GMs - WHAT ARE YOU DOING?

[v.2 1,406]

tl;dr but I already know these issues are somehow a result of the E's existence.

Edited January 26, 2023 by v.2

[Beketov 9,033]

5 minutes ago, v.2 said:

tl;dr but I already know these issues are somehow a result of the E's existence.

Let’s be honest that would be your take on anything g no matter what.

[v.2 1,406]

Just read the first screenshot.  Turns out I'm right lol.

[Daniel Janser 2,184]

59 minutes ago, v.2 said:

Just read the first screenshot.  Turns out I'm right lol.

So are we ignoring the fact then that this player has spent one or more seasons in one or more VHLM teams and has apparently not been shown the ropes either, by GMs whose declared job it is to do exactly that? While it is true that the E GM could have been more proactive, I can see why it was not picked up.

 

I mean as a college professor you would expect your students to know that 1+1 = 2 and not having to start from scratch again. 

[Spartan 4,408]

1 hour ago, Daniel Janser said:

So are we ignoring the fact then that this player has spent one or more seasons in one or more VHLM teams and has apparently not been shown the ropes either, by GMs whose declared job it is to do exactly that? While it is true that the E GM could have been more proactive, I can see why it was not picked up.

 

I mean as a college professor you would expect your students to know that 1+1 = 2 and not having to start from scratch again. 

We've been open about this and have said a few times, even by Gus in the main post in this thread, that we've brought this up with our GM's to reinforce expectations and offer guidance and resources to avoid the issue in the future. If we don't see improvement, we're not shy about making changes.

[Ricer13 2,796]

Cut GM job pay back to 2 tpe  

[Daniel Janser 2,184]

1 minute ago, Spartan said:

We've been open about this and have said a few times, even by Gus in the main post in this thread, that we've brought this up with our GM's to reinforce expectations and offer guidance and resources to avoid the issue in the future. If we don't see improvement, we're not shy about making changes.

I did not mean point fingers at anyone (even though re-reading my post certainly can give this impression). 

[Spartan 4,408]

3 minutes ago, Ricer13 said:

Cut GM job pay back to 2 tpe  

Recruitment first

[Lemorse7 1,016]

I sear those GM smh 

[Spartan 4,408]

2 minutes ago, Daniel Janser said:

I did not mean point fingers at anyone (even though re-reading my post certainly can give this impression). 

I mean we've pointed fingers certainly, and I have no issue with it. But none of the GM's who covered the player in question for this thread are still GM'S in the M. 81 LVA saw a transition mid-season due to a CoC punishment and the player was traded mid-season to a GM who quit immediately after the season. 82 PHI was the last season iirc for a GM who was having technology issues and then stepped down due to not being able to perform their duties. Seems a lot like unfortunate timing for this player, but the overall point that every GM needs to do better is still valid.

[Ricer13 2,796]

5 minutes ago, Spartan said:

Recruitment first

Atleast we try to recruit. 

[Daniel Janser 2,184]

3 minutes ago, Spartan said:

I mean we've pointed fingers certainly, and I have no issue with it. But none of the GM's who covered the player in question for this thread are still GM'S in the M. 81 LVA saw a transition mid-season due to a CoC punishment and the player was traded mid-season to a GM who quit immediately after the season. 82 PHI was the last season iirc for a GM who was having technology issues and then stepped down due to not being able to perform their duties. Seems a lot like unfortunate timing for this player, but the overall point that every GM needs to do better is still valid.

gotcha thanks for the background. Yeah seems it was very unfortunate timing for this particular player. 

[MubbleFubbles 1,290]

9 minutes ago, Spartan said:

81 LVA saw a transition mid-season due to a CoC punishment and the player was traded mid-season to a GM who quit immediately after the season. 

It's actually the other way around, they were traded to us at the deadline. As one of their GMs during this period, this thread came as a surprise because we'd received both PM and discord confirmation from the user in question during their time with the team acknowledging that we'd been showing them different ways to earn TPE outside of practice facility and welfare, I sent the appropriate screenshots to Gustav.

[Spartan 4,408]

2 minutes ago, MubbleFubbles said:

It's actually the other way around, they were traded to us at the deadline. As one of their GMs during this period, this thread came as a surprise because we'd received both PM and discord confirmation from the user in question during their time with the team acknowledging that we'd been showing them different ways to earn TPE outside of practice facility and welfare, I sent the appropriate screenshots to Gustav.

That makes sense, and then the next season I know Masu was having laptop issues and said he'd be quitting after the season. But then 4 seasons in the E on the same team with no improvement or change in earning shows the core issue.

[Lemorse7 1,016]

[leandrofg 1,162]

Alright, I'll chime in. This could have been a constructive post, but it isn't. Good thing it started in the Thunderdome.

 

It was meant to be pointed toward our ability to get people involved with the VHL, but instead somewhere along the way that got lost, and instead we've had the pleasure to shit on the VHLE and, discreetly, the Cologne Express.

 

But alright, mea culpa. Throughout the various times I chatted with Budnik it was not implied that he was unaware of how the VHL worked earning-wise.

 

On 1/25/2023 at 5:18 AM, Gustav said:

 

 

First of all, I don't appreciate this message. Not only is it implying that we do things in a certain way in Cologne, but that we are purposefully trying to hurt someone's time in the VHL. Not saying I expect an apology because I don't, but I would appreciate it if you could not mention me or my team in that regard ever again.

 

In my view, and it is not going to change, my job as a GM is to create the best environment for the member that chooses to be in Cologne. I don't care if they are Max Earners, Top Earners, Welfare Plus earners, or Welfare earners. They will be treated in the exact same way. Not only that, my messages won't ever be "hey, you should try to do the Press Conference this week." or "hey, you should try doing trivia". That's reserved for the appropriate channels we have on our Discord, where the whole team gets pinged. My job won't ever be to increase someone's production, instead, I will accept the time people are willing to give out of their day while giving the most tools I'm able to create, so if there's any possibility or interest that someone wants to increase their involvement they will find the help they need.

 

On 1/25/2023 at 5:18 AM, Gustav said:

This kind of thing makes my stomach turn. I could never win anything at any level as a GM, but something that no one can ever take away from me is that I put my heart and soul into making my teams all they could be for my players. Some people can even do that and win, which is incredible. Part of the reason why I stopped GMing is that I felt I wasn't up to my own standard of what I felt a GM should be anymore, but even near the end, when I knew I was lacking in some respects, I'd be pinging my lower earners once in a while and checking in, and I'd try to ping all my players and prospects at the start of the season with a reminder about where to find earning opportunities and an open invitation to come to our press conference at any time. I even automated part of this by having MEE6 ping anyone who accepted a special role every week. Since my tenure as a whole isn't going to go down in the history books as much of anything, though, I'll get off my high horse in this paragraph and move on to what I think this proves about our league.

 

As stated before, these tools are all integrated into the Express Locker Room. You have a Trivia channel, where everyone gets pinged, where I share my questions and my know-how on working the forum and/or portal to find those answers. You have a category developed to show every earning opportunity around the VHL (which is actually in need of an update, since the career tasks changed). You have a built helping channel where everyone can share their experience and their goals. Every tool is made to help a player get involved with the VHL - at their own pace. And yes, Budnik, was one of the players who took advantage of this and re-rolled before S85. And his production increased, by quite a lot! For me, that's the best way to retention for a first-get player. You don't come into the VHL looking to be a role-player, and he stopped being one.

 

On 1/25/2023 at 5:18 AM, Gustav said:

I know that most members of the league have disagreements with many of the posts made by Tate before he left--and while I actually am in that group, as anti-mod as I am sometimes, one nail he absolutely managed to hit on the head was that retention efforts should never stop past the VHLM. Do we just feel that we don't need to help our players when they graduate? If we draft a clicker, do we consider that all they'll ever be and hope we can ship them to a tanking team in their graduation year (in the VHL) or hope their earning never speeds up and that they stay down to help me win games as long as I can possibly keep them (in the E)? Does anyone recognize that on the other side of the screen is a real person, with goals and dreams and hobbies and needs of their own, someone who might have joined our community on a bad day, who might want (or even need) to make a few friends to talk to and to have something fun to do to take their mind off of whatever's getting them down--or do we just see a liability that we'd just as soon get rid of as take 3 minutes to talk to? We talk all about how we're into helping the new members, but never recognize that a lot of the time, we're just referring to those new members that it's actually cool to help--those who show their own drive and initiative in reaching out to you to solve their confusion and making your job easy.

 

Continuing on the last paragraph. No, the retention efforts should not stop, but what does retention look like at the VHLE level? What does retention look like at the VHL level? As it has been discussed, Budnik's career started in rough waters, with GM turnover, and such, but still... would an active user not find help? Alright, let's say he didn't find help during two seasons in the M. Even so, he was drafted at the beginning of his second season into a VHLE and a VHL team. From the point he was drafted, he spent one season in the M, where technically he would have access to three Locker Rooms/General Managers (VHL/E/M). He then graduates and would have access to two different LRs/GMs for the next two seasons. We're now into S85, it's been 4 seasons since he joined and nobody caught the fact that a player doesn't know how to earn? I highly doubt that. It's my turn in Cologne. I speak directly with every player that's returning from the previous season, Budnik included and we have the first of many chats - no red flags about earning are raised. Then I come back and he chat about renewing his contract since he was entering his 4th season in the E and as we go on, no flags are raised. We chat about turning Budnik McDangle into a better player since his build wasn't very good... we chat about other things about the VHL and hockey in general, and NO FLAGS ARE RAISED. To this point... what is the end goal? Asking a member about their earnings and trying to pump them up about it? Every single one of us in this forum has a real life, with real problems, and this for many provides an escape, which I will not be trying to ruin by spitting out tasks for people to do. Curiosity will do its part and it may not be as a first-gen.

 

On 1/25/2023 at 5:18 AM, Gustav said:

The VHLM has failed this player. The VHL has failed this player. And the VHLE has clearly failed this player. Every team this player was a part of could have done better, and this doesn't happen by accident to one person, once. It's an indicator that we've got a certain unspoken culture in league management, whether or not any GM in particular is part of it, that very much exists in general and needs to be talked about.

 

This one could have been a particularly good one because I agree. Partially, but I agree. What I mean by this is that the members should know about earning opportunities, and if that is true I have also failed, but to a player that's active enough, our Locker Room in Cologne is more than able to fulfill that goal. We have a popular saying in Portugal that goes something like this, "worse than the blind are those who don't want to see".

 

And I'll correct the following: The VHLM has failed this player. The VHL has failed this player. And the VHLE has clearly failed this player.

 

On 1/25/2023 at 5:18 AM, Gustav said:

To end on a less holier-than-thou note--what do you think the league could do to do better? I'm going to start by challenging GMs (and welcoming anyone else who would like to join in) to do one simple thing--reach out to a clicker today. Check in, ask what's up, make sure they're aware of opportunities to earn in our league (especially the easy ones!), and make it clear that you're there to help if needed. If you do that, I grant you permission to tell me to fuck off in this thread, in as many insulting words as you'd like.

 

I have a player in Cologne, Keon Jeannot, whose member's birthday is today. He's a "clicker" by your account. I've chatted with him and wished him a happy birthday, but I'll let you go show him the link to our Press Conference.

Edited January 26, 2023 by leandrofg

[Spartan 4,408]

8 minutes ago, leandrofg said:

Not only that, my messages won't ever be "hey, you should try to do the Press Conference this week." or "hey, you should try doing trivia". That's reserved for the appropriate channels we have on our Discord, where the whole team gets pinged. My job won't ever be to increase someone's production, instead, I will accept the time people are willing to give out of their day while giving the most tools I'm able to create, so if there's any possibility or interest that someone wants to increase their involvement they will find the help they need.

I'll start by saying the resources and tools you mentioned overall in your post are fantastic, and your approach for LR activity is also great. At the same time, I will acknowledge that from personal experience this is one of the least effective methods for actually getting a member to do something new, or to teach someone something new. 

 

I have rarely had success with team pings to get prospects or non-max earners to do a task or claim things. I find that the only time I have success is with one on one interaction and outreach by me. I'm not trying to flame your approach or say you're doing it all wrong since the LR component is great for retention. I just think that the approach for development could be tweaked. Plenty of newbies will just mute the team server or role pings and never see them again. DM's can be blocked as well, sure, but I've found that reaching out directly and bringing a personal approach is a lot more effective. We can't always expect new players to self serve and be independent even if we centralize resources, they still need guidance with a personal touch - that's what GM's are for.

[leandrofg 1,162]

14 minutes ago, Spartan said:

I'll start by saying the resources and tools you mentioned overall in your post are fantastic, and your approach for LR activity is also great. At the same time, I will acknowledge that from personal experience this is one of the least effective methods for actually getting a member to do something new, or to teach someone something new. 

 

I have rarely had success with team pings to get prospects or non-max earners to do a task or claim things. I find that the only time I have success is with one on one interaction and outreach by me. I'm not trying to flame your approach or say you're doing it all wrong since the LR component is great for retention. I just think that the approach for development could be tweaked. Plenty of newbies will just mute the team server or role pings and never see them again. DM's can be blocked as well, sure, but I've found that reaching out directly and bringing a personal approach is a lot more effective. We can't always expect new players to self serve and be independent even if we centralize resources, they still need guidance with a personal touch - that's what GM's are for.

I’m definitely not saying the methods I have put in place are perfect. They are more related to the kind of person I am. I would not like to be bothered of I weren’t the active user I am. This is also one of the best reasons why I think everyone should have an AGM. Not only that, but the AGM position should recognized as a job as well because of it. This is another topic, but what I’m trying to put out is that people have different have different management styles and both can make a difference.

 

And, in this case, I don’t think I can message a person to check in on them, but with the secondary reason to push a task on them. I will work on this, for sure, because this situation needs to be addressed. I will make sure to ask the players about their involvement in the league, but not to push tasks. Instead, I will try to collect information about their involvement level and pass any interesting feedback to the recruitment team.

 

To your point, I will adjust my approach. I owe it to this mishap, even if it seems like it isn’t completely true. 

[Spartan 4,408]

1 minute ago, leandrofg said:

I’m definitely not saying the methods I have put in place are perfect. They are more related to the kind of person I am. I would not like to be bothered of I weren’t the active user I am. This is also one of the best reasons why I think everyone should have an AGM. Not only that, but the AGM position should recognized as a job as well because of it. This is another topic, but what I’m trying to put out is that people have different have different management styles and both can make a difference.

 

And, in this case, I don’t think I can message a person to check in on them, but with the secondary reason to push a task on them. I will work on this, for sure, because this situation needs to be addressed. I will make sure to ask the players about their involvement in the league, but not to push tasks. Instead, I will try to collect information about their involvement level and pass any interesting feedback to the recruitment team.

 

To your point, I will adjust my approach. I owe it to this mishap, even if it seems like it isn’t completely true. 

I think this is just an overall GM challenge, not one specific to you and you shouldn't feel like a bad GM regardless. I have struggled as well in the past because I'm not super organized and forget to check in on people frequently enough. I've lost prospects to inactivity as well. I think it just takes constant reflection on what we do as GMs and a willingness to change up your approach to see what works and what doesn't. Cheers for being open-minded and willing to speak your mind!

[jacobcarson877 2,541]

I think its kind of harsh to say the GMs have failed this player. I've gone and checked, every single one of them made the information available, and in every reasonable way made it as easy as possible for the player to do tasks. We can't force players to do tasks. It is not a failure for the player or the GM to not have them do tasks. It is perfectly reasonable to only click welfare and practice facility, I mean there are GMs at every level that this is their earning strategy. I think it's 100% fair to say if the player wanted to, they would have at this point. Obviously reaching out in private can help, and there are plenty of players that I've worked with almost exclusively through DMs, but it was never "you should do this task", it was always a "hey I see your earning has lowered/stopped, how's it going, and is there anything I can do to help you out?".

How long would you expect someone to exist in this league and watch the other players earn more TPE, and do better in the sims, and talk about their tasks, and maybe read tasks and not once come to the conclusion that you were missing something? The player isn't dumb, and the information was made available. Someone mentioned this in another thread, but plenty of us high and mighty earning members started off as welfare players. Sometimes you just need to sit back and observe for a while, see a career through before engaging in tasks.

 

Can we not celebrate that the player made it to the VHL, after dedicating so much of their time to get there? Is it not a testament to how GOOD of a job the GMs have done, keeping a player engaged despite not seeing much week-to-week progress? Is it not amazing to see another cheap player available to the VHL GMs to fill out their rosters? Is this not exactly what GMs have been begging for across all of the leagues for years? I'm confused why we're using this as an opportunity to criticize each other.

Sorry this player isn't good enough for you, but I'm taking the opportunity to celebrate the fact that they just played their first 2 VHL games, and I'll be rooting them on for the rest of their career.

[leandrofg 1,162]

21 minutes ago, Spartan said:

I think this is just an overall GM challenge, not one specific to you and you shouldn't feel like a bad GM regardless. I have struggled as well in the past because I'm not super organized and forget to check in on people frequently enough. I've lost prospects to inactivity as well. I think it just takes constant reflection on what we do as GMs and a willingness to change up your approach to see what works and what doesn't. Cheers for being open-minded and willing to speak your mind!

 

Oh, I don't. I most certainly do not feel like a bad GM. Hell, I consider myself a pretty good GM. I wouldn't mind going around the league and getting honest feedback from every player I've encountered during my time as a GM and AGM.

 

But, to your point, this is a very direct post with a very direct message. And at the end of the message, at the moment, it's me. I'll stand in for all of Budnik's GMs, because I was the last.

 

I'm very happy that Budnik made it to the VHL after so much time in the "VHL." I'm very happy, because of the impact we had on him in Cologne which has led him to this opportunity. Because the VHL, which now stands on the high-horse shouting down, quit on Budnik two seasons ago.

[JB123 728]

I have been debating about commenting here, and I’ve decided I will. I think the image is a bit misleading. When I first signed Budnik, I walked them through earning and showed them how to claim a press conference, which they did. I then told them about graphics and media spots, and the requirements/TPE amount, and gave them some ideas as well. At the time I had also made a slideshow presentation for earning with all relevant info, which was posted in the San Diego locker room.

 

I’m certainly not blaming Budnik at all, it’s obviously a lot to take in for new members. I just wanted to say what happened. I have always tried my best to make myself available to help, and stepped down from M GMing when my schedule couldn’t handle it anymore. My priority was always developing rather than winning, as evidenced by the fact that I didn’t trade an active player away in our rebuilding year. While it would have gained us assets, it would not have been good for the league and development to have such few players on the team. 

[KaleebtheMighty 1,509]

Above all else, this should be treated as a learning experience, not finger pointing or tearing anyone down. We found a situation where questions were raised and a hole in development has been identified.

 

People forget they were told things all the time, and it's a chaotic world where as a player you may be told 3 different things by multiple GMs. I have so many channels on discord and places I interact it's tough to keep tabs on everything, I get it. Balance in real life, a real job, families, hell there's a lot going on.

 

What we need to focus on is the process by which these players learn to develop. Maybe a rework of an introductory session when a player joins is needed? Could we incorporate a video to watch here in the forums that goes through how to earn and participate? What about a section of the recruitment team that operates as a retention team that works to keep the players we already have? Because to me, we seem to bring players in fairly well and then let them go their merry way, some resulting in a bad overall experience. We leave keeping tabs on them to the GMs who are interested in putting together a good team and keeping players interested. Why not work on something like a group here where their sole focus is not to moderate or police, not to review or approve posts, but to really focus on keeping people interested, engaged, and earning in whatever way they want? Like a VHL Help Line, there for new players and old whenever questions need answered or someone needs a little poke to keep earning.

Anyways, there's my thoughts, time to retreat back into my Malmo dungeon and watch you all from a distance...

[AJW 2,157]

3 hours ago, MubbleFubbles said:

It's actually the other way around, they were traded to us at the deadline. As one of their GMs during this period, this thread came as a surprise because we'd received both PM and discord confirmation from the user in question during their time with the team acknowledging that we'd been showing them different ways to earn TPE outside of practice facility and welfare, I sent the appropriate screenshots to Gustav.

 

This is why I'll always love you Mubble

[Gustav 6,430]

I'm going to take this opportunity to half-apologize as I've gotten multiple messages both in and out of this thread over the past couple days that do indicate that in this particular case, things have been explained to enough of an extent that the player should have been reasonably expected to have some idea of what was going on.

 

That said, I definitely do not apologize for being pissed off when I saw someone saying that they had spent the last year-plus without any explanation of anything being given. It's my job to stick up for new members in need of development, and having what seemed like an complete bullshit situation floated right to me behind the scenes would require absolutely zero walking back on my part if entirely true.

 

So yes, perhaps the situation may be slightly different, but I fully stand by every word of what I said if it weren't.

 

 

5 hours ago, jacobcarson877 said:

Can we not celebrate that the player made it to the VHL, after dedicating so much of their time to get there? Is it not a testament to how GOOD of a job the GMs have done, keeping a player engaged despite not seeing much week-to-week progress? Is it not amazing to see another cheap player available to the VHL GMs to fill out their rosters? Is this not exactly what GMs have been begging for across all of the leagues for years? I'm confused why we're using this as an opportunity to criticize each other.

 

This is entirely true--but it's not about good management when what you're being told is "I'm not earning more because no one ever told me how to" vs. "I'm not earning more because that's how I choose to enjoy the league." One of those is ENTIRELY OK and honestly probably more along the lines of this specific situation, while the other--what I'd heard it was initially--is absolutely not OK and absolutely is a reason to go nuclear on the forum. I absolutely love your comment, but it's easy for someone skimming this thread to read it and take away "Gustav hates lower earners", so I'd rather clear up the distinction.

 

Here's why the underlying point still stands:

 

You said it yourself yesterday when you wrote about how you're frustrated with watching players leave your team and go inactive elsewhere--and even mentioned that there are teams that you don't want your players going to due to poor histories of development. And we talked about the same exact thing in the M this week when we GMs that we asked about it largely agreed that we're having some issues keeping our first-gens as active as we used to. I'm hoping that, at the very least, this thread serves as a wake-up call to people who may need one. The next time we see teams slacking off and players being ignored, I hope it gets a similarly strong response even if this one may have been only kinda half that way.

 

And I do think that we deal with situations similar to this more than most people think. No one is going to notice a lower earner not being talked to or GMs not reaching out behind the scenes, but it's been common knowledge for quite a while that in general, we'll occasionally have problems with those who don't max out being stigmatized or not being helped. Why do you think you don't want your players ending up in some places? It's probably for those reasons, and you're certainly against those reasons being what they are. So if someone reads my post and thinks, "wow, the league could use a good kick in the pants"--good, because it could. I acknowledge that I missed the specific mark, but I still think I hit the general one.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Gustav