The Great League File Debate [Formerly S65 VHLM Index]

[Beketov 9,021]

15 minutes ago, majesiu said:

You need the league file to be able to test, you won't be able to do it from the client file you get from the index. I think you confused the paragraphs before where it was talked that you don't need paid license to test, as it's needed only to save results. 

 

As for screenshots offer, thank you very much, but pass - I don't care too much about it and don't have time to manually check stuff comparing to the images - and I even doubt there is anything wrong going on, I'm just used to leagues being as transparent as possible league files.

I'm not sure what @Esso2264 was referring to then because he said free client. The client is the only thing that's free on the STHS site. File or not I don't recall being able to open the main application without a license; though maybe I'm crazy.

 

I guess I just don't understand what transparency is wanted. I'm not trying to hide anything, I'm trying to potentially protect us. If there's a transparency concern I'll address it but I don't believe that has ever been a concern here.

[Beketov 9,021]

Anyway, do  @VHLM GM's want a few exhibition games as a pre-season? Like I said, the schedule is made so there's no real getting around the fact that a real pre-season doesn't exist. Exhibition games aren't perfect, their stats won't save and you won't get 1 against everyone, but I can get a few done. Maybe like 4 games per team over 2 days? At least it'll give you some idea before the season starts.

 

Honestly I think part of the reason the VHLM doesn't get one is because the rosters and TPE amounts change so drastically that it proves even less in the minors than it does in the VHL but if you guys really want something I can do something.

[Peace 1,525]

7 minutes ago, Beketov said:

Anyway, do  @VHLM GM's want a few exhibition games as a pre-season? Like I said, the schedule is made so there's no real getting around the fact that a real pre-season doesn't exist. Exhibition games aren't perfect, their stats won't save and you won't get 1 against everyone, but I can get a few done. Maybe like 4 games per team over 2 days? At least it'll give you some idea before the season starts.

 

Honestly I think part of the reason the VHLM doesn't get one is because the rosters and TPE amounts change so drastically that it proves even less in the minors than it does in the VHL but if you guys really want something I can do something.

If it's not a huge problem, I'd enjoy the luxury, but don't demand it. 

I do have to make some adjustments to my lineup once a player update file has been ran, but otherwise - as is - I think I have the most optimal lineup for Saskatoon. 

[McWolf 3,115]

Whatever really. Don't do it if it's a hassle. There never was any in the M and I'm fine with it really

[Eudaldkp 160]

34 minutes ago, McWolf said:

Whatever really. Don't do it if it's a hassle. There never was any in the M and I'm fine with it really

Samesies, although players might like it to distract themselves

[Jubo 1,839]

No need for pre-season in my perspective. With how often players update their TPE; sims early on are hardly worth anything.

[BladeMaiden 1,807]

I mean I obviously think it would be somewhat useful at least for us new GMs. I’m not going to try to argue with the GMs here, we have greatly oppsing veiws about what is part of being a gm and it is obvious. My vote is for something to get my  players excited at the very least. didn’t think i’d be starting world war three asking for a preseason and a sim file. Anyways my opinion has remained the same, take that for what it is.

Edited February 27, 2019 by BladeMaiden

[Beketov 9,021]

21 minutes ago, BladeMaiden said:

I mean I obviously think it would be somewhat useful at least for us new GMs. I’m not going to try to argue with the GMs here, we have greatly oppsing veiws about what is part of being a gm and it is obvious. My vote is for something to get my  players excited at the very least. didn’t think i’d be starting world war three asking for a preseason and a sim file. Anyways my opinion jad remained the same, take that for what it is.

How about I give you 1/2 then. I’ll do a few exhibition games per team as pre-season since we’re waiting for the VHL anyway but I’m not going to release the league file.

[BladeMaiden 1,807]

22 minutes ago, Beketov said:

How about I give you 1/2 then. I’ll do a few exhibition games per team as pre-season since we’re waiting for the VHL anyway but I’m not going to release the league file.

Ok let me straighten this out there is no 1/2 here . In my mind some exhibition games are your gift to all these new awesome members for joing, not me personally. You’re discision to withhold the league file is at the very least questionable. I am not the type of person to accept the answer, this is the way we have always done it. Things change and need to continue to develop.At this point you can see I don’t find your consessions to be adiquate but at least this way my players will be happier even if i am greatly dissatisfied with your response but that seems to be becoming a pattern between us. 

[Josh 1,665]

Umm, how is this in a public forum? At least y'all didn't lose your goalie lol.

 

My point of view: don't care about the test sims, don't care about the pre-season. Carry on.

 

 

[Beketov 9,021]

Just now, BladeMaiden said:

Ok let me straighten this out there is no 1/2 here . In my mind some exhibition games are your gift to all these new awesome members for joing, not me personally. You’re discision to withhold the league file is at the very least questionable. I am not the type of person to accept the answer, this is the way we have always done it. Things change and need to continue to develop.At this point you can see I don’t find your consessions to be adiquate but at least this way my players will be happier even if i am greatly dissatisfied with your response but that seems to be becoming a pattern between us. 

 

Questionable on what grounds?

 

I've explained my reasoning. Whether it's just being paranoid or not I do not want league files, which are the basis for everything we do in this league, to be floating around unnecessarily. If the only reason you want it is so that you can gain an advantage over another GM that doesn't have a teammate with STHS that isn't a good enough reason for me to risk things. I can promise you that with the speed that things change in the VHLM and the amount of line changes everyone makes you will gain no tactical advantage by running test sims. So at the end of the day even if it's minor we're risking the integrity of the very basis that the league runs on for you to gain a minor (at best) advantage. I'm not going to do that.

 

You wanted a pre-season you'll get one but you'll need a better reason than test simming if you want the league file.

[Peace 1,525]

Thanks for the pre-season, Bek, I'm also happy your keeping the league files behind closed doors. 

Honestly though, can we all just shut the fuck up and send it updated lines now that we have the option? 

Lock thread? [Y] N

[Beketov 9,021]

Just now, Peace said:

Lock thread? [Y] N

We don't lock index threads, they are kinda important, thus the problem. I might go through and hide some stuff though.

[Peace 1,525]

Just now, Beketov said:

We don't lock index threads, they are kinda important, thus the problem. I might go through and hide some stuff though.

FOR THE NEXT TWENTY FOUR HOURS...

Purge! 

[eaglesfan036 4,598]

well theres 9 vhl teams and 8 vhlm teams so that's 17 people who would have the file
then everyone wants an AGM so maybe it's 34 people who have the file
then people quit GMing but still have the file so even more people have it
way too many cooks in the kitchen
plenty of people have been hired who would not be a good thing to be in possession of the file like Robbie, Boubabi, and Anderson
 

[Enorama 2,038]

9 minutes ago, Beketov said:

 

Questionable on what grounds?

 

I've explained my reasoning. Whether it's just being paranoid or not I do not want league files, which are the basis for everything we do in this league, to be floating around unnecessarily. If the only reason you want it is so that you can gain an advantage over another GM that doesn't have a teammate with STHS that isn't a good enough reason for me to risk things. I can promise you that with the speed that things change in the VHLM and the amount of line changes everyone makes you will gain no tactical advantage by running test sims. So at the end of the day even if it's minor we're risking the integrity of the very basis that the league runs on for you to gain a minor (at best) advantage. I'm not going to do that.

 

You wanted a pre-season you'll get one but you'll need a better reason than test simming if you want the league file.

 

What could someone do with the league file that would negatively affect the league?

 

Honestly asking, not trying to light this thread on fire again.

[Enorama 2,038]

Just now, eaglesfan036 said:

well theres 9 vhl teams and 8 vhlm teams so that's 17 people who would have the file
then everyone wants an AGM so maybe it's 34 people who have the file
then people quit GMing but still have the file so even more people have it
way too many cooks in the kitchen
plenty of people have been hired who would not be a good thing to be in possession of the file like Robbie, Boubabi, and Anderson
 

 

Nice C&P from your discord message  

[BladeMaiden 1,807]

3 minutes ago, Beketov said:

 

Questionable on what grounds?

 

I've explained my reasoning. Whether it's just being paranoid or not I do not want league files, which are the basis for everything we do in this league, to be floating around unnecessarily. If the only reason you want it is so that you can gain an advantage over another GM that doesn't have a teammate with STHS that isn't a good enough reason for me to risk things. I can promise you that with the speed that things change in the VHLM and the amount of line changes everyone makes you will gain no tactical advantage by running test sims. So at the end of the day even if it's minor we're risking the integrity of the very basis that the league runs on for you to gain a minor (at best) advantage. I'm not going to do that.

 

You wanted a pre-season you'll get one but you'll need a better reason than test simming if you want the league file.

You have explained and I already told you i find your reasons to be inadequate at best. Starting out as a new GM i have no clue how the sim will react to my lines or how the adjustmenting the file will affect my team. So forgive me if i want some solid information and experience before I start my season. Also your paranoia about the sim file is not a real reason to withhold it, seems like a you issue. What information  could you possibly have on that sim file that is worth being this tight fisted over. I am unwilling to drop this issue, because i have yet to be given a reason i find good enough to drop it. 

That being said I’ll thank you on behalf of my players as they have something to look forward to in this down time. 

[Peace 1,525]

Thing about YOU finding the answer inadaquate is - ironically - also a you problem, Blade. I feel like you should have been less focused on getting higher AGM positions and actually taken a AGM spot that taught you to be a GM. @Sonnet knew very little about STHS and now he knows enough to comfortably draft, send lines, understand the sim and more because he took a spot on a team and learned how to do things the proper way. 

 

Now you have a trial trial by fire and it makes you nervous. If you weren’t ready to be a GM on VHL - which includes knowing more about the sim and how it functions - than perhaps you should have stayed a VHLM AGM and gotten that experience first hand.

 

I won’t pretend to know what Beaviss taught you though, but part of the identity of VHL is how the two leagues are simmed. No one in the VHL is asking right now, just saying. 

 

Part of being a GM is reacting to some lopsided scores, and that’s coming from someone who takes this league - as many have said in the Discord - very seriously. 

Edited February 27, 2019 by Peace

[Beketov 9,021]

21 minutes ago, Enorama said:

 

What could someone do with the league file that would negatively affect the league?

 

Honestly asking, not trying to light this thread on fire again.

 

9 minutes ago, BladeMaiden said:

What information  could you possibly have on that sim file that is worth being this tight fisted over.

 

Some GM Emails are in there though that's easy enough to remove and not my main concern. My main concern would be the potential to completely alter our sim results. All the results STHS outputs are uploaded to a server and then displayed here via the portal. There's a couple of points of entry there for people to get in and mess with the files. It would be extreme but so was DDOSing our site which has happened. We've burned bridges before. Anyway, I digress. Without the league file hacking into our server wouldn't get you much but the ability to delete things; we have backups to safeguard against that. However those backups don't run constantly. With the file someone could completely change the outcome of every game and every season being uploaded. They could completely mess with player stats and attributes and alter how the game is played or mess with the sliders and alter how the engine behaves.

 

Is any of this likely? No. However it's a possibility. As @eaglesfan036 pointed out it's just too many hands in the pot; even ignoring the chance that the file gets corrupt at some point in the process which could easily happen. In a 72 game season with constantly changing lines and rosters I would say there is plenty of time to adjust lines and strategies (as there always has been) without the need to run test sims that ultimately account for nothing. If that is the only reason anyone would need the file it doesn't seem sufficient enough for me when ultimately there are much bigger things at risk, even if they are minor chances.

 

If GM's really feel the need to test things before the season starts they can send me a few test lines and some opponents they'd like to test against and I'll run some tests for them if they ask nicely. I honestly don't think it'll tell them much but I'm not comfortable giving the league file away, it's simply too important.

 

19 minutes ago, Josh. said:

@Beketov Justin Cole was called up but is still in the index. Please never read this message and leave him there. 

Too late, already read it.

[Enorama 2,038]

1 minute ago, Beketov said:

 

 

Some GM Emails are in there though that's easy enough to remove and not my main concern. My main concern would be the potential to completely alter our sim results. All the results STHS outputs are uploaded to a server and then displayed here via the portal. There's a couple of points of entry there for people to get in and mess with the files. It would be extreme but so was DDOSing our site which has happened. We've burned bridges before. Anyway, I digress. Without the league file hacking into our server wouldn't get you much but the ability to delete things; we have backups to safeguard against that. However those backups don't run constantly. With the file someone could completely change the outcome of every game and every season being uploaded. They could completely mess with player stats and attributes and alter how the game is played or mess with the sliders and alter how the engine behaves.

 

 

I might be confused about what the league file really is, but couldn't you just upload a read-only copy for people to download and mess around with? It would force them to save their own copy. There's ways to layer protections like that using Google Drive for sure and I bet you could do the same with Dropbox or otherwise.

 

[Esso2264 774]

with the free unlicensed version you can't save

[SlashACM 38]

@majesiu actually knows a thing or two about Simon T so he knows that giving out the league file presents absolutely no risk. All of you guys are pointing out "GMs change things so often anyway so why even have the league file" just prove my point, what is the harm in giving it out? GMs want to test their own lines with at least semi accurate ratings and lines and you'd rather them just eyeball it. Sounds like less smart GMing and more luck tbh

[Beketov 9,021]

2 minutes ago, Enorama said:

 

I might be confused about what the league file really is, but couldn't you just upload a read-only copy for people to download and mess around with? It would force them to save their own copy. There's ways to layer protections like that using Google Drive for sure and I bet you could do the same with Dropbox or otherwise.

 

It's not a matter of saving over the file I'm concerned about. I have a copy of that, Dropbox has a copy of that, and the other simmers have a Copy of that. It's overwriting and changing our actually output files on the server. Also, even if we could make the file read only it would then become useless since GM's wouldn't be able to change any of their lines in the file.

 

2 minutes ago, Esso2264 said:

with the free unlicensed version you can't save

But there's no way to lock the file to only unlicensed versions. Licensing is easy.

 

2 minutes ago, SlashACM said:

@majesiu actually knows a thing or two about Simon T so he knows that giving out the league file presents absolutely no risk. All of you guys are pointing out "GMs change things so often anyway so why even have the league file" just prove my point, what is the harm in giving it out? GMs want to test their own lines with at least semi accurate ratings and lines and you'd rather them just eyeball it. Sounds like less smart GMing and more luck tbh

If you read my post you'd understand my concern isn't about the file itself, it's about what it can be done with it after the fact. They may be mostly unfounded but I'd rather reduce our potential risks rather than create them.

[SlashACM 38]

2 minutes ago, Enorama said:

 

I might be confused about what the league file really is, but couldn't you just upload a read-only copy for people to download and mess around with? It would force them to save their own copy. There's ways to layer protections like that using Google Drive for sure and I bet you could do the same with Dropbox or otherwise.

 

Basically with the client file they have you can set lines and that's pretty much it. You can't set schedules or mess around with anything else, for that you need the .sth file that simmers use. I will stand my ground and say there is absolutely no risk in releasing this to GMs who want to mess around with lines and find something that works for them. The only risk is GMs who don't think it is worth them time might find themselves on the outside looking in