I'm tired

[Beowoof 13]

I'm so tired of all of SBA vs. VHL nonsense. To be honest, I probably shouldn't even be typing this up, but I'm just so sick of it.

 

For anyone not aware, I'm a member of the BoD (or BoG here). I'm doing this on my own and does not reflect anything "official" by the SBA, so please do not use it out of context. This is my own personal experience.

 

This issue keeps resurfacing, and every time it does I just get so mad for no reason at the amount of misinformation.

 

I understand that this league is the one primarily affected, but I think the original intent behind cutting affiliation has been lost and is now an "us vs. them" or a "holier than thou" mindset. I'd like to give a timeline of what I have experienced in order to hopefully clear some confusion.

 

Some time ago, several leagues decided to allow certain users (mostly admins of each league + simmer + anyone else doing a lot of league work) to automatically claim 12 points in the other leagues in order to increase enjoyment of leagues overall for these users since they dedicate so much time to their primary league. I genuinely don't know too much about hockey, but the other SBA admins were into it, so I tagged along. We joined up on Houston as that team could sign all of us. I was mostly a system player since I don't know the league or the sport very well, but I was still having a good time. We actually made it to the championship, which I guess isn't a huge surprise when a lot of the team were auto claiming 12. 

Then comes the championship and I'm not going to remind every body of what happened. If you want my opinion on the matter looking back, I think we went about the things the wrong way (especially as admins in a different league). I don't know if the public thread was the best way to go about it, but it's the path we did in the moment. That isn't to say that I personally liked the response from the staff. Regardless, what happened happened. 

 

I want to interject here that there is definitely a culture difference between this league and the SBA, and that's fine. We do in fact try monitor language for anything that we consider intolerant of certain things (religion, gender, orientation, etc.). Things here are, or were,  a little different, and if that is the way that the league wants to be run, then that's fine. We aren't here to police that, nor do we want to. Again, we aren't saying we are better than you, but that's how it keeps coming off every time this resurfaces. Simply put, we didn't feel comfortable affiliating with a league that had such a community. That's really it. It's unfortunate that members are technically caught in the crossfire, but we aren't trying to punish anyone. It's difficult to try and have a league that monitors tolerance while simultaneously saying "check out this league that has an anything goes policy!" I really want to say one final time that that is in no way trying to say that we are better or whatever. It's just a different way of running things.

 

From this point, since we didn't like the response that we got, we decided to look a bit further into the community here and I think you guys understand most of the rest of it. But we did not ever do this before the conclusion of the finals. We were never keeping a tally on things, it was all after the fact. I keep seeing everywhere that we've just been waiting for a moment to end affiliation, but that just plainly isn't the case.

 

The rest of everything including the back and forth between Bek and E/Mo is not my portion of the story that I want to tell.

 

So like I said, this is my own personal experience, and I hope that at the very least if anyone wants to discuss my experience that it can be approached rationally.

[Gustav 6,407]

18 minutes ago, Beowoof said:

I think the original intent behind cutting affiliation has been lost and is now an "us vs. them" or a "holier than thou" mindset.

 

This is absolutely true, and in my opinion it's more or less true on both sides.

 

Thanks for the insight, hopefully this thread generates some meaningful discussion rather than people just throwing insults at each other.

[Devise 4,475]

I can say I echo and respect a lot of your sentiments. I do not know when or how it turned into "us vs them" but having seen the chat logs between Emidas and Bek, I can also clearly state you guys never really brought a solution to the table. It was, very evidently our intention to keep all of it behind the scenes. But as things escalated, as some of our select members you mentioned cause problems that in your mind taints our overall community. But there very much felt to me, to be an aspect in the dealings that came across as if the SBA side didn't want to be seen as targeting specific members. That is all fine and well, but when the conversation goes past what the league was and continues to be doing to try to improve our culture, left with no other argument as to why affiliation made sense SBA members did bring up and target specific members. Nobody was told to be outright fired, but such members were then linked and used to scapegoat our entire communities reputation. 

I think it would of benefited the SBA side to just be more upfront about what they wanted, and what type of change they would of liked to have saw in order for affiliation to make sense. Even if that was a change we weren't capable of, fine their would of been no more need for politics of trying to frame the argument in a way that makes one side look better than the other. We had no problem admitting our wrong, I feel like. We admitted we had toxic community issues, we admitted we had members with problems. That wasn't done just to appease the SBA, obviously but also because we agreed you were right. So I have to agree, considering we saw the changes you guys made, and decided to take similar although less drastic measures of our own, it very much felt like good footing to continue an open and honest relationship. But the attitude that came across from your guys end after that appeared to us to be that because our measures weren't as drastic as yours, and because we allowed members ways to "cheat the system" I believe were Molholts exact framing when it comes to offensive language ergo putting in things like "oh your a big thing I can't say" as examples of skirting the system."  While I personally don't see any taste in messages even like that, obviously the leagues differ in regards to what we let other members get away with in that regard. 

 

Which pretty much brings us to this standstill. Coupled with select members here, who given our more lax standards even still when it comes to a matter of opinion, are allowed to express their continued frustrations with the SBA's more drastic policies (in their eyes) as I mention. For me personally, I just don't see why Molholt or anyone in question can't see the nuance in that a select group of members here who have been burned by the SBA or have negative opinions of it do not make the bulk of our sites opinion of yours. We have plenty of joint members, and plenty of members who also sing their praises. If any of your naysayers wants to get smart or too trolly, they can and have been punished. Even if those punishments are mutings, or temporary, I guess I feel it still sends a strong enough message on our end that we as a league absolutely respect the SBA and it's staff, regardless if everyone on our site all had drama free dealings with them. 

[a_Ferk 766]

1 hour ago, Beowoof said:

I'm so tired of all of SBA vs. VHL nonsense.

 

Hi so tired of all of SBA vs. VHL nonsense, I'm dad.

[Beketov 9,025]

8 hours ago, Beowoof said:

I'm so tired of all of SBA vs. VHL nonsense.

You and me both.

[Viper 530]

8 hours ago, a_Ferk said:

 

Hi so tired of all of SBA vs. VHL nonsense, I'm dad.

got em

[Enorama 2,038]

14 hours ago, Beowoof said:

but we aren't trying to punish anyone.

 

punish me Beo  

[Doomsday 4,130]

If it's not the intention to punish members, then you could allow members of the VHL on the SBA to claim VHL point tasks. But you've already answered that question: you have a problem with our community, so you don't want those members there. That's fine, you're allowed to think/feel that. I'd just prefer that you be up front about it, instead of acting like this is some unfortunate and terrible incident. 

[Tagger 2,722]

20 hours ago, Beowoof said:

From this point, since we didn't like the response that we got, we decided to look a bit further into the community here and I think you guys understand most of the rest of it. But we did not ever do this before the conclusion of the finals. We were never keeping a tally on things, it was all after the fact. I keep seeing everywhere that we've just been waiting for a moment to end affiliation, but that just plainly isn't the case.

 

I'm still confused on this point since a post from Evans (another BOD member) suggests the complete opposite to this took place:

 

Quote

This is not an isolate incident in the VHL and we are not reacting to just the most recent instance of this. This has been a situation we have monitored for quite some time. This most recent thread was just the straw that broke the camel's back. 

 

I don't know if Evans just illustrated his thoughts incorrectly, but I think that post played a significant part in why the "SBA were looking for reasons to get out" message came about and subsequently spread.

 

 

 

[Beketov 9,025]

17 minutes ago, Tagger said:

 

I don't know if Evans just illustrated his thoughts incorrectly, but I think that post played a significant part in why the "SBA were looking for reasons to get out" message came about and subsequently spread.

In the interest of fairness that is the first thing @emidas and I talked about. According to what he told me, Evans misspoke about matters he wasn’t clear on.

[Beowoof 13]

19 hours ago, Devise said:

we allowed members ways to "cheat the system" I believe were Molholts exact framing when it comes to offensive language ergo putting in things like "oh your a big thing I can't say" as examples of skirting the system."  While I personally don't see any taste in messages even like that, obviously the leagues differ in regards to what we let other members get away with in that regard. 

From my perspective, it is cheating the system. The point of stopping intolerant slurs of any kind is so that members affected by said slurs don't feel unwelcome. Saying something akin to "don't be so...oh I can't say that word" still does that because we can obviously fill in the gap of what they were trying to say. And honestly it's even worse to me when SBA was used so frequently instead. I get that the internet is full of memes and jokes in this day and age, but with everything predominantly over text it's extremely difficult to get any connotation. I'm not just speaking from our side either, but from the perspective of a new member seeing something like that. As a hypothetical would you rather drive a member away due to the "cheating"? Or would you rather three people not get a chance to make a joke?

Obviously I'm not asking for any change, just offering my own perspective.

 

3 hours ago, Doomsday said:

If it's not the intention to punish members, then you could allow members of the VHL on the SBA to claim VHL point tasks. But you've already answered that question: you have a problem with our community, so you don't want those members there. That's fine, you're allowed to think/feel that. I'd just prefer that you be up front about it, instead of acting like this is some unfortunate and terrible incident. 

I think you missed my point about why it was cut off. It's not a punishment. We didn't feel comfortable allowing PTs claimable in our league when the community was the way it was because that diminished how we've moderated things. 

[Doomsday 4,130]

19 minutes ago, Beowoof said:

I think you missed my point about why it was cut off. It's not a punishment. We didn't feel comfortable allowing PTs claimable in our league when the community was the way it was because that diminished how we've moderated things. 

 

The thing about punishments is that it doesn't need to be intended to be a punishment in order for it to be one. There are members there who have done nothing to you or the SBA community, yet you insist on denying them the ability to claim point tasks they've done here. I for one am not doing multiple point tasks with the amount of work I put in here, which straight-up keeps me from joining. Surely I am not the only VHL member that is being dissuaded from joining, or remaining active, by this decision your BoD has made. A decision our BoG, it should be noted, was not made in order to not punish members of your community that wished to be active here. 

 

You can say it's not a punishment all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that that's exactly what it is to members of the VHL there. 

[Beowoof 13]

On 4/11/2020 at 7:30 PM, Doomsday said:

 

The thing about punishments is that it doesn't need to be intended to be a punishment in order for it to be one. There are members there who have done nothing to you or the SBA community, yet you insist on denying them the ability to claim point tasks they've done here. I for one am not doing multiple point tasks with the amount of work I put in here, which straight-up keeps me from joining. Surely I am not the only VHL member that is being dissuaded from joining, or remaining active, by this decision your BoD has made. A decision our BoG, it should be noted, was not made in order to not punish members of your community that wished to be active here. 

 

You can say it's not a punishment all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that that's exactly what it is to members of the VHL there. 

I understand what you are saying, and I obviously don't 100% disagree, but it was the decision we made at the time. You could say it was a rather rash decision, but it's in the past and it's much easier to judge after the fact.

 

So if you were fully in our shoes, I'm curious, but what would you have done differently?

[Doomsday 4,130]

15 minutes ago, Beowoof said:

I understand what you are saying, and I obviously don't 100% disagree, but it was the decision we made at the time. You could say it was a rather rash decision, but it's in the past and it's much easier to judge after the fact.

 

So if you were fully in our shoes, I'm curious, but what would you have done differently?

 

You stated it yourself: a rash decision was made. A rash decision that, as you have noted yourself, has had unintended consequences. That's what happens when decisions are made without stopping to think about what could happen. 

 

I was not here at the time it happened, but it is something I have read up on. From the get-go, it was obvious that the SBA side made no attempt to make the situation any better. All that accomplished was both sides fanning the flames back and forth at each other. The thread should have been locked sooner, forcing both sides to break off, cool down, then come back together and discuss it with cooler heads. It's something that still doesn't appear to have happened. From the very first comment made by Molholt, it never seemed like reconciliation was an option on his mind. That simply can't be if there is any compromise to be made. We have done all that we can, but this is a two-way street. We need that same effort back instead of being immediately shut down without being listened to. 

[okochastar 97]

On 4/11/2020 at 6:52 AM, Devise said:

But as things escalated, as some of our select members you mentioned cause problems that in your mind taints our overall community.

 

Isn't that obviously idiotic and if someone brings that up they are clearly mistaken, cannot read, and/or have not interacted with more than a handful of VHL people? I don't see a lot of that happening in either direction in the current day (months ago it used to ride both ways). I guess there is a difficult nuance in calling ie. Nyko, DaaD and Dil "those VHL dumbasses" and outright stating "VHL is a bunch of dumbasses."

 

I don't really care which way anyone sways on the issue but I feel like there's a select number of people whiteknighting for their leagues for nothing, since they aren't in administrative positions and the announcement threads in both leagues are not exactly meant to be public discussion threads. It's literally nothing but a puny dick-swinging contest at this point and I would be surprised if anyone is stupid enough to feel like they've gained the upper hand in the arguments. Prime example of it is when in the thread the other day it became a weird public spat between beketov and molholt, nothing was resolved and no one gained anything.

 

I don't like Enorama or Devise or Jubo any less because they are VHL members and the affiliation was discontinued in dramatic fashion. I don't think no one could justifiably argue that what happened in the vhlm finals thread shouldn't(??) reflect poorly on the "overall community", but it's definitely not some sort of a disease that now colors literally every user. There are some users that take part in the whiteknighting every single chance they get (examples from the SBA too), but that's their fight.

Edited April 13, 2020 by okochastar

[Enorama 2,038]

12 minutes ago, okochastar said:

I don't like Enorama

 

 

 

 

[Devise 4,475]

@okochastar You raise some excellent points in your post. I should clarify that I'm not trying to white knight the VHL. My posts even in the public announcement thread were not meant to call out the SBA and champion the VHL. But because of the circumstances, there were members here who needed to know we weren't just going to leave them behind or play politics with another league to determine the fate of members reputation here. 

 

The whole reason this argument actually boiled over in the public space is largely because the SBA couldn't keep their story straight. We were reacting to communications from Emidas, speaking on behalf of Molholt and then getting second hand stories of what things were from other members, such as Evans. We were later informed that members such as Evans weren't speaking with the authority they had. Even more than that, Molholt flat out denied that the messages from Emidas on behalf of him were even coming from him. Which is tough when one of those messages literally targets one member and says no relationship will ever come while said member is in their current prominent position. We're meant to put water under the bridge for every miscommunication error that comes across on their end all the while every little transgression one of our members makes gets repeatedly thrown back in our face. 

 

If it's water under the bridge, that means it's for both sides. Even still, it's super unprofessional to not be all on the same page when discussing through drama and issues like this. Regardless of personal feelings on the issue, our entire BoG was shown the chat logs and made aware of the exact step by step of this process to avoid these miscommunication issues that it's very clear the SBA had. It's a big reason why so many of us here have been confounded by what it is the SBA wanted to re-affiliate, or if they were even open, because there was nothing straight forward about these communications. It's unfortunate that I have to state this in such a way that somehow comes across as if the SBA was being unprofessional and we weren't, because it's not like we've never been unprofessional or that we weren't wrong in many regards here. I have freely admitted our toxic community issues previously as has many of us. There are members who still say things on our Discord that I'm not comfortable with, but I also admit that what's considered comfortable in either league shouldn't be up to one person. Our collective group has decided what we are okay with, as has the SBA's. It's very easy to be upfront and state that the SBA wasn't comfortable with what our community decided it's tolerances levels were without ever bringing up any specific members or issues. If it was clearly the only problem then there shouldn't of been so much of a run around from the SBA front. The chat logs show a distinct hostility from the SBA side towards us that I don't think a lot of people really give credit too. Blow ups, or tantrums from Molholts end (according to Emidas) were there. None of that happened on our side from the staff or associated members dealing with it, at least not until Bek hit his wits end, but now Quik has taken over negotiations on that front. 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Devise

[okochastar 97]

32 minutes ago, Devise said:

@okochastar 

 

I'm sorry if you thought I was singling you out or even thought I was pointing at you. My view is that you've more taken part on this last week's current conversation and aren't doing any unnecessary whiteknighting or instigating. Either way, thanks for sharing your thoughts, I guess?

[Devise 4,475]

Just now, okochastar said:

 

I'm sorry if you thought I was singling you out or even thought I was pointing at you. My view is that you've more taken part on this last week's current conversation and aren't doing any unnecessary whiteknighting or instigating. Either way, thanks for sharing your thoughts, I guess?

 

That is fair, wasn't trying to implicate being targeted with my response to you. But I appreciate the certainty on the subject. I just feel as posts like this continue to come out we owe it to our league to be as transparent about this process as possible, especially because we do have members who like to stir the pot here and regrettably in other leagues. Regardless of the SBA issues some of us feel it's on us to be more open in the public space so that the stir the pot minority doesn't come across as the only people talking about other leagues, our affiliates etc. 

[Gustav 6,407]

I think one thing to note is that a decent amount--certainly not all, but a decent amount--of what was going on before has cooled down. Even with the thread last week going up and escalating into a shitshow, I found it a pleasant surprise how few trolls we had popping up in there. It certainly wasn't like the initial SBA thread back in November when multiple people with decent status in this community were coming in and dropping the r-word and telling the SBA to go buy a pack of tampons and such.

 

This thread is the first example of an entire thread on the matter that's pretty civilized--let's keep it that way. Even those of us who aren't at the top of the VHL are still representatives of the VHL, and, as we've seen, have the ability to reflect poorly on the community. Well done to those here who have managed to respectfully disagree, a virtue that should certainly have been aimed for by many people (myself included) much sooner.