'm part of the rest of the world and I'm really enjoying being completely covered just in case something happens.  Can't really speak for "rest of the world" but I would imagine that I'm not alone there.

[Da Trifecta 1,899]

1 minute ago, Advantage said:

I mean I'm part of the rest of the world and I'm really enjoying being completely covered just in case something happens.  Can't really speak for "rest of the world" but I would imagine that I'm not alone there.

 

Canada is non-existent tbh. If we are talking about an American thread, who cares about Canada then.

[Jericho 917]

34 minutes ago, Da Trollfecta said:

 

Actually those "rest of the world does" bullshit is just those idiots who are too blind to the real facts. Those shit talking and saying it's bad are the same fools who said "Trump shouldn't be president" and those other things. I like to call them liberals, but however you want to define yourself is on you.

 

I mean, we covered the use of facts vs opinions the last time we came into this so I won't reiterate.

 

I'm going to blow your mind with something though. Not everyone can be broken down into two categories. You aren't either in full support of the conservative side or the liberal side. When you don't have brain damage you can form your own opinions. For example, you'd probably call both @Beketov and I liberals right? You naturally assume we agree on everything politically. Fun fact, he's a big Hillary supporter and I thought she was the second worst presidential candidate in my life time (behind your boy Donny!)

 

Just because you support one side doesn't mean you have to agree with everything they say or do. I voted liberal in the last Canadian election, but that doesn't mean I follow everything Justin Trudeau says blindly. He was the candidate I agreed the most with, not entirely.

 

Also, which do you think is most likely. That half of America has gotten it right and that the entire rest of the world is blind, or the other way around?

Edited May 5, 2017 by Jericho

[Jericho 917]

Just now, Da Trollfecta said:

 

Canada is non-existent tbh. If we are talking about an American thread, who cares about Canada then.

 

America is irrelevant because their leader is a circus monkey.

 

Both of the above statements have equal value: None.

[BluObieZ 1,125]

I'm American living in Canada and I thank fuck I get canadian healthcare

 

First post back

[Advantage 2,891]

1 minute ago, Da Trollfecta said:

 

Canada is non-existent tbh. If we are talking about an American thread, who cares about Canada then.

Lol...man you are a seriously arrogant piece of shit.

[Advantage 2,891]

5 minutes ago, BobertZ said:

I'm American living in Canada and I thank fuck I get canadian healthcare

 

First post back

Inb4 Tri calls you a traitor.

[Beketov 9,025]

38 minutes ago, Da Trollfecta said:

 

Actually those "rest of the world does" bullshit is just those idiots who are too blind to the real facts. Those shit talking and saying it's bad are the same fools who said "Trump shouldn't be president" and those other things. I like to call them liberals, but however you want to define yourself is on you.

Oh boy I wish I hadn't just accidentally refreshed my page because I feel as if I can't express the anger I just had written, don't worry though, I'll try.

 

What facts are we blind to? Please, enlighten me. The facts as I see it are the facts we have presented. Meanwhile, you have simply spouted back the rhetoric of a sociopathic liar. So please, explain to me how universal health care is flawed. Your boy Donny praised the Aussie version of it just this week (LINK) and has claimed several times that he's in favour of universal health care and a liberal when it comes to health care (LINK TO JUST A FEW OF THEM)

 

Also, you use the word liberal as if it's a dirty word. I will gladly be called a liberal, any day of the week, bring it on. If being a liberal means I give a rats ass about my fellow man then I kindly accept it. Since you clearly don't know anything about how our health care runs let me explain it to you. I pay a few dollars extra in tax every pay so that myself, and every Canadian, has access to medical services when they need it. So does everyone else, that's how the cost stays low, because it's spread over millions. Will I ever need that health care? Maybe, maybe not, but it's there and I'm happy to keep paying for it. Even if Iived to be 100 and never once visited a hospital I would still be more than happy to have paid it. Not because I needed it but because perhaps my family did, perhaps my friends did, or my neighbours, or just anyone. That's not being foolish or a "liberal" (if you want to use that as some horrible slur) it's called having human compassion. I don't want to have other people suffer because I wanted to keep a few extra dollars in my pocket. The ideology that you would rather your fellow Americans suffer because you don't want to pay a little every pay cheque for them is mind-blowing. In total my health care costs account for less than 6% of my income; take a look at American costs and see if you can say that.

 

So go ahead, call me a liberal, call me whatever you damn well please. But every other developed country in the world has realized that the health of it's citizens should come before the profits of it's richest. America apparently has not received the memo. I look forward to seeing how you defend that.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Beketov